posted
The State of Kentucky had a firm design them a new "brand" or logo design to be placed on everything from licenses to letterheads. The firm that did it only charged them 645,000. I really coulda done that for maybe one third of that amount. This is complete and utter bulls***! Read it here. New logo
-------------------- Maker of fine signs and other creative stuff. Located at 109 N. Cumberland ave. Harlan, Ky. 40831 606-837-0242 Posts: 4172 | From: Ages-Brookside, Ky. Up the Holler... | Registered: Jul 1999
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posted
Pretty embarrassing, isn't it? But only a couple years ago, KY also spent a bundle for some corporate flunky to design a Happy Face for the standard-issue car tags! I'm not making this up, am I?
As with the bogus new UCLA logo, somebody's bound to lecture us about "perceived" value. Well, let them "perceive" value with "perceived" tax revenue.
-------------------- Bruce Williams Lexington KY Posts: 945 | From: Lexington, KY, USA | Registered: Mar 1999
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-------------------- Maker of fine signs and other creative stuff. Located at 109 N. Cumberland ave. Harlan, Ky. 40831 606-837-0242 Posts: 4172 | From: Ages-Brookside, Ky. Up the Holler... | Registered: Jul 1999
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posted
The billed for over 1000 hours on that logo. I have no doubt that most Letterville dwellers could kick some logo butt if we could spend even a hundred hours on a logo.
Makes one wonder, what's the secret of landing a project like that? It would be awfully cool if we could put our finger on the answer to that question. (But, I've got a hunch that wearing a 3 piece suit is involved somewhere in there...dammit)
posted
You got that right, Don. The suit AND having the word DESIGNER behind your name. We've had to fight that stuff for years. And we go into the office, quote them $1500 and they say, "WHAT???Are you crazy??!!"
Go figure.
-------------------- Dale Feicke Grafix 714 East St. Mendenhall, MS 39114
"I can do all things through Christ, who strengthens me." Posts: 2963 | From: Mendenhall, MS | Registered: Apr 1999
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posted
Yes, that is so similiar to the mustang horse. Loks like soemone just copied the logo, tweaked it and shipped it.
I wonder it that horse head will draw some interest from Ford motors.. ??
-------------------- Leaper of Tall buildings.. If you find my posts divisive or otherwise snarky please ignore them. If you do not know how then PM me about it and I will demonstrate. Posts: 5274 | From: Im a nowhere man | Registered: Jul 2001
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posted
Hey, you guys have the wrong idea! We all need to raise our prices to that level and then we only need 1 job every couple of years. Kudos to the guy that pulled this off, I'm sure he is sitting someplace sunny with a grin on his face.
-------------------- “Did you ever stop to think, and forget to start again?” -Winnie the Pooh & A.A. Milne
Kelly Thorson Kel-T-Grafix 801 Main St. Holdfast, SK S0G 2H0 ktg@sasktel.net Posts: 5496 | From: Penzance, Saskatchewan | Registered: May 2002
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posted
I don't understand, why would they care. Most here have never worked on a major branding and picking up files from an "agency" doesn't count as experience. I think professionals from sites like:
"Some are born to move the world, to live their fantasies. But most of us just dream about the things we'd like to be." - Rush Posts: 1192 | From: Washington, NJ | Registered: Feb 1999
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If you base pricing on a normal identity for an entity like a state logo it is cheap....
Kentucky's annual expenditures: 19,500,000,000.00 Annual advertising amount: 12-14,000,000.00 in relation to the amounts of money generated already 650k seems like chump change......to them at least...
If it does represent Kentucky for the next 10 years that logo is also supporting around 140,000,000.00 in advertising dollars as well
posted
Dan, You're right!! We've had a lot of discussions on this board about selling value intead of "signs by the pound" and this seems to be a good example of that theory put into practice. Two quotes from the first story on this really caught my eye,
"Unbridled Spirit" has been quite a bargain, according to Commerce Secretary Jim Host, the sports marketing executive who made juggling the state's various advertising campaigns a top priority when he joined state government."
"When you put all state government agencies under one umbrella, with a unified marketing strategy, it involves far more planning, research, and implementation than is required for a simple change of logo and motto," Host said in his written statement.
This thread,along with the links that Rick & Jeff posted sure opened my eyes to a market I hadn't really seen in action before. I don't currently have the talent or resources to play in that game but I think we can all learn something from those that do.
p.s. At least Kentucky got a horse with their brand, .....for $700,000 we got "Kansas - As big as you think"
-------------------- Chris Elliott 1longshot@classicnet.net cell 62084two2232 Posts: 686 | From: Scottsdale, AZ & Anthony, KS, USA | Registered: Dec 1999
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posted
But the problem is that we are "Only" Sign Painters, we don't have the expertise to design corporate brand identity. Now where did I put that piece of coro? Oh schit I just spilled my coffee all over it #%#@$#..
-------------------- "Keep Positive"
SIGNS1st. Neil Butler Paradise, NF Posts: 6277 | From: St. John's NF Canada | Registered: Mar 1999
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posted
There are a bunch of us on here that couldve done that design better or as good. I aint giving kudos to this design firm for nothing. Its absolutely way too high of a price for a "brand". And it didnt take 1000 hours for them to design it either. They probably did it in a week and billed for that much. It pretty much took one heckuva dumba** to agree to that amount, and we have our fair share of those in state government.
-------------------- Maker of fine signs and other creative stuff. Located at 109 N. Cumberland ave. Harlan, Ky. 40831 606-837-0242 Posts: 4172 | From: Ages-Brookside, Ky. Up the Holler... | Registered: Jul 1999
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posted
"Unbridled Spirit" has been quite a bargain, according to Commerce Secretary Jim Host, the sports marketing executive who made juggling the state's various advertising campaigns a top priority when he joined state government." ---------------------------- Sports marketing, indeed! Now, convert that "bargain" into tax reductions for the people of KY. C'mon Jimbo; your move.
-------------------- Bruce Williams Lexington KY Posts: 945 | From: Lexington, KY, USA | Registered: Mar 1999
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posted
Thats the problem, you need a overpriced coffee where the beans were picked by coffee nymphs and every bean packaged individually in bubble wrapped Then when you spill it in your overpriced G5 Mac, the coffee stain can be interpreted as an aberration from the design gods, reinterpreted to an overly stated manifesto and then presented as pure functional design in a conceptual context in a tone of servile flattery, all the while having animadversion for anyone who is critical of the work.
[ January 18, 2005, 11:38 AM: Message edited by: Rick Chavez ]
-------------------- Rick Chavez Hemet, CA Posts: 1539 | From: Hemet,CA U.S.A. | Registered: Jun 2001
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posted
I agree with John, many here could have done a better job, there was probably better ideas shot down. The reality is that Branding has always been 5% design the rest filled with meeting about having meetings to where everyone is going to meet, then rediscuss, after the meeting notes have been reviewed.
-------------------- Rick Chavez Hemet, CA Posts: 1539 | From: Hemet,CA U.S.A. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Identity packages typically run in this order of magnitude. One take away for a sign shop could be how to package an identity proposition to capitalize on their true value ?
posted
A lot of money for sure. Overpriced? Maybe, but if they got that for it, more power to them. As far as the similarities to the Mustang logo, any stylyized pony/horse done in a side view is gonna look something like the Mustang logo, it can't be helped.
What strikes me about the winning design, even more than the price,is the horrible treatment of the en and ck combinations. What the hell is that all about??????
-------------------- George Perkins Millington,TN. goatwell@bigriver.net
"I started out with nothing and still have most of it left"
posted
Nepotism....nephew art to the enth degree? It is nicer than that UCLA logo tho. Love....Jill
-------------------- That is like a Mr. Potato Head with all the pieces in the wrong place. -Russ McMullin Posts: 8834 | From: Butler, PA, USA | Registered: Jan 2001
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posted
At least it looks like someone put some thought into it and didn't just type UCLA. I have changed my thoughts on this some since the ucla logo. If they can get that price good for them. If you split that million bucks up on all the things it will be used on it's probably pennies per item. If we all knew how much this happened we would be very surprised. I would like to know how they come up with their $ figures. Is it still a crazy amount of money?-yes. If we only knew what large companys and governments spent on things we would be disgusted. Most of us probably don't know how these design companys work either, just like most people don't have a clue about what goes into making a sign.
-------------------- Eric PA Posts: 149 | From: Intercourse, PA | Registered: Jun 2004
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posted
"I have changed my thoughts on this some since the ucla logo. If they can get that price good for them. If you split that million bucks up on all the things it will be used on it's probably pennies per item" ------------------------ Depends. When the UCLA "art" came up here, someone pointed out that it didn't do anything for the students; i.e. tuition, textbooks and all the other extortion fees.
If a private business wants to worship and tithe the Holy Logo -- totally in the free market -- that's their, uh, freedom-of-religion. Nobody forces me to buy name-brand trinkets and amusements. But somebody does force me to pay Kentucky taxes, and they can sit on their Holy Logo and then go look for it.
-------------------- Bruce Williams Lexington KY Posts: 945 | From: Lexington, KY, USA | Registered: Mar 1999
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posted
one time while in Kentucky we were at the local Wal-mart and found a shoppers list.
On it were:
Mirical wipe
butter becon icecream
and a few other things I forget
It was on the back of an envelope with postmark of Kentucky's old slogan saying, 'Kentucky, where education pays'
-------------------- Jerry VanHorn, Pres. Pure Sports Designs, LLC Pro Sign Design / United Wholesale Signs www.prosigndesign.comwww.unitedwholesalesigns.com West Liberty, OH 937-465-0595 866-942-3990 Since 1990 Posts: 925 | From: West :Liberty, OH | Registered: May 2004
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posted
One of the keys to landing a contract like this isn't whether you can build them a better goldberg than what they have,it's selling yourself and giving them an image of you they feel comfortable with. Often said here 'image is everything'....and the bottom line is that a "design firm" with 6 people working in it downtown somewhere with a slick name and logo is going to win the image war everytime over Joe from Joe's Signs who works out of his garage. They probably met with a couple of people once or twice,maybe it was a bid job and they were the only ones that spent $$ to bid, or they liked what they had to say and whether they had the ability to back it up or not wasnt as much a concern after the initial meeting as the fact that it looked like they knew what they were doing was. Too many people here wanna believe that the reason customers come their way is because they are simply dazzled by the beauty of their portfolio, and are comfortable telling themselves that over and over again no matter how much its not working for them in reality....those kind of things are great to impress other sign people who understand the bells and whistles but they mean jack squat to committees,civic assoc's and reg customers who think printing their kid a birthday banner on their PC is doing the same thing you do everyday or just dont have a clue what they're looking at beyond "oh that looks nice". They probably got some set and firm price structure if it wasnt specified and didnt get someone telling them,well,it will be about $400 and if you get two i can do the second one for $365. Will they get a better end result? Who the hell knows,thats a matter of opinion on all sides,but it ought to be a wake up call or maybe just a kick in the as* to change the way you do things and go after this kinda work if you like it. All this stuff is a matter of public record once its discussed or even brought up...start keeping track of the legislature transcripts,city council meetings,look up who did past jobs like that and what the contract was worth and start pushing yourself to em even if it involves smaller jobs than that so they'll consider you when a bigger one rolls around...none of that stuff is hard to find at all and most nowdays will be available online. You can say its not about "percieved value" all you want...but a state with a 700million dollar budget expects to pay more for a service than the guy who is so cheap hes designing his own magnetics in MS WORD.
-------------------- Gavin Chachere Plotter in the garage,New Orleans La.
"Sgts Shugart and Gordon again request permission to rope down to crash site two" Posts: 1223 | From: new orleans.la. | Registered: Mar 2000
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Whether it takes 1000 hours or 10 hours, you're essentially trying to base the price on some hourly rate, thereby commodicizing the actual identity.
It's not really about how long it takes, its about the value the design has in branding the state.
When you bang out a nice logo design (as you surely can) in two hours, do you sell it for less than if it took 4? The fact that it took you only two hours doesnt make worth less in terms of the value to the client.
Lets talk 'real' numbers here for a second.
1000 for a basic small business logo -over the course of 10 years is a $100 a year. Try that perspective to the client who thinks $1000 is too much for a logo for their business.
"Some are born to move the world, to live their fantasies. But most of us just dream about the things we'd like to be." - Rush Posts: 1192 | From: Washington, NJ | Registered: Feb 1999
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posted
Thanks Jerry for reaffirming the stereotype of us "Hillbillies". You could probably find the same note in a wal-mart up there amongst them buckeyes.
-------------------- Maker of fine signs and other creative stuff. Located at 109 N. Cumberland ave. Harlan, Ky. 40831 606-837-0242 Posts: 4172 | From: Ages-Brookside, Ky. Up the Holler... | Registered: Jul 1999
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posted
Years ago a lot of people thought that designer Paul Rand was just a bit over-priced at $100,000 per logo (which actually paid for much more than just the design of the representative symbol) - but he had no shortage of clients willing to pay. I know that for myself, each time I raise my rates I get more, rather than less, work.
I guess my personal problem with these state government project fees is the governments are constantly bitching and moaning about not having enough money - and cutting programs like education on a regular basis. Whether the logo or slogan lasts one year or ten, are the needs of the people of the state best served in these cases?
posted
Amen, to Gavin and Dan. George, I too have issues with uncommon strokes in the letters you noticed.
The reason they are uncommon is because they disrupt the eye flow in comprehending the copy. Basically, in the signworld that translates into: "Now yawl know that when your truck flies by, you'll have to back up and run through here again so they can read all that, doncha?" LOL
Long story short, on a sign it wouldn't work at a glance, but the big guys liked it.
I have to agree, they have what I want...they are established and carry big coin. They got the job. I'm surely not going to be upset at them for doing their job better than I did mine.
It's a nice design, a little wadded up on the letter combos but overall, not too shabby, and flexable with the background dilemna. They solved it, keeping the colors of the American flag as a perk/goal. We have no idea how this was presented and what the design specs were and why. This artwork may have been through more hoops than circus critters.
POINT to Ponder: I heard a preacher speaking this morning, "The journey is the goal." Dan tries to tell us the same thing all the time LOL.
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