Last week I did some custom graphics on a Snowcross Sled hood and sides. My customer called today stating that the vinyl graphics were all dinged and ripped up from ice hitting the sled.
The factory and sponsor decals that come as part of the manditory racing kit where not effected. It seems these decals are thicker and more rigid when installing then just plain ol' vinyl. They also seem to have a stickier adhesive....(Avery brand BTW).
Are these graphics clear coated in a way that makes them more resistant to impact?
Or, is this a special "heavy duty" type of vinyl?
Will spraying clear over regular ol' vinyl with a couple of coats of frog juice protect it enough?
posted
Dave..I do a fair number of sleds, not too much in the way of grapics but lots of Reg numbers. I've never experienced a problem so far BUT I do take care to thoroughly prep the surface with wax and silicone remover.
It is amazing how many coats of wax some of these guys apply to their machines while waiting for the snow to arrive.
Also, I too, use Avery vinyl (2 mil cast)
Forg Juice won't do anything to "strengthen" the vinyl. Spraying with clearcoat "might" strengthen it but it won't stop the vinyl from "ripping up" when it makes contact with ice or rocks or trees!!!!
-------------------- Dave Grundy retired in Chelem,Yucatan,Mexico/Hensall,Ontario,Canada 1-519-262-3651 Canada 011-52-1-999-102-2923 Mexico cell 1-226-785-8957 Canada/Mexico home
posted
i think it's more to do with a good 8 or 10mil thick overlaminate on good high performance vinyl. check out http://www.graphicms.com/product_sheets/GMS%20products/Convex/convex.htm and their "convex" line of materials. it's just the stuff you're needing. and Dave knows more about cold weather application than us in the sunny south, but here's some tips: prep to remove all wax and silicone and apply in warm surroundings (or heat application surface).
-------------------- Scott Pagan Admark Graphic Systems Admark Motorsports Graphics 9700 Metromont Ind Blvd Charlotte, NC 28269 www.admarkgraphics.com Posts: 325 | From: Charlotte, NC | Registered: Nov 2001
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posted
The factory graphics are likely printed in reverse on a heavy clear, then the aggressive adhesive applied to that. Factory stuff and mass printed decals like that do not use overlaminates, they're always "one piece" because production quantities allows them to be made that way and they're more durable too.
You can apply an overlaminate like Scott mentioned, but remember you have to cut the overlam as well as the graphics underneath. You'll also need a laminator to apply the overlaminate with best results, applying it by hand is sketchy at best.
The Pro Shield 12 at GMS is some killer stuff too. I have some of that out on some race jetskis for testing right now to see how it holds up to sunlight and direct impacts with other jetskis on the track. So far so good.
-------------------- "If I share all my wisdom I won't have any left for myself."
Mike Pipes stickerpimp.com Lake Havasu, AZ mike@stickerpimp.com Posts: 8746 | From: Lake Havasu, AZ USA | Registered: Jun 2000
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posted
Thanks for the info guys! Just got off the horn with the folks who sell the ProShield 12. Sounds like this would work great for this application.
My only delemna now is I don't have a laminator and have never had any experience using one in this manner. I think I'll find someone with this equipment and expertise to produce these graphics.
If anyone would be interested in quoting these graphics, e-mail me and I'll send along the file.
I'm also considering redoing with paint and a couple of heavy coats of clear as suggested by Rapid!
posted
I had problems this week with vinyls not adhering to some panels of a new Bombardier sled. Turns out the panels are made from hdpe. Something else to watch out for...
-------------------- Mike O'Neill
It has yet to be proven that intelligence has any survival value. - Arthur C. Clarke
posted
there is material for reverse printing using ink jet printers. Don't know the details tho..
-------------------- Leaper of Tall buildings.. If you find my posts divisive or otherwise snarky please ignore them. If you do not know how then PM me about it and I will demonstrate. Posts: 5273 | From: Im a nowhere man | Registered: Jul 2001
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Have you figured out anything that'll stick to these hdpe panels?
One thing I should have mentioned before. The panels I did were brand new. In fact I took them out of the original wrapping myself. I'm assuming these would be free from any wax etc.. Gave them a good cleaning with denatured alcohol and installed in my home office.
The customer isn't complaining about the graphics "falling off". His only thought was, why is the "factory" decals outperforming my decals, which BTW I produced using 3M hi performance and some Oracal 651 series.
Thanks to you folks I now have an answer for him and a couple of potential solutions to the probelem....
posted
At this point I haven't found a solution that I'm happy with, especially considering that snow machines are rough on graphics at the best of times. The factory graphics work well, so something sticks to this stuff.... research, research, research...
-------------------- Mike O'Neill
It has yet to be proven that intelligence has any survival value. - Arthur C. Clarke
posted
The Convex High Bond is what you need for those HDPE panels, but it only comes in white and clear, as it's intended for thermal/solvent printing.
3M sells a higher bond adhesive for applications like these, and I'm sure that's what's on the Convex film and the OEM graphics. Avery might have a similar adhesive for sale too but I'm not sure.
3M has it available in a spray can so it is possible you could do it yourself albeit a pain in the butt. I saw it on 3M's website, not sure where to get it.
-------------------- "If I share all my wisdom I won't have any left for myself."
Mike Pipes stickerpimp.com Lake Havasu, AZ mike@stickerpimp.com Posts: 8746 | From: Lake Havasu, AZ USA | Registered: Jun 2000
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posted
Thanks Mike for the tip... sounds like the right stuff, laminated it should work well. Anyone know of a Canadian supplier?
quote: Convex High Bond is the same vinyl as Convex, with a high bond adhesive backing. Printable with the Roland PC printers and other thermal transfer and solvent-based printers. For all flexible surfaces including polypropylene, polyethylene, polystyrene and other low energy plastics. 2-year exterior life.
Sorry Roger, My supplier (EM Plastics) does not carry rapid prep. I stock only Rapid Remover & Rapid tac. I did clean the surface with a 3m wax/grease remover. I don't think surface prep is the issue here, these low energy plastics in general are different to deal with.
quote:Originally posted by Mike Pipes: The factory graphics are likely printed in reverse on a heavy clear, then the aggressive adhesive applied to that. Factory stuff and mass printed decals like that do not use overlaminates, they're always "one piece" because production quantities allows them to be made that way and they're more durable too.
pimp, are you seeing much of this on the PWCs? it makes sense to use a nice glossy polycarb and reverse print then add double sided adhesive, but the adhesives i've seen aren't as clear as i would want to do this.
-------------------- Scott Pagan Admark Graphic Systems Admark Motorsports Graphics 9700 Metromont Ind Blvd Charlotte, NC 28269 www.admarkgraphics.com Posts: 325 | From: Charlotte, NC | Registered: Nov 2001
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posted
Scott, are you talking about the adhesive on a clear overlaminate or the adhesive on the second surface printing?
The adhesives on the GMS overlaminates are crystal clear. I've applied Pro Shield 12 over cut vinyl just for giggles and testing, other than the obvious difference in thickness you couldn't tell it was overlaminated, and I did it by hand (it was definitely tricky).
If you print on the back of a clear film (second or sub-surface printing) it doesnt matter what color adhesive you use. You won't see the adhesive because the print will hide it. A silver or grey adhesive will help keep the colors true though.
I've also messed around with the Pro Shield 12 a bit, I've made 15, 27 and 39 mil graphics for experiment. The 15 mil was TOUGH, the 39 mil was bulletproof (and darn near impossible to lay around a curve, LOL).
-------------------- "If I share all my wisdom I won't have any left for myself."
Mike Pipes stickerpimp.com Lake Havasu, AZ mike@stickerpimp.com Posts: 8746 | From: Lake Havasu, AZ USA | Registered: Jun 2000
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I ordered a 60" master roll chopped into 2 16" rolls and a 28" roll. The 16" are for my Matan. At the same time I bought some 'destructive reflective' film, something I've been looking for for a while...
-------------------- Mike O'Neill
It has yet to be proven that intelligence has any survival value. - Arthur C. Clarke
quote:Originally posted by Mike Pipes: Scott, are you talking about the adhesive on a clear overlaminate or the adhesive on the second surface printing?
If you print on the back of a clear film (second or sub-surface printing) it doesnt matter what color adhesive you use. You won't see the adhesive because the print will hide it. A silver or grey adhesive will help keep the colors true though.
my question was on the adhesives (we would prob use like a 3M 386 adhesive) on second surface on the clear poly/lam. if i wanted my graphic to be clear in areas to show through the vehicle color, would the adhesive be clear enough to keep the look of high quality graphic? it's not that we do much in this regard, but trying to think through any issues that could come up if trying to produce graphics this way. for my shop it'd be much easier to print on quality vinyl with the heavy duty laminate and cut.
always trying to learn new processes, good topic!
-------------------- Scott Pagan Admark Graphic Systems Admark Motorsports Graphics 9700 Metromont Ind Blvd Charlotte, NC 28269 www.admarkgraphics.com Posts: 325 | From: Charlotte, NC | Registered: Nov 2001
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posted
aaaaaahhhhhh.... I didn't get that you wanted the vehicle color to show through.
I don't have information on specific adhesives but those used on the GMS High Bond and laminates are definitely of the utmost clarity, as long as you eliminate air.
GMS does have a killer sample package full of items made using different processes, including second surface printing and laminating.
-------------------- "If I share all my wisdom I won't have any left for myself."
Mike Pipes stickerpimp.com Lake Havasu, AZ mike@stickerpimp.com Posts: 8746 | From: Lake Havasu, AZ USA | Registered: Jun 2000
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posted
the sample packs are very classy. i've enjoyed the goodie bag and would like some other work (ahem, you listening sales staff?) to run production on, instead of these fun little samples i do to show off our capabilities.
-------------------- Scott Pagan Admark Graphic Systems Admark Motorsports Graphics 9700 Metromont Ind Blvd Charlotte, NC 28269 www.admarkgraphics.com Posts: 325 | From: Charlotte, NC | Registered: Nov 2001
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