posted
I just can't help the feeling, I need to share this... (for all practical purposes - and yet another learning curve, for me, especially!)
A person, who I thought was a buddy of mine, pulls up to my shop today, in his 16' (available space, previously nekkid) panel van, ... LETTERED! I had a knot in my gut, but managed an acknowledgement:
I say; Hey dude, I see you've got some new stickies on your work truck!
He says; Yeah, what do you think I paid for it?
I say; 3 hundred bucks!
He says; Oh... I paid $345.00, but it's not done yet...
------end of conversation------
Read on, or Reply... I need consoling! (and/or maybe, counseling!) ---------------------------------------
I just can't believe it! I've known this guy for over a decade. He's like a brother to the guys I share my shop with and stops by on a daily basis. NEVER a bad word between us and I've 'given' him (free) race number packages for his 4 wheeler, the past three years! He's thrown me ten bucks during this time. (I know. Go figure)
He just recently changed jobs, acquired a new panel van and asked me for a quote to letter it up like a moving billboard. I met with his boss, on two occasions, first a layout, (he liked it) then revisions and a price. $1200.00, two sides and the rear. (fiberglass/no rivits)
For me, this price was on the (way) low end, for the design I proposed. But, it was just after hurricane Charley, business was nil, there were actually two panel vans to letter, ($2400.00, I could use for insurance deductable) I needed the money and of course, it was for a friend... (now feeling a painful stab in the chest here!) Not to mention, advertising and first impression, for my client! (I stressed this in our meeting)
So, the boss thought the price was a little high. (used to picking low end pricing???) I told him I had to stay firm on the price, since it was the best I could do. (been there, done that - can ya do it for less BS) The boss, needed a couple more estimates so he could see where I was at, in pricing. (I had an 'in' with my buddy, ya know, and was going for a shoot-out, figuring my buddy would clue me in... arrrg!)
To boot; a couple of weeks ago, (I should have known then. Call me nieve.) my (so called) buddy, (Mr. Walks on Toes!) shows up at the shop (as usual) and asks for some cleaning fluid. I knew what he was asking for, and didn't think anything of it and gave him the Rapid Prep. (we have plenty of other solvents here) A short while later, he asks for a squeegee and advise on how to apply 'this' logo. Still, I didn't think anything of it, coz he works for a company that services machinery for this 'known' company. (Surely, the 'company' provides free logo's to sport around town, for free!) He, applied the logo, on the bubble, above the cab, (WET) as I coached him. All the while, using my products, time and such...
Suddenly, came a smack in the face; when he blurted out, he paid $20.00 for the logo, from another sign shop! (someone I know, BTW) BECAUSE, he knew the guy had the logo in his computer!!!!!! (does Mr. Walks on Toes have no shame?) I, was speachless, but managed to say, 'that was a fair price!' (and, it was)
Well, no fear! The lettering job on the panel van is nothing to brag about! Looks NOTHING like my layout, (I didn't hand over the layout, exactly for this purpose) it's a mere portion (in size) of what I proposed and worth every bit of 3 hundred bucks! (now wondering, why I didn't have the opportunity to 'dicker' with Mr. Walks on Toes) My bad?
The company name is black helvetica letters, with a thin red pinline, on an arc! BwwwwaaaHaHaHa! The rest of the lettering is red hel. (purposely abreviated, hel.)
No discredit to the signguy who did it, though... (he knows his stuff and was a mentor to my mentor!) Actually, it's exactly what my buddy asked for from the get-go! (again, go figure!) Easy in, easy out!
--------------------------
At this point, I'm still not clear on the moral of this story. But, the first thing that comes to mind (after typing all this) is; Cheap folks, who know what they want; can definately find where to get it, if someone is willing to listen and offers a fair price; they get the job!
There is definately a lesson in this for me... and, Mr. Walks on Toes ain't gettin' nuttin' else for free...
Cher.
-------------------- Co-Host: SANDCASTLE Panel Jam 'a Dixie Letterhead Reunion' Fort Myers, Florida
Cheryl Lucas a/k/a "Shag" on mIRC Vital Signs & Graphics, Etc. Cape Coral, Florida 239-574-4713 VSignsNgraphics@aol.com Posts: 987 | From: Cape Coral, FL USA | Registered: Aug 2000
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posted
I feel your pain, Cher. Not only is this guy a backstabber, he must be the rudest person in town and have one HUGE set of Peculiar Members.
What did he expect from you? Congratulations on his good deal? You were more than gracious, more kind than he deserved. The thought of all that you've been through, how much that money could have helped you, and how you spent A LOT of time on the estimate must really be sticking in your craw.
I wouldn't let him walk on my toes or through my threshold again. Ever. Nothing like having something rubbed in your face, either.
I am naive at times too, and it is one of my worst qualities. People would walk all over me if I let them, and they often do. The only thing that can be gained from this is the knowledge that he was never really your friend. Walk away from him. Love....Jill
-------------------- That is like a Mr. Potato Head with all the pieces in the wrong place. -Russ McMullin Posts: 8834 | From: Butler, PA, USA | Registered: Jan 2001
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-------------------- Harris Kohen K-Man Pinstriping and Graphix Trenton, NJ "Showing the world that even I can strategically place the pigment where its got to go." Posts: 1739 | From: Trenton, NJ, USA | Registered: Jun 2001
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posted
He aint no friend Cheryl. If he was, he wouldnt have done the things he did. He needs for you to give him a very harsh talking to, and then give him the boot. He'll understand all too well. We all try and see the good side of things, but in this case, there isnt one where you are concerned.
-------------------- Maker of fine signs and other creative stuff. Located at 109 N. Cumberland ave. Harlan, Ky. 40831 606-837-0242 Posts: 4172 | From: Ages-Brookside, Ky. Up the Holler... | Registered: Jul 1999
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posted
Yup, he gotcha in the heart. If and when he comes back (which he will, looking for MORE hand-outs) I would say, "You know, I thought you were my friend. It really bugs me that after all that time I spent with you, and all the things I've done for you, that you turned elsewhere for your stickers. It's not so much that you went to the low-baller, everyone wants a great deal. It's the fact that you thought nothing of coming here and pretty much rubbing it in my face. Please don't darken my doorstep again." How's that? Love....Jill
-------------------- That is like a Mr. Potato Head with all the pieces in the wrong place. -Russ McMullin Posts: 8834 | From: Butler, PA, USA | Registered: Jan 2001
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quote: give him a very harsh talking to, and then give him the boot.
For one, I don't know how to put it and my second concern is, most of my business is 'word of mouth.'
Don't get me wrong, I have 'fired' clients who deserve to be served by someone else...
My mentor, said: "Talk badly about someone, and others will see through you." So, the worst I have to worry about is; I had a nice design and a competive price?
Cher.
-------------------- Co-Host: SANDCASTLE Panel Jam 'a Dixie Letterhead Reunion' Fort Myers, Florida
Cheryl Lucas a/k/a "Shag" on mIRC Vital Signs & Graphics, Etc. Cape Coral, Florida 239-574-4713 VSignsNgraphics@aol.com Posts: 987 | From: Cape Coral, FL USA | Registered: Aug 2000
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quote:"You know, I thought you were my friend. It really bugs me that after all that time I spent with you, and all the things I've done for you, that you turned elsewhere for your stickers. It's not so much that you went to the low-baller, everyone wants a great deal. It's the fact that you thought nothing of coming here and pretty much rubbing it in my face. Please don't darken my doorstep again."
Cher.
***I'll print that out***
-------------------- Co-Host: SANDCASTLE Panel Jam 'a Dixie Letterhead Reunion' Fort Myers, Florida
Cheryl Lucas a/k/a "Shag" on mIRC Vital Signs & Graphics, Etc. Cape Coral, Florida 239-574-4713 VSignsNgraphics@aol.com Posts: 987 | From: Cape Coral, FL USA | Registered: Aug 2000
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posted
Cheryl, People like this don't even realize how something like this effects another person. Probably wasn't rubbing it in your face as much as he was OBLIVIOUS to your feelings. His excuse, if he ever offers one up, is that his boss made all the decisions, he was out of the loop. He knew what was going on, he should have gone to bat for you. I used to get it all the time. "Friends" didn't realize that I DID... chose one: magnetics, trucks, plywood, lettering on windows, etc. It's universal, you're not alone. I know this doesn't make you feel any better, but as they say, misery loves company. We can console you, but the only true consolation is in knowing that you are a better person than he is. As if you needed another lesson... you will learn from this one too!
-------------------- Gene Golden Gettysburg Signs Gettysburg PA 17325 717-334-0200 genegolden@gettysburgsigns.com
"Art is knowing when to stop." Posts: 1578 | From: Gettysburg, PA | Registered: Jun 2003
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This "lowlife" doesn't deserve anything. Don't give him the time of day. Don't allow him back in your shop. Don't even acknowledge his presence. If he ever asks what is wrong with you, answer him with silence. He'll get the picture. People like him aren't worth wasting your breath over.
$300 for a full panel van? Is this in Biafra?
See ya, R.T.
-------------------- R.T.Thomas,AirDesigns/Sign And Airbrush Studio rtart1@earthlink.net
Hattiesburg,MS 39401 Shop 601-584-1000 Cell 601-310-5901 Proud supporter of LETTERVILLE!
"Ahhhhhh.......Juicy Fruit." Posts: 547 | From: Hattiesburg,MS USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Cheryl, it happens.... as you know. Facing him again is hard on you. A similar theme went on in the thread about a cheap stickie signie moving south a couple of weeks ago.
Just mail him a bill for all the things you feel he owes you for. You could maybe put a PS that they were accruing and were part of the job you didn't get, and seeing that they went elsewhere, you are still owed for your time & materials... or something like that.
You might never send it, but write it out anyhow. The thought process can help to clear your head.
-------------------- "Stewey" on chat
"...there are no limits when you aim for perfection..." Jonathan Livingston Seagull Posts: 7014 | From: Highgrove via Toowoomba, Queensland, Australia | Registered: Dec 2002
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whatta dickwad! WTF is wrong people?? i ask myself that many times in a day. i've had similar things happen...ya know, you do someones lettering for years then you drive by and see a 3k gold leaf sign hanging...BUT it amazes me the classless douchebags that walk the face of the earth that we have to come in contact with daily...i don't understand people who just ask and ask for shyt and never even bother to offer compensation. what makes people like this?? were they raised by wolves?? do they think they are so entitled to a free ride that they can't see beyond whats acceptable?
my feelings would be hurt too...i know i wouldn't be real friendly. and if he ever asked me for window cleaner or solvent remover i might have to hand him a can of 3m spray adhesive...with the label peeled off...oh so sorry...your mistake....
-------------------- Karyn Bush Simply Not Ordinary, LLC Bartlett, NH 603-383-9955 www.snosigns.com info@snosigns.com Posts: 3516 | From: Bartlett, NH USA | Registered: Jan 2001
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posted
Cher! I'm not sure I get the story . . .or I'm missin' somethin' . . .Here's what I got after reading the post 3 times . . . .
~You had a friend who you have done work for in the past.
~The friend changed jobs.
~You quoted his new boss prices for a very nice vehicle lettering job plus you added a little more.
~Then you saw the friend driving his bosses vehicle, but already lettered by someone else.
One question I have is what does the $20 logo really mean?? Did your friend get the bad lettering job logo and all for $20 and tell his boss it was $345?? (If that's the case, there's a lotta other issues here . . .)
But this I would like to say, as I feel you are a dear friend . . . you mabey should not mark-up work more....just because you were sick, or the weather was bad, or your Dad died, and you lost work . . . that don't seem right....your prices should be consistent . . . I know it's been rough . . . but being fair & just will pay in the end . . .
But also, for consolation, I say this....sometimes, I choose not to do business with close friends . . . .I'm afraid they will automatically think I want a break and won't charge what the jobs worth (and worse in my local experience, sometimes they don't meet their usual quality . . . )
Mabey, he was afraid it would interfere with your friendship or MABEY he's embarrassed about it because . . . . .
Mabey it was'nt his money to spend . . . . Mabey the whole thing was his bosses fault and he just simply had to do what the boss said . . . . . . ????
I mean mabey he really IS a two-timing, scum-bag, customer . . . but if he WAS indeed a real friend prior to this one event, or a good customer...at least hear his reason . . . .
Cher . . you said he was 'like a brother' . . . if my brother hurt my feelin's, I'd punch him in the face and then we'd ride around and talk, and laff at how disfunctional we think we were raised...and remember all the other stupid stuff he's done . . . lol. . . and if he was a crack-head, I just would'nt take my pocket book (I'm kind'a kiddin' about punchin' him the face . . . )
I tend to agree with Gene. Unless you do a very good, very consistent job of promotion...most people won't ever have a clue of all that you are capable of (and will tend to associate you with one or two products or services). They also don't have a clue about the value of your work...and will tend to take what you do for granted.
I would suggest that any time you decide give anything away for free: send the customer / prospect / friend an invoice at full price, less a discount of 100%. Show them the value of what your giving them. Let them know how generous you are being.
Not surprisingly: I like Ian's suggestion!
-------------------- Jon Aston MARKETING PARTNERS "Strategy, Marketing and Business Development" Tel 705-719-9209 Posts: 1724 | From: Barrie, ON, CANADA | Registered: Sep 2000
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A very wise man named Harry Shirey once told me "Make money on your friends, cause your enemys won't stop by" this friend never even gave you the chance. I too feel your pain. It would have been different if you had been outbid. Keep your chin up dude!
""Good judgment comes from experience; and a lot of that comes from bad judgment" - Will Rogers Posts: 3492 | From: Beautiful Newaygo, Michigan | Registered: Mar 2003
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Cheryl: I feel for you, but at the same time would only give it a second thought as in how to phrase he should go to the $345.00 job guy for freebees as he did such a great job on the van. Your design speaks for itself, he/they wanted cheap and plain, they got cheap and plain. Let him start hanging with the other signguy and see how far he gets, but not far. I consol myself in the fact I've had a few like this come back for a redo, my way. I have the opinion as not to count on anyone or anybody for a fix on any job, I realize everyone shops and I may not, ussually not, be the cheapest. Everyone gets something they deserve, he got a $345 sticker job.
[ November 15, 2004, 11:48 PM: Message edited by: Michael Latham ]
-------------------- Michael A Latham Tee's Me Shirt & Sign 16462 Jefferson Davis Highway Colonial Heights Va. 804-835-3299 signdogopie@aol.com Posts: 379 | From: Colonial Heights, Virginia | Registered: Feb 2004
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Cheryl, if this had happened to me (and it could ), it would make me very angry and disappointed.
If there is any lesson to learn, it's maybe that there was a comunication problem. It looks to me, like the customer never wanted to spend more than $300 or so, and your attempt to upsell didn't work. Of course he could have simply said, "What can you do for under $500?" and you could have given him a smaller, simpler job for his money, but that would require some brains and tact, and he obviously doesn't have either.
Next time he comes around, tell him nicely, "I have 98% of very happy customers, and then there is a few with the potential to be someone elses very happy customers. I believe you are one of them. Good luck." Smile, then walk away.
posted
Been there, did that....I have to agree wholeheartedly with RT, with silence, they don't deserve another utterance on your part. If it was me, they'd never see me again or know why, banish them from your head, entirely, they don't exist. It drives em crazy. Also, if shop was mine and not shared, he'd be 86'd forever, if shared, I'd start a campaign to have him gone.
In old days, he'd be in a hospital and I'd be begging bail money, but age has taught me that revenge is best served cold. And in most cases, not my duty. Forget them, chaulk up another one, it's God testing your mettle, it's that simple for me now.
-------------------- Frank Magoo, Magoo's-Las Vegas; fmagoo@netzero.com "the only easy day was yesterday" Posts: 2365 | From: Las Vegas, Nv. | Registered: Jun 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Cheryl Lucas: ~So, the boss thought the price was a little high
~I told him I had to stay firm on the price
~The boss, needed a couple more estimates
I know it stings right nor Cheryl, but it looks like there were some clear warnings of trouble that you missed. Sometimes I get my designer's hat on so tight i can't hear people telling me they need an economy version. There've also been times I went through the exercise of submitting cheaper alternatives and still gotten the primo job. You never really know, and it's real easy to miss the signals. But your friend is still clueless.
SONGPAINTER Original Sign Music by Sign People NOW AVAILABLE on CD and the proceeds go to Letterville's favorite charity! Click Here for Sound Clips! Posts: 1974 | From: Orleans, MA, Cape Cod, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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i keep sayin it...IDIOTS WHO THINK THEY ARE SIGN MAKERS JUST CAUSE THEY OWN A PLOTTER!!!!!
-------------------- joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-637-1519 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
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quote:Originally posted by Kathy Joiner: Cher, I just chanted a south Louisiana spell that my buddy Marie taught me. Your "friend" is now rendered useless as a man!
kathy remind me to never cross you!!
-------------------- Jerry VanHorn, Pres. Pure Sports Designs, LLC Pro Sign Design / United Wholesale Signs www.prosigndesign.comwww.unitedwholesalesigns.com West Liberty, OH 937-465-0595 866-942-3990 Since 1990 Posts: 925 | From: West :Liberty, OH | Registered: May 2004
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quote:Originally posted by old paint: i keep sayin it...IDIOTS WHO THINK THEY ARE SIGN MAKERS JUST CAUSE THEY OWN A PLOTTER!!!!!
OP
I have a similar saying: Just because you have a hammer, it does not mean you know how to build a house.
-------------------- Jerry VanHorn, Pres. Pure Sports Designs, LLC Pro Sign Design / United Wholesale Signs www.prosigndesign.comwww.unitedwholesalesigns.com West Liberty, OH 937-465-0595 866-942-3990 Since 1990 Posts: 925 | From: West :Liberty, OH | Registered: May 2004
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Sorry you got stung Cheryl. We've all been there.
Joe Rees says it best for me too. It may simply have been that the customer had a much lower budget. If they deny your super duper version, you could always come back and ask what their budget is and you will devise up a plan to suit, but that would mean removing bells and whistles, not just lowering the price. You could emphasise, "I can't go a penny lower on THIS design as is, however..."
I had a customer come to me requesting my heat gun and glue adhesive for the day. He wanted to remove some lettering on something. I told him point blank that although I'd love to help him, (LOL) I used my tools and products daily and couldn't make a living without them and sent him to the nearest lumber yard type store. He eventually had me do the work after all...
posted
I think in retrospect, that it would have been a good idea to show him the plain layout he obviously wanted, as well as your more artistic version, so he could see both of them side by side. That way, if he STILL wanted the plain jane version, you would have stood a chance of doing the job. BTW..what would you have charged for the plain version?
The way it went down, it sounds like the boss thought you would only do the version you showed him, which may have been out of his budget. This is where your friend messed up. I feel like he knew his boss only wanted the plain job, yet he led you on to believe there was still a chance of you doing the job.
And I think it was totally tactless for you friend to come by and do the logo install at your shop with your materials. He deserves to be talked to, honestly, about how you feel. Don't worry about what to say or how to say it, just start out with " You know, this whole thing has been really bothering me, and we need to talk". If he's a true friend, he will sit down with you, and the 2 of you can air it all out. I don't believe friends should freeze each other out and not talk because something happened.
Someone said once, that a true friend walks in the door when the rest of the world walks out. There's nothing to be afraid of with this guy...just talk about it all, and you'll soon find out where you stand with him.
And there are people I know who are friends after 30 years, but who I won't do business with, because I have been burned everytime. Why are they still friends? Well, let's just say that I see their business ways as faults, and I think you just have to accept some peoples faults and ask yourself can you still like them even with the faults? If the answer is yes, then you got something to work with.
-------------------- Jeff Ogden 8727 NE 68 Terr. Gainesville FL, 32609 Posts: 2138 | From: 8827 NE 68 Terr Gainesville Fl 32609 | Registered: Aug 2002
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Thats really hurts! If this guy was a real friend, at least he would have been straight with you and said "my boss is going with a cheaper layout" instead of proudly driving up to rub your face in it.
I was thinking along the same line as some others. I think we can all learn from this example. He did say he wanted black and red helvetica in the first place, and you didn't listen to that. I have done the same thing, and the light went on that sometimes you've gotta do the nasty and take the money! I drove by a billboard one day and got that awful feeling in the pit of my stomach that "I'd been had". They layout was ugly, and more importantly, way too much copy and hard to read. I even asked the fellow why he didn't go with me, because our quotes were almost identical. He liked the original design, and didn't like me trying to change it. I now make sure to ask if I can suggest improvements.
You can bet he would never get one more freeby letters from me!!!
Suelynn
-------------------- "It is never too late to be what you might have been." -George Eliot
Suelynn Sedor Sedor Signs Carnduff, SK Canada Posts: 2863 | From: Carnduff, SK Canada | Registered: Nov 1998
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No. 1... Your "friend" probably did not make the decision. He works for the man that made the decision. The "boss" was probably told that you would letter his van for $1200, and then told that someone else would letter his van for $345.
If you went to buy something from a friend(the "boss" doesn't even consider you a friend) and they priced it to you for $1200, and then someone else offered what you thought was exactly the same thing for $345, who would you buy from???
You have to remember that this guy doesn't know diddly about design. He just wanted his name on his truck. Therefore he thinks he got the same thing from the other shop.
I know it still burns, but ... go sailing for a coupla hours... and maybe things will get a little better in the morning.
BUT, you can still be friends WITHOUT giving any more freebies.
-------------------- Don Hulsey Strokes by DON signs Utica, KY 270-275-9552 sbdsigns@aol.com
I've always been crazy... but it's kept me from going insane. Posts: 2290 | From: Utica, KY U.S.A. | Registered: Jan 1999
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Maybe I'm too friendly, but I would have said to my friend, "Awww, you dog, how come you went somewhere else? That stuff you got there looks like crap." But this is how I talk to my friends.
-------------------- Signs by Alicia Jennings (Mudflap Girl) Tacoma, WA Since 1987 Have Lipstick, will travel. Posts: 3850 | From: Tacoma, WA. U.S.A. | Registered: Dec 1999
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Been there more than once, friends or acquaintances (sp) who know what you can do, but choose to take their business elsewhere and then brag about how much money they saved. I have told a couple "If I knew you were hurting for money so bad, heck, I would have just GIVEN you the job for FREE." That usually makes them feel lower than dirt and they reply "oh, I didn't expect it for free." You could have fooled me!
I had one customer, a professional and highly respected photographer, who is also the biggest tightwads I have ever met- he griped about any price that you gave him. On the flip side he charges on a high scale for his services, and would defend his prices with the fact that you were paying for his professional know-how. I finally was able to show him the light when I told him that I could go and get portraits made at Wal-Mart a whole lot cheaper than he could do them. After he tried to explain about how much he was worth, I just said, "exactly, my services are worth this much, you can always find someone to do it cheaper, but neccessarily better!
One of the hardest parts of being in a creative business is not taking stuff like this as a personal attack. I tend to forget this and when someone goes elsewhere, I view it as they don't value ME and my creativity. Most of the time it is not about that.
My old boss used to say-"The best one in the wh_rehouse gets screwed the most!"
-------------------- Michael Clanton Clanton Graphics/ Blackberry 19 Studio 1933 Blackberry Conway AR 72034 501-505-6794 clantongraphics@yahoo.com Posts: 1736 | From: Conway Arkansas | Registered: Oct 2001
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I don't think I would confront him about it (I would either get TOO upset or cry...I'm too emotional). I would wait for him to ask me for anything in the future and say something like "That guy that lettered your truck probably has one of those..." I agree with Don that the guy probably just think he got a deal and can't figure why should you be so upset (because he's clueless!) but I would want him to know that he hurt my feelings. Also, I would make it very clear, there will be NO more borrowing of my tools! I really think your best bet, though is to just write the guy off. You would hope that a "real" friend would never do that to you. That old saying "With friends like that, who need's enemies" comes to mind. When he comes around again, you are just too busy to talk to him. Or say, "Whoops, I gotta go" and walk away. Sorry you had to experience another of life's wonderful buttheads! Don't waste your time fretting about him.
-------------------- Jane Diaz Diaz Sign Art 628 W. Lincoln Ave. Pontiac, Il. 61764 815-844-7024 www.diazsignart.com Posts: 4102 | From: Pontiac, IL USA | Registered: Feb 1999
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posted
I think there is too much being made of this.
Yeah it sucks that the work went elsewhere but on the other hand you could have offered the same simple product, or at least that option, when coming up with a bid instead of jumping immediately to the higher end design and holding firm on the price.
Not everyone wants or has the budget for masterpieces so our job is to identify those people and accommodate or send them elsewhere if you don't want to mess with it.
My friends and family know I don't do jack squat for free, luckily they understand these things cost money to produce, probably because of the fact I never give anything away in the first place.
People will always take advantage if given the opportunity, but they can't if you don't allow them. Take the power back.
-------------------- "If I share all my wisdom I won't have any left for myself."
Mike Pipes stickerpimp.com Lake Havasu, AZ mike@stickerpimp.com Posts: 8746 | From: Lake Havasu, AZ USA | Registered: Jun 2000
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Shelia, this guy has been around so long, he's like a brother to the guys I share shop space with. I've seen him nearly everyday, for a decade now.
The $20.00 logo he installed at my shop, using my tools and products, HE purchased from another sign guy - 'coz' he knew the guy had that particular logo in his computer. He, never asked if I could do the logo, he just showed up with it! The logo, is the name and image of a piece of equipment he services...
I did not overprice this job, much the opposite, I gave him a real deal! The 2003 sign contractors pricing guide, has this job estimated at no less than $1700.00. Not to mention, I didn't tack anything additional on for design time and two trips to his business location. (my bad...)
The point I made about the hurricanes and needing money, is just that! Commerce stopped here, for a good month. Everyone was hungry and needing the work. It's beyond me, why someone I know, who knows my situation, wouldn't do what they could to send business my way.
When I left the 'boss' with the final estimate, knowing that he was going to get other estimates, I emphasized to him that our prices may vary depending on layouts and I would appreciate the opportunity to bid apples to apples.
Yes, there was the point, that the 'boss' asked if I could do better on the price. It's not so uncommon to hear such a response, stick to my guns and get my price.
Another comment the 'boss' made, was that he paid $500.00 for the lettering on his van. The layout, on the van was a botch job too! Brush script, in an arc, red letters, with a black pinline... But, it also had two digital prints, of the equipment they service. Sheesh, one look at the van, for an additional $700 bucks he was getting a tasteful, high impact, moving billboard!
I agree with those of you who suggest that I should have given a price for a simple, hokey layout. Though, I would be embarrassed to say I lettered it! (now, I'm embarrassed that I didn't letter it coz someone I know is driving the truck)
I used to cringe, when my partner would follow instructions from clients, giving them exactly what they asked for, regardless... I suppose, the bottom line is, he got the job!
As for Mr. Walks on Toes, I feel betrayed. I know now, the only reason he had me do his racing numbers is, because I do them for free. He's cheap, so why not! He, managed to weasel his way into the cover and barter system I have going on with the guys I work with. Sticky numbers, are sold at all the racing locations and he can get them there from now on, or make his visits to the other sign shop, where he will also be charged.
I sincerely hope he doesn't come to me for anything else, in the future. It is then, that I will face the music. Whether he knows it now or not, he's fired!
I like what Jill said best:
quote: "You know, I thought you were my friend. It really bugs me that after all that time I spent with you, and all the things I've done for you, that you turned elsewhere for your stickers. It's not so much that you went to the low-baller, everyone wants a great deal. It's the fact that you thought nothing of coming here and pretty much rubbing it in my face. Please don't darken my doorstep again."
I'm feeling better now...
-------------------- Co-Host: SANDCASTLE Panel Jam 'a Dixie Letterhead Reunion' Fort Myers, Florida
Cheryl Lucas a/k/a "Shag" on mIRC Vital Signs & Graphics, Etc. Cape Coral, Florida 239-574-4713 VSignsNgraphics@aol.com Posts: 987 | From: Cape Coral, FL USA | Registered: Aug 2000
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posted
The general public (which collectively shares the brainpower of your average tapeworm) has no idea of the value of the idea behind a design, much less the work that goes into presenting a product that looks decent and doesn't go to shyt in three months. You (I hate to say) encouraged this by giving your "friend" those freebees.
I've had numerous discussions regarding this sort of issue, and it boils down to this: IF YOU GIVE SOMETHING AWAY, IT DE-VALUES EVERYTHING ELSE YOU DO. There will always be people out there who will do something cheaper - that's not the problem. The problem is allowing someone - including friends - to get the idea that what you give them has no monetary value. Once they believe that, it's very difficult to convince them that your prices reflect the value of your efforts, because to them, it's all the same.
...and one more note: a quote from Vincent A. "Buddy" Cianci, former Mayor of Providence, Rhode Island, and currently serving a five-year sentence in Federal prison for corruption - "The toes you step on today may be connected to the a$$ you have to kiss tomorrow."
-------------------- "A wise man concerns himself with the truth, not with what people believe." - Aristotle
Cam Bortz Finest Kind Signs Pondside Iron works 256 S. Broad St. Pawcatuck, Ct. 06379 "Award winning Signs since 1988" Posts: 3051 | From: Pawcatuck,Connecticut USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Your point is well taken and one I will not soon forget.
The perks I get from sharing space with a sandblasting company, far exceed the sticky numbers I've handed out over the years, to the guys I share space with. In five years, I've never paid for blasting. (their rates are $125.00/hr.) This guy, managed to fly in under the radar, simply by association with the guys at the blasting company.
Lesson learned...
Cher.
-------------------- Co-Host: SANDCASTLE Panel Jam 'a Dixie Letterhead Reunion' Fort Myers, Florida
Cheryl Lucas a/k/a "Shag" on mIRC Vital Signs & Graphics, Etc. Cape Coral, Florida 239-574-4713 VSignsNgraphics@aol.com Posts: 987 | From: Cape Coral, FL USA | Registered: Aug 2000
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posted
I've read all the post and I say: that as a customer you will have to accept his taking the other bid or his bosses acceptace of the bid, what ever. As a friend, I'd say catch him feeling good over a six pack or two and rack his jaw or pop him once in the ear. He will get the message.
Your (next to) last post helped me understand the situation more . . . I'm sorry I was crass about it . . .
Had he been a real freind or 'brother' . . he should have straight-out got you the work in light of your hardships, if not simply because of the perks he had gotten from your shop...
I hope you get the opportunity, or create an opportunity to discuss it with the guy. . . .I like what Jill said too. . . .it might even be a little too polite...
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), it would make me very angry and disappointed.
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