posted
I've had to collect on two people. One I took to court with only signed faxes and won the full amount. The other was an attorney in Detroit that I had already done lots of work in a real short of time. He always paid cash. THis time he didn't pay at all and my phone calls were never returned. I wanted my 1125.00 that he owed but ended up calling a collection agency and settled for 843.75 and let them do the work. If you want a collection agency to go after them, negotiate with them about the percentage that they want to keep. They wanted 35 and I got them down to 25%.
-------------------- Laura Butler Vision Graphics & Sign 4479 Welch Rd Attica, Mi 48412 Posts: 2855 | From: Attica, Mi, USA | Registered: Nov 2000
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But I already ordered the "Pipe Full of Fun Kit #7"...
Dang.
-------------------- Bruce Bowers
DrCAS Custom Lettering and Design Saint Cloud, Minnesota
"Things work out best for the people who make the best of the way things work out." - Art Linkletter Posts: 6451 | From: Saint Cloud, Minnesota | Registered: Jun 1999
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From what I read he gave you $500. for materials. but I see a $900. figure you must have quoted him, then I see, he gave you $300. for half of the project. "REMEMBER" with zigly under line...it was his job, his customer, then calls you "bro". Then says...he was willing "to split the net profit with you, but you wanted to be greedy." From what I read "you've known him 5 years" not like you just met at the coffee shop a week ago, and you both start doing a cash business. It shows you both have been doing dealings for awhile. Now your buddy, partnership goes sour, and so you throw it here for a Kangaroo Court to say the guy is a low down dirty scoundrow. Now don't get me wrong I'm not taking sides or anything, because I don't know you or this other guy. But from what I remember there was always two sides to every story, I'm really curious if this guy was to read what is being written about him, what would he have to say about it.
[ October 31, 2004, 03:07 AM: Message edited by: FranCisco Vargas ]
-------------------- aka:Cisco the "Traveling Millennium Sign Artist" http://www.franciscovargas.com Fresno, CA 93703 559 252-0935 "to live life, is to love life, a sign of no life, is a sign of no love"...Cisco 12'98 Posts: 3576 | From: Fresno, Ca, the great USA | Registered: Dec 1998
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Let's go grab Bob and do the "Pipe Full of Fun Kit #7"....
It'll be a hoot!
-------------------- Bruce Bowers
DrCAS Custom Lettering and Design Saint Cloud, Minnesota
"Things work out best for the people who make the best of the way things work out." - Art Linkletter Posts: 6451 | From: Saint Cloud, Minnesota | Registered: Jun 1999
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Hmmm.... a lynch mob is a powerful creature but it's blind and has no brain. As Rick, Karyn & Cisco mentioned, every story, like every coin, has 3 sides ......... or more. So, I don't really have a horse in this race, I just don't like mobs.
Bob, I think I understand your motivation but, that tire slittin' biz sounds like a snakey thing to do. Let me suggest another tactic, just unscrew the cores from the valvestems & put 'em under his windshield wiper. That way, when he does show up, you'll have plenty of time to discuss things with him before he drives off.
And Bruce, no need to return that "Pipe Full of Fun Kit #7". I'm sure we can find a worthy recpient,
-------------------- Chris Elliott 1longshot@classicnet.net cell 62084two2232 Posts: 686 | From: Scottsdale, AZ & Anthony, KS, USA | Registered: Dec 1999
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sorry bout the double post.....I was just cleanin' it & it went off. Nah, the truth is, I hit the reply button & got bored waitin' for something to happen & decided to make a phone call. Finished the call & it looked like I'd forgtten to hit reply (the window with my reply was still open) so I hit it again.
[ October 31, 2004, 01:41 AM: Message edited by: Chris Elliott ]
-------------------- Chris Elliott 1longshot@classicnet.net cell 62084two2232 Posts: 686 | From: Scottsdale, AZ & Anthony, KS, USA | Registered: Dec 1999
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Well, I guess it would depend of what kind of fun that pipe is full of... Hahahahahahahahahahaha!
What do you say, Sparky?
I hope that quoting Foghorn cartoons doesn't include me in that lynch mob. Personally, while I feel empathy for Mike and his plight, I certainly don't feel sorry for him. I feel that the times we get screwed are times we don't follow our own rules and allow other people to do what they will.
In the thirteen years Tracy and I have been partners, I can count on one hand how many times we got stiffed, screwed, famboozled, flimflammed, scammed, or whatever other euphemisms you might attach to it. All but one time we didn't follow our rules. In essence, we did it to ourselves.
We have had "sign brokers" approach us about doing stuff for them. Funny, most don't want to operate on their own funds and expect you to wait to get paid until they get paid. I tell them that we aren't a bank. I was requiring deposits and payments in full. Funny, he didn't like those terms. Too damn bad as far as I was concerned.
I have seen other people go down that slippery slope and I wasn't going to allow our shop to do the same. Hey, it's easier to learn from other people's pain. It will save you a bunch of your own. Honest.
-------------------- Bruce Bowers
DrCAS Custom Lettering and Design Saint Cloud, Minnesota
"Things work out best for the people who make the best of the way things work out." - Art Linkletter Posts: 6451 | From: Saint Cloud, Minnesota | Registered: Jun 1999
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Very well said Bruce...so where's the pipe?
-------------------- aka:Cisco the "Traveling Millennium Sign Artist" http://www.franciscovargas.com Fresno, CA 93703 559 252-0935 "to live life, is to love life, a sign of no life, is a sign of no love"...Cisco 12'98 Posts: 3576 | From: Fresno, Ca, the great USA | Registered: Dec 1998
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The following paragraph is merely a too-brief summary of such things which have always been and always will be . . .
It should be noted that MOST individuals who are scam-skilled, are that way because they are very adept at the art of manipulation, which includes 'creating' situations where they don't totally 'burn-bridges' to those whom they may have scammed in the past . . .
after all, most left-over 'suckers' may still have some sugar left...
The scammers are very talented at making themselves seem like a victim by pre-arranging their own 'innocence' all the while stealing right in front of you, AND if you begin to question or doubt them, they are capable of turning it around so that you'll end up apologizing to them!!!
It does'nt matter HOW GOOD their intentions, words, behavior, and business actions come across . . . THE BOTTOM LINE IS ALWAYS:
Did they deliver and was the money there??
NOTE: This message was not intended as a plug for the mofia-mentality . . .tho' we do realize a marked reduction in a con-man's 'selling' ability in most any location where this threat is percieved as serious . . .heh-heh
Also, just as an added question of interest:
Do you know how many VERY, VERY talented, creative, skilled, highly intelligent, personable, gregarious, likable, photogenic, manipulative, additictive personalities reside in your state prison systems???
quote:Originally posted by FranCisco Vargas: I've been reading this post and somehow I saw a subliminal message in it. http://www.pwcgraphics.com/misc/jim.jpg
From what I read he gave you $500. for materials. but I see a $900. figure you must have quoted him, then I see, he gave you $300. for half of the project. "REMEMBER" with zigly under line...it was his job, his customer, then calls you "bro". Then says...he was willing "to split the net profit with you, but you wanted to be greedy." From what I read "you've known him 5 years" not like you just met at the coffee shop a week ago, and you both start doing a cash business. It shows you both have been doing dealings for awhile. Now your buddy, partnership goes sour, and so you throw it here for a Kangaroo Court to say the guy is a low down dirty scoundrow. Now don't get me wrong I'm not taking sides or anything, because I don't know you or this other guy. But from what I remember there was always two sides to every story, I'm really curious if this guy was to read what is being written about him, what would he have to say about it.
quote:Originally posted by Rick Sacks: I guess I see this differently than the rest of you. As far as him agreeing to terms before hand, and not complying, that's true. From reading his note, I suggest he thought he was paying you a fair price and you were ripping him with the price you wanted. He not only gave and sent you money, he made the effort to contact you and give an explanation. If he were scheming on ripping you he wouldn't have written.
I can see where you are comming from, but first off - I had stated this in the past & it still holds true: by making this post I am warning people in his current area. I am NOT throwing it into a Kangaroo Court. I don't care if people believe me or him or whatever - I just want people to be on the lookout & think twice before letting this guy get under their skin & skip town with their hard earned $$$.
Also - the prices in that letter are his figures - I have the estimate here at the shop that explains the total job cost of a bit over $1900 - out of that my price was approx $1300 + partial install.
He was never my "buddy" or my "partner" He was a customer & nothing more. He always paid a deposit & usually paid the balance upon completion. This time he took the money & ran. I would have a hard time believing that if this happened to either you - you would not feel scammed or ripped off.
There is an update to the story - He called my shop with a solution to the problem. He told me to OVERCHARGE my next few customers a few hundred dollars each to re-coup my losses. Perhaps that gives you a bit more insight to his character.
thanks Mike
[ November 01, 2004, 10:08 AM: Message edited by: Mike Stowe ]
-------------------- Mike Stowe Signs Unlimited Mishawaka, IN info@pwcgraphics.com Posts: 208 | From: Mishawaka, Indiana USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Currently, I have a good "friend" that i've known and worked with for 20 years, that is into my pocket (and inherently good nature) for $754. The cash value does not reflect what other efforts (like 15, 54 mile round trips in the dead of winter) that I put into earning that money either. Seeing the middle finger extended to my phone calls and written "reminder" doesn't settle too well.
There was a verbal agreement only, no signed anything.
I do like Bob's thinking, personally.
-------------------- Pete Sharkins MotoArts Decals and Signs New Kensington, PA motoarts@yahoo.com * All vinyl, all the time * Posts: 138 | From: New Kensington, PA | Registered: Mar 2004
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Mike, first thanks for the heads-up. Even if we aren't likely to run into this guy, I think your post has been a good reminder to anyone who has gotten lax on their policies.
Secondly, whether you intentionally threw this into a Kangaroo Court or not, the majority of us here hate to see a fellow 'head get screwed. I personally would pursue legal action. More on principal than the amount of he owes you. To sit by and not pursue legal action when someone screws you is allowing yourself to be screwed and allowing this person to continue their actions without consequences or taking responsibility for themselves. If I were in your shoes and didn't go after him, I'd feel partially responsible the next time he screws someone else and you know he will.
Now, a few have made comments that perhaps he didn't think your prices were fair or whatever. That is irrelevant. He signed the estimate, agreeing to the price then decided not to pay the amount he agreed to in writing. The time to discuss the price is BEFORE signing the estimate. Are these same people saying we now have to discuss price with customers before and after completing the job?
-------------------- Chris Welker Wildfire Signs Indiana, Pa Posts: 4254 | From: Indiana, PA | Registered: Mar 2001
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Ok, now I see more coming out of this then what was posted earlier the prices in that letter are his figures - I have the estimate here at the shop that explains the total job cost of a bit over $1900 - out of that my price was approx $1300 + partial install. I'm not a judge, jury, attorney or DA, just a by stander. So my first reading was what you posted. I have been burned and I hate the taste it leaves. So by you spreading the word. Then it's a good thing, all in all every crook will get his day, nobody gets nothing for free without a cost in one way or another. As far as sueing him, or taking him to court, that's a tough one one since he no longer is in your area. But depends on how valuable your time is to persue him is another story, you could take it to small claims and have it on record, so when the day does come down he he gets caught no matter what town he is in you will have access to file on him, but if he has nothing then what can you expect to collect? It's a long ways to Florida from Indiana to punch someone in the nose. And you still wouldn't win because then he would say you assualted him. It sucks! Just keep spreading the word...
-------------------- aka:Cisco the "Traveling Millennium Sign Artist" http://www.franciscovargas.com Fresno, CA 93703 559 252-0935 "to live life, is to love life, a sign of no life, is a sign of no love"...Cisco 12'98 Posts: 3576 | From: Fresno, Ca, the great USA | Registered: Dec 1998
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Yeah - Cisco... Sorry for getting a bit hot there. This guy is a real lug nut - he says that he knows what materials cost so there is no way he is going to pay the price we agreed on. He is not taking into account that I pay rent for the building & spent approx 6-7 hours on the project before he ever arrived with the truck (preparing the prints & applying app tape - cutting vinyl - weed/tape - you know the drill).
I also spoke with the customer & they stated he picked up the balance & told them he had to stop at my shop & pay me for "helping him". He picked up the money Saturday late afternoon - I called him on his cell phone Monday evening & he was already in Florida.
He also has made statements about that he needs the money more than I do & that he needed to get to Florida.
We'll see how he acts when he gets back into town & tries to drum up biz - he will run into me sooner or later.
Take care! Mike
-------------------- Mike Stowe Signs Unlimited Mishawaka, IN info@pwcgraphics.com Posts: 208 | From: Mishawaka, Indiana USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Sheila just described ao old customer of mine to a tee- scamming from you & twisting it so you look like the guilty party, yet keeping sweet enough to be able to try & come back again.
If you can possibly see these ones coming, the job doesn't leave the shop without payment. The way they get out of that (this bloke did) was to suggest we load it all in his trailer, tie it down, and then sort the money out.
When the time came, he flatly refused to pay what I asked, saying it would never even be worth half the amount, which was all he was going to pay, so subtracting the pitiful deposit I asked for, & paying the rest, in a cheque I had to hold for a week till it had cleared, left me with what felt like a punch in the guts & a bad taste for sure. Mostly just shock from the sheer audacity, as he 'appeared' to be a friend beforehand.
I learnt from another aquaintance 6 months later that he was boasting about how cheaply he got the job from me. This was 5 or 6 years ago. The job was worth $8000, and I was going to charge him closer to $5000 for some odd reason, but all I ended up with was $2450 plus some junk he dropped off, which I didn't want, but from which I almost made up the difference many years later, but that doesn't count.
He's now out of business, totally- what goes around, comes around, as they say!
-------------------- "Stewey" on chat
"...there are no limits when you aim for perfection..." Jonathan Livingston Seagull Posts: 7014 | From: Highgrove via Toowoomba, Queensland, Australia | Registered: Dec 2002
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