posted
i just came back from one of my clients who just opened a business. he called me as i did his marquee and a door. he needed the license # put on the door, so since i did the other work for him i cut the 1.5" letters and took them up and applied them N/C. i noticed as i drove up a new 3 FOOT X 15 FOOT white banner installed up on the facia. i asked him where he got it....he tells me this guy drives in the other day, told him he could do this size banner for now get this...$160.00!!!!!! THATS $3.56 A SQ.FT. banner cost is $45.00, vinyl& tape used is minimum $40, time is at least 1 hour at $50....install shoulda been minimum of $35....so the way i figure it he pocketed A WOPPIN $35.00!!!!!!!! on top on that its 20 feet in the air where its mounted...AND THIS IDIOT DID THAT FOR FREE!!!! i quoted him on a 2 x 10 FOR $160!!!!!AND NO INSTALL! so i lost that sale.....now the real kicker..the guy didnt write a reciept, leave a card or give tell the cleint his name!!!!!! REALL GOOD BUSINESS PRATICE !!!!!!! now you see why i posted the title the way i did.......and i hope he enjoyed workin for less then MINIMUM WAGE....THE IDIOT!!!!!
[ September 13, 2004, 06:40 PM: Message edited by: old paint ]
-------------------- joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-637-1519 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Sounds like the norm around here, OP. Seems lately everytime I turn around someone new is buying a plotter and selling magnetic sign at 50 bucks a set. Look like sh*t....but most people around here just don't seem to care.
I feel your pain OP. Believe me, I feel your pain.
posted
Thats the way here. 3.50 a sq ft One Color $4 a ft for 2 color. OP try ready blanks 3x15 10oz $22 each and $4 shipping. I just keep 2 of all the common blanks in stock. Quick and easy money Cash and Carry NO INSTALLS. If you cant make a 1 color banner in 30 minutes you better get some new Geritol with the booster in. Or Try Some MEAT in your Diet
posted
I truly believe that when your reputation and business practices have been established, that the one and only headache comes from counting your cash at the end of the day and not worrying about someone else who gives out cheap prices. Evidently anyone can do a banner so move on to the next phase and stop worrying about the next guy
-------------------- HotLines Joey Madden - pinstriping since 1952 'Perfection, its what I look for and what I live for'
posted
Banners suck. They're similar to lettering a giant, live catfish.
-------------------- Pete Sharkins MotoArts Decals and Signs New Kensington, PA motoarts@yahoo.com * All vinyl, all the time * Posts: 138 | From: New Kensington, PA | Registered: Mar 2004
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posted
"i just came back from one of my clients who just opened a business. he called me as i did his marquee and a door. he needed the license # put on the door, so since i did the other work for him i cut the 1.5" letters and took them up and applied them N/C."
Any your babbling about " IDIOTS, VINLY CUTTER, AND NO PROFIT... Sorry OP, don't feel bad for you at all, sure does sound like your doing the same thing...
-------------------- Mike Berry New England Posts: 534 | From: New England | Registered: Jan 2002
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Joe..No sense beating yourself up over the lowballers. You are getting up to my age. Ya could have a heart attack getting worked up about them!!!
I just keep my prices up and don't sweat the competition. If I get the job I make good money. If I don't get the job then someone is working for a profit margin that I refuse to think about. And I get to take a day off. It's called semi-retirement.
Hell... if I have nothing to do, the lawn gets cut or something might even get done around the house.
Don't get so worked up buddy! The lowballers will always be around but they will have different names because they can't stay in business.
-------------------- Dave Grundy retired in Chelem,Yucatan,Mexico/Hensall,Ontario,Canada 1-519-262-3651 Canada 011-52-1-999-102-2923 Mexico cell 1-226-785-8957 Canada/Mexico home
-------------------- Harris Kohen K-Man Pinstriping and Graphix Trenton, NJ "Showing the world that even I can strategically place the pigment where its got to go." Posts: 1739 | From: Trenton, NJ, USA | Registered: Jun 2001
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posted
This topic keeps coming up again and again. Just my 2 cents, but I know Mike Sheehan at Classic Signs in Pensacola is doing big business persuing new development signage.
Appy is another good example of a sign maker that is making a good living and enjoys a nice lifestyle. What are these guys doing that others are not?
I once heard a very successful guy on tv. The reporter asked him what he would do if he lost everything. Without hesitation, he answered that he would seek a job in a 5 Star Hotel.
He went on to point out that one of the secrets of success is meeting and learning from those that have or are doing whatever it is you want to do. Instead of bitching and complaining, it's time to stop doing the same old things that keep generating the same old results.
There are a number of people reading this BB that are making good incomes. Find a mentor, ask for advice and then do what they tell you. If you are really tired of always being sick and tired, it's time for a checkup from the neck up. Myself included!
-------------------- Steve Shortreed 144 Hill St., E. Fergus, Ontario Canada N1M 1G9 519-787-2673
quote: $45.00, vinyl& tape used is minimum $40, time is at least 1 hour at $50....install shoulda been minimum of $35....so the way i figure it he pocketed A WOPPIN $35.00!!!!!!!!
$45 $40 $50 +$35 ______________ $170
Actually, he lost $10 on the deal.... Rapid
-------------------- Ray Rheaume Rapidfire Design 543 Brushwood Road North Haverhill, NH 03774 rapidfiredesign@hotmail.com 603-787-6803
I like my paint shaken, not stirred. Posts: 5648 | From: North Haverhill, New Hampshire | Registered: Apr 2003
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posted
Sorry Joe, but not knowing exactly what is there I can't be sure about this, an neither can your customer, but if they went on the cheap...
3' x 15' banner $45.00---------$29 13oz H&G banner
vinyl& tape used is minimum $40-----GMI 3mil & tape $25
time is at least 1 hour at $50-----:30 to :60 @ $42.50
install, second story...not on your life without a lift......but I'll use your number...$35
Total $131.50......not that I would sell it for that, nor should anyone, but it is possible if you don't mark up materials and are willing to work for nothing....
>>>> Edited to match Joe's description below <<<<
Mark
[ September 14, 2004, 03:40 AM: Message edited by: Mark Sheflo ]
-------------------- Mark Sheflo Renton, Washington A-Squared Signs, LLC Posts: 145 | From: Renton, Washington | Registered: Feb 2003
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posted
MB....you need to read the whole thing...go back to where it said 1.5" NUMBERS...and it was 5 numbers...less then a foot long...also.."I DID HIS MARQUEE AND HIS DOOR LETTERING!!! he forgot to have me do them when i did the door! SHEEES....pay atten-shun. and i did say N/C, but they offered a massage($40$ VALUE) and i took it....iam nowhere doin the same thing.....i gave him a receipt, he has my business cards in his lobby, and one of his associates needs a pair of magnetics(which he told me about then)......i do well with people, you should try bein nice......hehehe mark it wasnt a poly banner, it was a good 10-12oz with gromets....oh and thank you DOCTOR PHIL..for you words of wisdom....quit bitchin and do somethine about it.... ray i didnt add in the $35 for install.....since he didnt either....heheheh
[ September 14, 2004, 12:54 AM: Message edited by: old paint ]
-------------------- joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-637-1519 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
if da fo ****s....hahahahahaha....and if you do work at that price....shame on you....
-------------------- joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-637-1519 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
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Sorry you found so little value in my comments Joe. My comments were not directed at you personally. Are you saying you have no control over your business or income? Are some people just born successful and/or lucky? If that is true, why even bother looking for new solutions?
But what do I know. I can't even make a sign. I'm stuck in this hot TV studio.
-------------------- Steve Shortreed 144 Hill St., E. Fergus, Ontario Canada N1M 1G9 519-787-2673
Neither of also included the shipping of the banner, set up time on the computer, and a resonable profit margin...as well as the person who did the banner. Is he snapper? Yup. The difference is the lines aren't made with chaulk, but a blade.
Steve does make an excellent point, much of which I've applied to my way of thinking and working since finding Letterville last spring. With all the information here, and the hands on experience gained at live meets, I've moved into doing higher end work and let the lowballers have all the customers who are unable or unwilling to spend the proper amount on signage. I don't wish any of them ill since they are trying to make a buck, no different than myself, but unless they get a wake up call, they most likely will wind up doing signs and wondering why they aren't gaining anything from it.
In all truth, when I first started out, I had no idea what the value of what I was producing really was. I wish a Letterhead had called me back then and let me know. I'd have been a lot better off...then, and now.
Don't get mad, get them on an even playing field. Give them a call. You've got nothing to lose but a few minutes on the phone...or more customers to someone who is uninformed.
Best of luck this week with Ivan. I'll be keeping you in mind. Rapid
-------------------- Ray Rheaume Rapidfire Design 543 Brushwood Road North Haverhill, NH 03774 rapidfiredesign@hotmail.com 603-787-6803
I like my paint shaken, not stirred. Posts: 5648 | From: North Haverhill, New Hampshire | Registered: Apr 2003
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posted
Theres always gonna be lowballers out there Joe. The ones here bought a cutter, some bootleg software, and dont pay taxes. They diddle around and make a few coro signs, etc. At the end of the year, they check their profits, if they even keep books, and sell the cutter and software to somebody else. They're not too professional about the way they do business, so they end up not doing business. Even in this little town, Ive got five of them now. I aint gonna worry about them.
-------------------- Maker of fine signs and other creative stuff. Located at 109 N. Cumberland ave. Harlan, Ky. 40831 606-837-0242 Posts: 4172 | From: Ages-Brookside, Ky. Up the Holler... | Registered: Jul 1999
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posted
Has it ever occured to OP that somewhere, someone is fuming over the idiot that sells coroplast ballfield signs for $30?
Sorry, I couldn't resist. I'll be on vacation for two weeks; apparently I'm one of those "lucky" people who charge enough to make a decent living in this business.
-------------------- "A wise man concerns himself with the truth, not with what people believe." - Aristotle
Cam Bortz Finest Kind Signs Pondside Iron works 256 S. Broad St. Pawcatuck, Ct. 06379 "Award winning Signs since 1988" Posts: 3051 | From: Pawcatuck,Connecticut USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
I love William Bass's Dad's quote...."You don't lose money on a job you don't get". That will probably show up on a plaque in our shop somewhere. William, what is his name, so I can quote him? It is infuriating to have the lowballers underbid you, but another quote that I DO have on my wall is "We have no quarrel with those who work for less. They know what they are worth."
-------------------- Jane Diaz Diaz Sign Art 628 W. Lincoln Ave. Pontiac, Il. 61764 815-844-7024 www.diazsignart.com Posts: 4102 | From: Pontiac, IL USA | Registered: Feb 1999
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OK, I've watched this thread for a couple days, and I've got to comment here:
Steve, Great advice! Even if some did'nt appreciate it. I think too many times our personal lives keep us from achieving what we want business-wise. Maybe our CC bills are too high or our mortgage is killing us. KEEP IT SIMPLE!
Cam, Mike, I agree. But, I too tend to throw out a bone from time to time. There's nothing wrong with that, but are we training our clients to expect freebees? And then, when we want to charge a fair price, we are not viewed as a serious sign artist. That is my fault if that happens. I trained them. I trained them to buy low regardless of loyalty or quality.
When we start out, we will usually lowball or bid below the crowd so we can "get our name out there." The day comes when we have to cover our expenses, and then some. After all, nobody is going to hand me a pension check when I get to the point I can no longer work. My favorite quote, (besides Jane's and William's) is "I can stay home and starve....no need to work and starve" Or, "I refuse to compete with those who are willing to work for free"
OP: You may need to review your pricing. To heck with that guy. Most the time when you have quoted prices on the BB, I think "How does he make a living?" I have found people expect to pay more when you give them more. I mean a credable appearance, a shop truck that is always clean, and a presentation that is second to none. Clients will go for a better presentation even if the price is higher. Anybody who won't pay your reasonable prices, they can call the other guys. Soon, people will call you because you will do an awesome job, not because you are the cheapest guy around. Hang in there Joe!
""Good judgment comes from experience; and a lot of that comes from bad judgment" - Will Rogers Posts: 3487 | From: Beautiful Newaygo, Michigan | Registered: Mar 2003
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Don't worry about it too much i some times make house Number for $20.00 to $200.00 If the client went's a vinyl number on a PVC it's $20.00 but if he would like some with airbrushing or sandblasted HDU with gold leaf no problem it's $200.00 I've got guys here that's doing Refletive house number on plastique for less then $10.00 if the whent to work for free go for it but i don't fall in there games no more I'm a Pro sign maker not some fool that's going to work for free I'm the only one here that does real gold leaf i don't use sign gold in my shop i do charge for it i do what Dave does if i don't have the job find some stuff to do aroud the house. Or i will go work at wall mart i don't care no more i don't work for free and i still think my price are still to low. it's not the tools that makes us it's us that makes the tools.
-------------------- Michel Thibodeau Mich Signs Maine Posts: 55 | From: USA Maine | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
cam those ballfield signs are $35!!! for plain and $60 for logo/artwork....and another sign shop is doin em this fall. so they must be doin em for less then i charge em....hehehehehe. and its a quantity deal, not 1 or 2 signs. doctor phil, i can rag on you, cant i? also i did quote this client on a 2' x 10' sign, not installed on .040 alum. $160.00. so iam not with out reason for what iam sayin here....bass...you dad was right, and also why do a job...AND NOT MAKE ANY MONEY? thats what this idiot did. rick, as for prices here, iam in one of the lowest per capita INCOME areas in the U.S. you cant get prices here you get where you are, wish i could. and the more people low ball, to get a job, the less people expect to pay the next time they need a sign, there in lies the problem.
[ September 14, 2004, 12:37 PM: Message edited by: old paint ]
-------------------- joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-637-1519 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
I know it's a dangerous thing, but I'm going to throw this out anyway:
The only person I can change is me. I have no control over anyone else. If I dislike what someone else does, there is nothing I can do about it but change my attitude towards them. If I fret over what other folks do, they are controling my life instead of me.
We have the same folks here that OP has where he lives...it's just a fact of life (so, get over it). I don't have to live that way - I choose not to. And I know folks who live around OP that are getting top dollar for signs in a "depressed low income area". How do they do that?
-------------------- Chapman Sign Studio Temple, Texas chapmanstudio@sbcglobal.net Posts: 6306 | From: Temple, Texas, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
OP .. a gold mine is fixin to land in your lap.. Get ready to go out with some flyers or b cards and put them every where, PPl are goona cry for a new sign pretty soon.
Be ready bro.. WE willl get a share of it.. I can't wait .
-------------------- Leaper of Tall buildings.. If you find my posts divisive or otherwise snarky please ignore them. If you do not know how then PM me about it and I will demonstrate. Posts: 5274 | From: Im a nowhere man | Registered: Jul 2001
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ray, old standby phrases are great, yes, i agree with all that you say. i was just putiin this out there.....not complaining, bitchin or feelin sorry for me....just a touch of whats really going on and i see iam not alone, thats the whole jist of this post. there are some here doing great and getting good prices...but...they been at it 10-15 years or have been an esablished business for a long time. i moved here in 98, so i dont have the the 18 year client base i left in sarasota. i do have some good clients, and its growing more all the time.
-------------------- joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-637-1519 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
I also do commercial painting as well as signs and there are lowballers in every line of trade. Do your thing and let them do their's. I have had the same gripe for years, but never let my price or quality change to match those willing to cut their own throat to get the job. A job well done is a job well done. If they can supply the same craftmanship for a lower price then great for the client, but in my experience I have never seen it. Therefor, buyer be ware.
It's not the local economy then (because some are highly successful in a depressed area) but rather it is the length of time a person has been in business? How many years into having a business does it go from struggling to being "comfortable"? What changes that produces that transformation?
I'm not trying to argue, I'm just trying to sort out the excuses.
[ September 14, 2004, 04:05 PM: Message edited by: Raymond Chapman ]
-------------------- Chapman Sign Studio Temple, Texas chapmanstudio@sbcglobal.net Posts: 6306 | From: Temple, Texas, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Raymond..I don't think there are a specific number of years involved. At least there weren't for me.
I believe I felt comfortable when I was making more doing lettering on the side than I was doing body work full time!!!!!!!!!!!
At that point I closed the body shop and went into semi-retirement doing signs and lettering.
-------------------- Dave Grundy retired in Chelem,Yucatan,Mexico/Hensall,Ontario,Canada 1-519-262-3651 Canada 011-52-1-999-102-2923 Mexico cell 1-226-785-8957 Canada/Mexico home
posted
The number of years I've been in biz has nothing to do with the current income I'm making now. I made way more before Cody was born because I hussled. Made it my priority.
posted
i love arm chair quarterbacks....you can take all that "good advice", and print it and hang it on the walls....unless your walkin in my shoes....you live in a different world....thats all i gota say. you want to argue symantics, go ahead, you want to sound like the sage, go ahead, but it dont change WHAT IS!! and thats all i was sayin now get off ME........you all want to expound explainations for MY BEING THE PROBLEM so be it, thank you. the guy is still an idiot with a vinyl cutter.....and thats what i was sayin...nothin to do with MY WORK ETHIC OR CAPABILITY!!!! damn you guys can go of tangent so easy. oh and bob...."hear this".....hahahahahahaha
[ September 15, 2004, 02:11 AM: Message edited by: old paint ]
-------------------- joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-637-1519 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
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I agree that he is a lowballin' idiot...one of millions.....so what...are you worried about him taking your dimensional signage, or gold leafing or hand lettering or good designs away? Those are aquired skills that take time, anyone can make a banner....
-------------------- Rick Chavez Hemet, CA Posts: 1538 | From: Hemet,CA U.S.A. | Registered: Jun 2001
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your 1st sentance say what the whole thing is about....thats it....and no, he cant do what i do.
-------------------- joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-637-1519 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
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OP, I think I'm going to have to agree with you...there are low-ballin' folks out there.
I guess I misunderstood your original post. I thought you were complaining about the low-ballers, when evidently you were just letting us know that they were out there.
[ September 15, 2004, 09:08 AM: Message edited by: Raymond Chapman ]
-------------------- Chapman Sign Studio Temple, Texas chapmanstudio@sbcglobal.net Posts: 6306 | From: Temple, Texas, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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