posted
My dad owned a sign shop for 20 years. He used background enamel paints exclusively as well as I can recall. After reading a post asking whether ONESHOT could be used over LATEX on a wall sign, and remembering that enamel could indeed go over latex (the replies confirmed this vague memory for me), I wondered whether a background could be done with Latex. Amazingly, I read a post or two shortly after that, in which some 'heads recommended, unless I misunderstood, using exterior latex for backgrounds on signs.
Clean up and disposal of latex is way nicer than that of enamels; so I'm wondering a few things:
1) Can you use exterior latex for backgrounds on signs that will be lettered with lettering enamel?
2) Can you apply vinyl graphics over latex backgrounds?
3) Why do sign painters seem to prefer background enamel over exterior latex?
4) What is better for backgrounds: flat, satin, semi-gloss, gloss?
5) What are preferred name brands (Benjamin Moore, Sherwin Williams, etc.)?
6) Can you LETTER with exterior latex?
Perhaps there are questions I didn't think of. Feel free to answer those, too.
All comments are welcomed and appreciated.
Thanks
[ September 11, 2004, 04:53 PM: Message edited by: William Bass ]
-------------------- William Bass wjb71@bellsouth.net Northwest Florida Posts: 636 | From: Pensacola, FL | Registered: Aug 2004
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but I have to add my usual comment about prefering LONG LASTING AUTOMOTIVE finishes.
ALSO, I do not find that clean up is a big deal with oil-based enamels.
For one EXAMPLE: Lay a 4x8 panel flat. Pour a plate size amount of paint on it & roll it out, hmmmm, NO roller tray to clean!! Freeze-repeat- then chunk the roller cover . . hmmm, no roller cover to clean!! Dip small section of paper towel in mineral spirits to get that little spot on your hand.
And am including addendums on Si's replies to:
#2: . . .but get ready for chalking to run onto and eventually completely appear to"fade" vinyl lettering.
#3: (and 4). . . We like any slick, hard, glossy surfaces because they reduce drag on the brush. I also like glossy because it seems to add another dimension to the sign.
#5: I like Devoe
-------------------- Signs Sweet Home Alabama
oneshot on chat
"Look like a girl, act like a lady, think like a man, work like a dog" Posts: 5758 | From: "Sweet Home" Alabama | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
I have to go along with Si and the others. Someone once told me latex belongs on your house, oil base goes on your signs. I pretty much stick to that. If you're in a strip mall, or some shop location that won't allow oil base, for the odor or whatever, you have no choice. Latex is much friendlier that way. But colors bleach out; latex does not flow out smooth, like oil; it does not seem to hold some vinyls as well; and if you're in a southern climate, latex attracts mildew, which will ruin a sign quickly. I guess if I was in a location that didn't allow oil base, I'd have to go with some of the pre-finished aluminum panels available, when possible.
-------------------- Dale Feicke Grafix 714 East St. Mendenhall, MS 39114
"I can do all things through Christ, who strengthens me." Posts: 2963 | From: Mendenhall, MS | Registered: Apr 1999
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posted
Automotive finishes? Would this be sprayed on?
Sounds like background enamel's the way to go. I'm just sick of my shed filling up with half-used cans. As far as I know, NO ONE (not even sign companies with dumpster service) is allowed to dispose of oil-based paint in this county (or maybe even this state).
-------------------- William Bass wjb71@bellsouth.net Northwest Florida Posts: 636 | From: Pensacola, FL | Registered: Aug 2004
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posted
William, Be carfull if using automotive enamel on wood. The paint is very brittle and often fails due to expansion and contraction of the wood. The emamel should flex with the board. Automotive doesn't. I've learned the hard way . . . .John
-------------------- John Arnott El Cajon CA 619 596-9989 signgraphics1@aol.com http://www.signgraphics1.com Posts: 1445 | From: El Cajon CA usa | Registered: Dec 1998
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posted
That old saying about latex being paint for houses is just that, an old saying. People like Gary Anderson, Raymond Chapman, Mark Fair, Russ Mills and myself use it every day. 99 percent of my signs are mdo or signfoam. I use primarily porter paint as it is top quality and doesnt fade. If you go to wal-mart and get a gallon of 8.95 house paint, then you will get what you get. Most of the top quality latex acrylic paints have 15 to 25 year guarantees on them.Cost is usually around 25 to 30 dollars per gallon. There are a few top quality latex paints to choose from. For me, on mdo, its the best choice. On metal, thats a whole different ballgame. Id use one shot lettering enamel. Not the bulletin enamel. I dont have problems with vinyl or one shot sticking to the latex.
-------------------- Maker of fine signs and other creative stuff. Located at 109 N. Cumberland ave. Harlan, Ky. 40831 606-837-0242 Posts: 4172 | From: Ages-Brookside, Ky. Up the Holler... | Registered: Jul 1999
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Correct . . automotive finishes are ALWAYS sprayed and are for metal: Aluminum, iron, steel, with the exception of fiberglass. (Note: I have successfully used auto paint on 3/4" foam core panels too, they have a sort of "plastic" finish on ea.side like sintra, etc.) I would NEVER use (auto paint) on EXT. wood, but I think some do use it on guitars and such.
In our climate, I personally find vinyl a little harder to stick to latex or one-shot poster colours, but even when it DOES stick, it won't LOOK GOOD for long due to chalking and/or mildew.
There ARE flattening agents you can use to make oil flat but this limits the lifetime of the paint. When I want a flat finish on a sign, I get flat oil-base paints in industrial quality, but I notice that these tend to fade sooner as well and still have that "velvety" surface that seems to repel vinyl.
posted
I have no desire for a flat surface. Ugh. I have used semi-gloss exterior latex on one project with good results (for painting letters cut out of extruded foam -- the blue stuff from Lowes or Home Depot). I was just wondering if Gloss exterior latex (if there is such a thing) would do as well as background (bulletin) enamel. It doesnt sound as though it is quite as good as enamel, unfortunately. Prhaps I can build another shed to hold the extra half-used paint cans. lol
Thanks for clarifying on how you use automotive paints Sheila. I'll bet your signs do last a long time.
-------------------- William Bass wjb71@bellsouth.net Northwest Florida Posts: 636 | From: Pensacola, FL | Registered: Aug 2004
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quote:It doesnt sound as though it is quite as good as enamel, unfortunately.
I am in the process of attempting my first ones with latex because of advice from the b board.
Do a search ... the topic is well covered ... with lots of opinions.
My experiment is a routed HDU with a maroon background facing dead south ... I don't personally trust maroon enamel, dead south, long term, so I'm trying the 25 year latex (SW's most expensive, just guessing the most expensive is the best, and they mix in quarts)
Hope it works, remind me to check the color fade in ten years
-------------------- Compulsive, Neurotic, Anti-social and Paranoid ... but basically Happy Posts: 2677 | From: Rochester, NY, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
I've had good experiences with Benjamin Moore latex. Sherwin Williams has an excellent reputation and Si Allen recommends it - Si's opinions on sign matters count for a lot in my book.
DO NOT EVER use Home Depot, Lowes or Walmart name brands for exterior signage -- I did -- ONCE.
ALWAYS use a GOOD latex paint primer (I'm sure Sherwin Williams makes a good one). I recommend TWO coats of the latex after the primer.
Mark, I can barely remember what happened yesterday, but it's possible that ten years from now I will remember to remind you to check the color fade.
I might try latex, yet. At least once, probably.
[ September 14, 2004, 07:41 AM: Message edited by: William Bass ]
-------------------- William Bass wjb71@bellsouth.net Northwest Florida Posts: 636 | From: Pensacola, FL | Registered: Aug 2004
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posted
1) Can you use exterior latex for backgrounds on signs that will be lettered with lettering enamel?
quote: I recommend TWO coats of the latex after the primer.
and
quote: I might try latex, yet. At least once, probably
That got me scratching my head a little....
4) What is better for backgrounds: flat, satin, semi-gloss, gloss?
quote: I have no desire for a flat surface.
????????????????????????
quote: I have used semi-gloss exterior latex on one project with good results (for painting letters cut out of extruded foam -- the blue stuff from Lowes or Home Depot).
...folowed by...
quote: DO NOT EVER use Home Depot, Lowes or Walmart name brands for exterior signage -- I did -- ONCE.
Ok, does that include subtrates?
quote: Mark, I can barely remember what happened yesterday...
Can't argue that! Rapid
-------------------- Ray Rheaume Rapidfire Design 543 Brushwood Road North Haverhill, NH 03774 rapidfiredesign@hotmail.com 603-787-6803
I like my paint shaken, not stirred. Posts: 5648 | From: North Haverhill, New Hampshire | Registered: Apr 2003
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posted
I happily used latex as a background color for YEARS (I'm in my 19th as a sign chick) One coat of exterior primer-sand it with 220 grit-followed by 2 coats of exterior gloss latex house paint, all with a foam roller (Both primer & paint were always Glidden $20/gallon) and most signs lasted for at least 10 years, all hand-painted with 1-Shot Lettering enamels.
Sometimes I had a little bit of fading on the 1-S and sometimes some chalking on the latex background. When pregnant, I used Deka and we all know how badly it performed.
Then I got a computer and started making those sticky things. They didn't like to stick to my latex backgrounds.
So I started doing backgrounds with 1-Shot lettering enamels. Yes, it is a lot more expensive. The really dark colors like Purple fade fairly fast too, after about 4 years. I discovered Chromatic Bulletin Enamel (the one with the white label that was used in the Foodland mural at Mars) and it is great for backgrounds too. It has not faded yet on the wall in Mars, either.
I like a shiney background. Stickers stick to it. It's easy to hand-letter on, too. You just have to give it ample drying time before sticking or lettering.
But now I have graduated to trying to use Alumalite for my substrate. The colors are nice. It's masked. It's sturdy. You can stick on it. You can paint on it. It's ready-to-go with no coating out, etc etc. Next I wanna try DiBond.
So it's pretty much 6 of one and a half-dozen of the other. If I wanted to do a really posh old-fashioned style sign, I would buy a Super Stock Sign Blank, paint it with semi-gloss Latex, and letter away with 1-Shot and a quill. If I wanted (for some reason?) a flat-background sign, I'd do it in flat Latex and dry-brush the sucker to get an old timey Mark Fair/Dennis Gerathy look.
It's time to use all the knowledge you've gleaned from all these questions, William, and stop cutting biscuits at Hardees and start slingin' paint. Get to Jeff Ogden's meet. 'Nuff said. Love....Jill
-------------------- That is like a Mr. Potato Head with all the pieces in the wrong place. -Russ McMullin Posts: 8834 | From: Butler, PA, USA | Registered: Jan 2001
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posted
Hey, I used to make biscuits at Hardee's HE HE!
I use latex almost exclusively on everything I do because I hate the mess from 1-shot and I can't get 1-shot to look good. I saw one of the first signs I made the other day. It's 3 1/2 yrs old, painted with Glidden paint and has vinyl on it. Looks like it did the day I put it up. I now use Benjamin Moore Impervex Acrylic Enamel and Coronado which was recently bought out by someone. Don't have a Porter close enough or I would try it. I haven't seen any problems yet with anything I've made. Some is cleared, some isn't. Some with FrogJuice, some with 1-shot clear, some with Pelucid. All have shown the same results to me. I'm far from a professional but that's my experience to date!
Experiment and have fun with it. You have to take chances. That's just business!
Oh, I always use at least Semi-gloss when I'm applying vinyl. Never had a piece fall off yet.
-------------------- Amy Brown Life Skills 101 Private Address Posts: 3502 | From: Lake Helen, FL, USA | Registered: Feb 2001
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I used to use One Shot, and after seeing my signs turn "Chalky" after 2-3 years, I switched to Ben Moore Impervex Latex Enamel. All of the signs I have done since then, look great after 5+ years.
I once did a carved/gilded sign out of redwood with One Shot dark blue (like a navy blue). After 2 years, it was faded and chalky. I repainted it with latex 5 years ago, and it looks like the day I repainted it. (that's proof enough for me)
As far as the "latex is for houses" saying,...I say "foooey".
A house is a flat surface made of wood, pvc, metal etc, that expands and contracts, and sits in the sun and rain.....A sign is a flat surface (usually), that is made of wood, pvc, HDU, metal, etc, that expand and contracts, and sits in the sun and rain, blah blah blah. (similar enough to me)
My wooden house I painted with latex paint (along with my family name sign I painted with latex paint), still looks good after 7 years.
Like John said, Gary Anderson and the likes use it very successfully.
Most of my signs are carved/gilded HDU, or MDO with vinyl.
I thouroughly blow off any dust with compressed air (to where I can see the pores of the HDU become exposed), I prime with Jay Cookes, and 3 coats of latex enamel gloss(ususally sprayed) Vinyl sticks fine. Signs literally look the same after 5 years (once again, proof enough for me).
I remember an article in Signcraft "Jump in, the waters fine".
Good luck, Bob K.
-------------------- "The 3-4 minute mark of "Freewill" by Rush.
Bob Kaschak Artisan Sign And Design Peru New York Posts: 1927 | From: Upstate NY | Registered: Jul 2002
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posted
LOL William, don't completely close your mind toa flat background, or even matte copy on a gloss or flat sign. The reason is because you never know what will give that certain sign just the custom effect you want
. . .I guess I been kind'a ignoring that "Latex is for houses" too . . .but I have NEVER seen any paint that said, "For houses only. Not for use on signs."
LOL, I know I "pop-off" a lot . . sumtimes I cain't help it. . .
-------------------- Signs Sweet Home Alabama
oneshot on chat
"Look like a girl, act like a lady, think like a man, work like a dog" Posts: 5758 | From: "Sweet Home" Alabama | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
Ok, Just to add more option since I have such a sign I am working on.
If Background is painted with Latex, and lettering is done with One Shot, do you or should you use reducers or hardners.
also:
What is the difference between a paint from Lowes(for instance Olympic Brand) as compared to Sherwin Williams, they both claim to be good for 25 years.
-------------------- Dave Levesque Angelo Sign 3014 Hemlock San Angelo, TX 76904 Posts: 82 | From: San Angelo, TX | Registered: Jan 2004
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posted
Dave, the fact that it came from Lowes is enough for me. Our Lowes was great when they opened, but I've watched the quality of their stuff go out the window.
Lumber for example: a real lumber yard gets the 1st and 2nds and sells those as top grade & lower grade. The 3rds...those go to my lowes at Top Grade lumber. Not a chance I'm risking my business reputation on anything from Lowe's.
-------------------- Chris Welker Wildfire Signs Indiana, Pa Posts: 4254 | From: Indiana, PA | Registered: Mar 2001
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posted
Sorry for the confusion Rapid Ray. I have NEVER used latex on a sign (or seen it used on one, I got that idea from here). My dad and I always use latex on cut-out foam letters. Once I did not prime and used three coats of some Home Depot brand. Those letters just dissolved in the sun. On other sets of letters for the same building I used benjamin moore (and benjamin moore primer) and those letters look great after years. I could understand how it looked like I was contradicting myself.
The advice given here has been GREAT. Love ALL the replies. Thanks guys.
-------------------- William Bass wjb71@bellsouth.net Northwest Florida Posts: 636 | From: Pensacola, FL | Registered: Aug 2004
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