You have done lots of work for this client, and they call and ask you to email their logo to another company, (like yellow pages for an ad). Now, it is not a competitor, but they want it in a format that you do not use, but are capable of doing, (IE: Corel to Adobe). What do you charge for this service? It is not terribly time consuming, but it takes time none the less. Or maybe, it is just a simple emailing of an existing file.
Senario # 2, same question, except it is to a competitor, and your client is trying to "spread the wealth" so to speak.
I have mulled this over many times, and have never found a solution that I felt comfortable making into a policy. Your input is appreciated.
Regards to all,
[ August 19, 2004, 07:52 AM: Message edited by: Rick Beisiegel ]
""Good judgment comes from experience; and a lot of that comes from bad judgment" - Will Rogers Posts: 3485 | From: Beautiful Newaygo, Michigan | Registered: Mar 2003
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if i originally did the artwork(and charged of course)then i already give them a cd with various formats. however if i recreated a job and figured that in with the price and never offered them a cd because i didn't design the logo then i would certainly charge say $35(if it takes 5 mins right)to reformat so to speak. if they are spreading the wealth then they will need to spread a little more your way. i guess i would also explain that i use a special sign software and that they would unable to read my files but i could for a fee, provide useable vector artwork.
-------------------- Karyn Bush Simply Not Ordinary, LLC Bartlett, NH 603-383-9955 www.snosigns.com info@snosigns.com Posts: 3516 | From: Bartlett, NH USA | Registered: Jan 2001
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Making the simple complicated is commonplace; making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, that's creativity. — Charles Mingus Posts: 6718 | From: Mendocino, CA. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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I'm kinda rude sometimes, but I've designed things for customers, then had them provide the artwork to my competitor, who uses it, but still manages to F it up. If you're gonna steal my artwork, at least have the decency to do it right.
If I've got a good customer, I'll provide his artwork to a non-competitor for nothing - providing he's nice to me and I'm in a good mood that day.
If he's providing my artwork to a competitor, well, that's another story. I'll remind the customer that I also offer those services, I'll charge to email the artwork, I'll tell him that the competitor probably can't read my file, I'll provide a low-quality .jpg. Yeah, I'll admit it, I'm not very nice when it comes to "sharing" MY work. If they'd like to cough up about $350-$500 for rights, I'll give them proper vector format.
I've only ever had this problem a couple of times, because I do take the time to explain to my customers MY philosophy on MY work. I tell them up front that I'll gladly provide their artwork to the newspaper, printer, but NOT to another sign person.
Janet
-------------------- Janet Bakewell One Sun Grafiks Inc. Slave Lake, AB Canada www.onesungrafiks.com Posts: 128 | From: Slave Lake, AB Canada | Registered: Apr 1999
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I had a company that for 5 years, I hand lettered truck. My contact there died, after a few months, his replacement called and said in a very casual voice "I understand that you used to paint our trucks, I want to go all vinylo, so would you send your drawings to XXX sign shop?"
"NO!"
Long pause, then he hung up!
-------------------- Si Allen #562 La Mirada, CA. USA
(714) 521-4810
si.allen on Skype
siallen@dslextreme.com
"SignPainters do It with Longer Strokes!"
Never mess with your profile while in a drunken stupor!!!
Brushasaurus on Chat Posts: 8831 | From: La Mirada, CA, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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I do the same thing Janet does. A competitor told my client I was too expensive and he could do it cheaper. The client called me up for a copy of his logo. No problem, I emailed him a 45k jpg.
The other guy had the balls to call me and tell me he couldn't get it to work in his program! hahaha
So the X customer calls me up about it and I said if this guy knew his **** he should have no problem...That was the end of that.
-------------------- Bob Stephens Skywatch Signs Zephyrhills, FL
posted
Hi Rick. Ive got a good repeat client right now who wants his 'logo' cut in white vinyl for his glass entry door (a fairly intricate piece of line art of a mercedes benz). It's impossible to cut from the small, raggedy bitmap images he has provided so far so I asked him if he could get me the same artwork or file that the guy who did his t-shirts used (nice and big and sharp). A few days later he says he's got it. Turns out to be a 3" wide pmt stat of the same art I've already seen. When you look at it under magnification the same fuzzy edges are there. Hmmm. Definitely not the same as what's 10" wide on his shirts.
Clearly SOMEBODY <the t-shirt guy> has at some point in time converted this art to a much larger and cleaner version. Whether he charged for it at the time is unknown, but apparently t-shirt-man of the same mindset as Janet - he's going to protect his artwork. It's HIS artwork, not his customer's. Ok, whatever. Looks like the customer gets to pay for the art cleanup again. This time he'll be buying the art itself as a separate service, and, like Karen, he'll get the files to distribute as his future needs dictate.
So maybe that's the answer. If it was bought and paid for it is now theirs and not yours. Most of my deals are handled that way. Then if a client needs a file he doesn't already have for some reason, it's usually no big deal for me to assist him in sending the proper format - and that's usually all it is, they are clueless about formats and often don't have a graphics program to even see what's in the file. Many times I've dealt directly with the vendor involved to ensure they get what they needed. Pretty painless really, and usually done gratis (and cheerfully), but if it turns out to be more involved, well that's another job for me.
If the client elects to use his art to purchase goods elsewhere that I COULD have provided, then maybe I did something wrong. ie, he wasn't informed about all the goods I could provide, or I didn't respond to his inquiry soon enough, or heaven forbid he found a better price, etc. Those things happen. They make good opportunities to remind the customer of my services and that I'll be here for them when they need me.
SONGPAINTER Original Sign Music by Sign People NOW AVAILABLE on CD and the proceeds go to Letterville's favorite charity! Click Here for Sound Clips! Posts: 1974 | From: Orleans, MA, Cape Cod, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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You're under no obligation whatsoever to provide anyone with usable vector artwork.
If you've recreated a logo for a customer for your own use or originated the logo, either keep it to yourself or charge a hefty fee for the rights before handing over your artwork. Even if you charged them for the two hours time it took to redraw it, the usage rights are a whole other issue. This goes holds true whether you hand them vector files, crappy JPEG's, or a hardcopy because once a seedy shop (or customer) gets ahold of the artwork there is nothing stopping them from passing it along to whomever they please. The only way to avoid it getting passed around and bastardized is to never let it out the door in the first place. If it feels weird demanding usage rights from a customer who brought you the logo in the first place, too bad for them! They should have received useable artwork from whoever designed the logo in the first place.
If they don't want to pay for the rights, fine. They will need to go through YOU to get everything done, or you can build your own network of service providers that must agree to abide by your copyright and require your customer to use them if he wishes to use your artwork. In an ideal world they would automatically abide by copyright laws but that's just not the case.
I also like Bob Stephens idea. Charge 'em for a crappy JPEG and when ya get the call just insult 'em and say "Hey, if he knew how to do his job he wouldn't have a problem."
Either way, the customer will have to pay. He can either pay you for the rights, or he can pay the other shop (or printers, or whoever) to redraw the artwork yet again.
**Edit**
Joe Rees, what do you do about logos your customer brings to you? The logo technically isn't yours, it may or may not belong to the customer (depends if the originator is holding the rights) so handing the customer a copy of the usable files is in a way, distributing artwork you have no rights to in the first place. In your case, T-shirt guy is protecting his artwork so do you hand the end customer files of the t-shirt guy's artwork, thus circumventing the control he's trying to maintain and presumably has full rights to?
[ August 19, 2004, 12:42 PM: Message edited by: Mike Pipes ]
-------------------- "If I share all my wisdom I won't have any left for myself."
Mike Pipes stickerpimp.com Lake Havasu, AZ mike@stickerpimp.com Posts: 8746 | From: Lake Havasu, AZ USA | Registered: Jun 2000
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I don't want to get into an issue of copywrite. I don't believe in that. All of my clients own their artwork. But, I often times spend my time turning it into something I can use.
I traditionally do not charge for emailing the logo to yellow pages. But, struggle when someone wants it for a t-shirt screener who competes with me. Even the local newspaper charges my clients to mail it to me. Often I find it is just an uninformed client who was unaware that I offer that particular service.
It is that client that wants to "spread the wealth" that gets me in a dilema. If it is handled wrong, you WILL burn a bridge. What is successful for you?
[ August 19, 2004, 12:55 PM: Message edited by: Rick Beisiegel ]
""Good judgment comes from experience; and a lot of that comes from bad judgment" - Will Rogers Posts: 3485 | From: Beautiful Newaygo, Michigan | Registered: Mar 2003
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If you create a vector file from a clients design, you own the rights to that electronic file, but not the original art. If the client wants a copy of that file for any different use, charge him accordingly to what you supply and what he plans on using for. A black and white 8.5 x 11 print could be $25. A bitmap image on a disk can be $25 - $100 or more depending on the resolution. If he wants a vector file, I wouldn't hesitate at $250 or more. Fair use should come into play. If the client wants to take your art to another shop because they can do it cheaper, he's taking food off your plate. Let the other shop earn their keep.
Havin' fun,
Checkers
-------------------- a.k.a. Brian Born www.CheckersCustom.com Harrisburg, Pa Work Smart, Play Hard Posts: 3775 | From: Harrisburg, Pa. U.S.A. | Registered: Nov 1998
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If I have a customer who wants a file of something I have done for them, my answer is simple. "We use a specialized software which outputs to our equipment only and cannot be read by anything else." Maybe that's stretching it alittle, but it always ends the request.
-------------------- Frisby Signs, Inc. El Dorado, Arkansas Posts: 902 | From: El Dorado, Arkansas, USA | Registered: Apr 1999
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I've had requests for artwork from clients recently.
One client had provided me with their logo on a business card. It was almost totally unusable so I had to rebuild it from scratch. I also mixed the paint colors myself. They called up a year later wanting the logo file and the color numbers. I explained that there were no color numbers (I don't need any numbers to match paint). I sent them a low res JPG. It took about 5 minutes.
Another was from a newspaper office who wanted the artwork which I designed for a client. I sent them a low-res too. Should I have charged for both these services?
I told another client upfront that his initial sign quote was contingent upon supplying me with a vector file of the artwork. I ended up having to totally build the artwork file because all he sent was a letterhead....on a fax! He calls me up several months later and specifically asks for the vector file of his logo. I explained he would have to pay for the design time. "I thought I already paid for that". I reminded him that he had indeed paid for his sign but had not supplied a vector of the artwork as promised. Since I always record the design time and had also done so on his, I sent him a bill, he paid the fee and I gave him his logo in EPS, WMF and AI format.
My feelings on this. Even if the customer supplies a copy of their art on a business card etc. If I have to spend the time to make a vector file of it AND only get paid to make the sign, why should I supply the finished vector file (with no payment) so that a competitor can undercut me more easily? So that he can produce the same product that i would do but at a lower price...with much less effort? The customer owns his "logo" but the vector files are mine until paid for.
[ August 19, 2004, 03:19 PM: Message edited by: Wayne Webb ]
-------------------- Wayne Webb Webb Signworks Chipley, FL 850.638.9329 wayne@webbsignworks.com Posts: 7404 | From: Chipley,Florida,United States | Registered: Oct 1999
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Rick, I dont go with that "spread the wealth around" idea. If he has been your customer, and you have provided the work to him and he was pleased with your work, there is no need for him to spread anything. Tell him you rely on regular customers to keep your business going. IT sounds like he is price shopping and may have found somebody cheaper. If he still wants to go somewhere else, charge him accordingly. ON scenario no. 1, if its a good customer, Id email the art for free. If its a one timer etc., Id charge at least 35.00 or up depending on the time it took to convert the file.
[ August 19, 2004, 03:24 PM: Message edited by: John Deaton III ]
-------------------- Maker of fine signs and other creative stuff. Located at 109 N. Cumberland ave. Harlan, Ky. 40831 606-837-0242 Posts: 4172 | From: Ages-Brookside, Ky. Up the Holler... | Registered: Jul 1999
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Rick . . .Dude, I only consider it "spreadin' the "wealth" if they are using artwork in such a way that is ENTIRELY different from ANY service that I provide or want to provide.
I hear that "spreadin' the wealth", work, whatever, from contractors too . . . but hey, just how MANY people can they afford to hire for, say, just the framin'? Or for the electrical??
I mean, how many "sub-contractors" does it take to make a sign??
What I'm sayin' is, if the bridges your concerned about burnin' don't understand that, you did'nt need 'em as bad as you thought you did . . . .
-------------------- Signs Sweet Home Alabama
oneshot on chat
"Look like a girl, act like a lady, think like a man, work like a dog" Posts: 5758 | From: "Sweet Home" Alabama | Registered: Mar 2003
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Being in the Specialty/Promotional Advertising business I sometimes have a client call to order a particular product with their logo on it. To save them another art charge I call the company that did their logo and have them email it either to me or the company doing the product. There is no competition here and my client has already paid for the logo. This is usually a graphic artist/designer and my client is also a client of theirs. In this case I only see a win, win, win situation.
-------------------- Robert Richards Southern Ad Specialties Carrollton, GA 770-830-1501 sasga2000@a0l.com Posts: 138 | From: Carrollton, GA | Registered: Sep 2002
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Attached is my shop policy; a work in progress that I hope will deal with these issues for me and others. It's a long read but please read through it, feel FREE to take whatever you want from it and I invite critique and suggestions for it. Maybe we'll come up with the perfect policy between us!? Gettysburg Signs Policy I was asking these same sorts of questions a few days ago which prompted me to begin this policy project. 28 years in business and I am just now finding this to be necessary. I think the ease of computer illustration, scanning, and electronic file sharing has made some people not realize that we are providing a SERVICE, not always a product you can hold in your hand, for which we must charge accordingly. That's it!!! We are so used to handing them a sign, that we don't consider the rest of it a product! Each procedure we go through is a chargeable product in and of itself! Just like your mechanic who charges for an oil change, we all know how simple it is, but it's easier to pay $24.95 than to do it yourself. And let's face it - they are paying us because they CAN'T do it themselves, otherwise THEY can convert the files and clean them up themselves. Sorry for the ranting but...!
[ August 19, 2004, 08:38 PM: Message edited by: Gene Golden ]
-------------------- Gene Golden Gettysburg Signs Gettysburg PA 17325 717-334-0200 genegolden@gettysburgsigns.com
"Art is knowing when to stop." Posts: 1578 | From: Gettysburg, PA | Registered: Jun 2003
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If I created the logo/art work and got paid for doing so, they get a disc/cd and can do whatever they please with it. If it's artwork I created just to be able to cut vinyl with and they want me to send it to a competitor, they would get the same answer they would have gotten fifteen years ago if they asked me to send my pounce patterns over to another shop...."you've got to be kidding"
-------------------- George Perkins Millington,TN. goatwell@bigriver.net
"I started out with nothing and still have most of it left"
quote: ...I call the company that did their logo and have them email it either to me or the company doing the product. There is no competition here and my client has already paid for the logo. ...I only see a win, win, win situation.
I see a win, win, lose...
the ad specialty gets good art just by askin' (how often do we get that )
the client gets out of keeping track of, locating, submitting, or re-paying for art...
& I get a call from some stranger saying they need such & such... or I need to send such & such... or so & so said to send yada yada yada.
I mean sometimes it's easy, but 10 years of digital files backed-up on CD & DVD, and hopefully well indexed or catalogued enough to find some version... seperations to re-assemble, or rastor componants to mate with the vector components originally seperated out to produce different parts through different means... or assorted versions liked logofinal2.ai & logofinal3.ai & logofinalfinal.ai to open, compare, & sort out in my mind which was most current.
I'm sick of doing that for free, because like most others have said... when it was done the client got the art once already... & virtually EVERY time I've been suckered into playing keeper-of-the-files in the role of logo-on-demand dispenser.... The same lazy bastahd is askin for the same schitt a month later for some other whimsical idea they have of shippin out art for quotes for things they probably won't even remember they once wanted let alone ever actually buying. OK, I exagerated a little... & I have happily & willingly done this service for free for really good clients on occassion too, but I have also learned to say NO!.. or to say fifty bucks!
posted
and here's another spin, which I'm sure a lot would appreciate: A local big business with branches authorised to acquire their own promotional material got me to letter their name& logo on a heap of goal post protector pads, as well as a bunch of 'sponsored by' signs. Their logo was very intricate & a pain to digitise, so I phoned another local signwriter and asked if he had it in .ai format & would he mind emailing me a copy. Sure, no problem, he said, & I received it, unsabotaged, plottable ai format, neat & ready to go, although I did delete a few more nodes beforeI used it.
It's nice when people are helpful, isn't it!
-------------------- "Stewey" on chat
"...there are no limits when you aim for perfection..." Jonathan Livingston Seagull Posts: 7014 | From: Highgrove via Toowoomba, Queensland, Australia | Registered: Dec 2002
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Ian, it's also possible he acquired the logo directly from the company ready to go, or maybe he got it from someone else who already put the time into digitizing it and didn't mind giving it up.
It's just important to remember that getting a file that's ready to go is a luxury, and anyone that requires a fee to do so is completely within their rights.
-------------------- "If I share all my wisdom I won't have any left for myself."
Mike Pipes stickerpimp.com Lake Havasu, AZ mike@stickerpimp.com Posts: 8746 | From: Lake Havasu, AZ USA | Registered: Jun 2000
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quote:It's nice when people are helpful, isn't it!
That's what I thought but is this topic getting legs or what? I see about 4 issues springing up and some of them confuse me. If (and maybe this is a huge if), IF you have already been paid for the time to digitize the art into vector format, where does "usage rights" come into play? Nobody's getting anything for nothing but, in the trades, how many times does one deserve to get paid for the same thing? Or when it comes to "art" does this transcend the trades? What's the dividing line between sign services and art?
Mike - what do I do about logos my customer brings me? I charge them for the time it takes to vectorize it - and I do that 'for hire' so the resultant file(s) belong to the buyer. Tracking who originally made the art or who holds what rights is a little too deep for me - as is trying to maintain some kind of control over original art I authored. I realize I'd never make it in the Graphic Artists Guild. That's why I'm a Letterhead instead. It's simpler.
Speaking of Letterheads, I always attached a sort of 'Golden Rule" attitude to that participation, and extend it to all my dealings with fellow heads, customers, and the world in general alike. If I've got something I know would help you out, and it's no skin off my nose to share it, it's yours for the asking.
SONGPAINTER Original Sign Music by Sign People NOW AVAILABLE on CD and the proceeds go to Letterville's favorite charity! Click Here for Sound Clips! Posts: 1974 | From: Orleans, MA, Cape Cod, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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quote: Senario # 2, same question, except it is to a competitor, and your client is trying to "spread the wealth" so to speak.
The customer isn't spreading wealth. They've been shopping and got a "better deal"...IE: lower price...elsewhere and are avoiding a second art fee from that shop.
Simple solution: charge a minimum $50 file transfer fee for any of the files they request, but exclude vector art used for producing signage. Those files were created for your production needs, not the competitors's.
The competitor now has the chore of recreating the files for cutting and should charge the customer for it. So much for the "better deal" since there is now a second set up fee the customer has to absorb by switching companies.
This is by no means a foolproof method, but it does open the door to educating the customer the benifits of a real value...sticking with a company that works instead of assuming the "cheaper is better" mentality".
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Your input is appreciated.![[Thanks]](graemlins/thanks.gif)
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then they will need to spread a little more your way.
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