I promise to not stir up anything with this post, but DO hope to put some expectations in check.
Many companies that produce or distribute the materials we, as signmakers use every day, help to support Letterhead and Pinhead events of all sizes, with material donations.
Panels, mask, application tapes and of course PAINT, are regularly donated for use at the event.
In the midst of my travel duties for SignGold, I have the frequent pleasure of sharing meals with people from several of the companies that support the Letterhead movement through these donations. It has been the topic of many dinner conversations of late, that people have come to expect certain donations. (Most notably, 1Shot paints and relative reducers)
Every company has to watch what it spends, and these "working materials" donations are no different. I feel compelled to make a couple of comments on this subject, on behalf of both the vendors, as well as future meets.
About a year ago, I proposed to SignGold that we start to donate door prizes to any event that asks for them. I felt that it was just a good solid promotional idea. Now that it's been a year, I've been reviewing that idea with the company, and to my dismay...with nearly 20 events supported; we've only recieved TWO acknowledgements, in the form of thank you's. We got a very nice thank you letter from Pierre Tardif following FKAB, and we got an appreciation panel from one other small pinhead event( and that was my small panel jam). That's a bit disheartening for me, and doesn't do ANYTHING to help me carry on with this program.
In speaking with Frank Manning, from the 1Shot division of Spraylat, he too has seen an increase in the flat-out expectation of 1Shot paints being shipped to events. Frank, Tramp Warner and myself have discussed this at length. Two weeks ago at Mass Mayhem, I shared a personal story with Frank, that he suggested I share with all of you.
I host a small(45 people or so)panel jam at my home each year, and while in the past, I supplied paint, last year 1Shot graciously sent us a case of mixed products for the event. After my event, I packed up all those paints, and sent them back to Buffalo with Paul Straus. He took them to a charity event near Buffalo, "Darryl's Hot Rod Happening" and used that paint to help raise money at that venue. Those paints came back to me, and I took them with me to Michael Boone's panel jam back in February, where they got used. Then I brought that same case of paints to the 2004 Cavalcade of Cars charity jam, where about 15 of us raised $6,250.00 for the Buffalo Center for Handicapped children, using those same paints. I left them with Paul again, and he just called last week to tell me we were running low on 6 colors, and the reducers. 1Shot has, again, graciously offered to send me pints of those 6 colors, and those same paints will be used for my panel jam again this year. Then it's on to Darryl's Hot Rod Happening, and so on and so forth.
The point here is, these donations need to be stretched out and recycled. That case of paint from 1Shot made it to 2 panel jams, and two charity events, and is on it's way to a third jam. Vendors are not bottomless pits of money, and if we're to hope for their continued support at our events, we need to get on the ball. Share the donations with other events...gang up on an "appreciation panel" for that manufacturer or distributor...at the very least, send them a thank you note, an email, or post something here acknowledging their support.
I get to see these situations from a somewhat unique perspective, that as signmaker, Letterhead and manufacturer. As I was writing this, Dave "The Letterman" Jeffrey just called, and we talked about this same subject. He does the same thing with paints, in the Wisconsin/Illinois area. They share these donations from meet-to-meet. As a manufacturer's rep, he knows firsthand how often vendors are asked to provide doorprises and working materials for events. It get's VERY expensive.
I've gone on long enough (again), so I'll finish by asking that the next time you're at an event, start an appreciation panel. Use that Mack or Excaliber that you won as a door prize, dip it in some of that free 1Shot, and start striping or lettering one of those panels that Alliance Metal, or some other vendor provided for your enjoyment and education. If they are present,hand it to them and thank them. If not, ship it to them with a thank you. Let's not burn up this wonderful, generous resource.
Keep on keepin' on.
Posts: 465 | From: / | Registered: Jan 2000
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Brian; I agree, I can't count the events that I've seen those in attendance picking thru the stock of "freebie" products to re-stock their own travel kits w/paint or new panels. It seems to be an accepted practice as it's widespread in it's use. I wonder upon seeing them do that if they have a clue how much harm over-all that they're doing, seriously doubt that they are cognite of their actions, as most think large corps. have deep pockets and feel that they have right to pilfer thru stock seeing as how it's free to promoter. It costs someone somewhere, usually regular customers as loses are passed on to consumers via price of product. So, when you notice price of stock going up, just think that the reason is to cope back costs of supplying for free half of the painters in the country. Something to think about......I like your idea of getting mileage out of donations, send it on to next promoter for their event, has lots of merit. It's not just about slinging paint, it's about reality of life, and we are the players.....
-------------------- Frank Magoo, Magoo's-Las Vegas; fmagoo@netzero.com "the only easy day was yesterday" Posts: 2365 | From: Las Vegas, Nv. | Registered: Jun 2003
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Brian... I'm pretty sure I sent thank-you to all my Mars suppliers. My meet was held the summer after 9-11, and it was like pulling teeth to get any kind of donations. I was able to send custom banners to most of my meet suppliers, painted by Heads who volunteered. There are still 4 banners out there undone, to the best of my knowledge. I made a thank-you board (on Coroplast, o'course) and all the sponsors were also listed in the schedules passed out during registration. (except I forgot to thank Letterville! ) I think that the passing along of paints-n-panels, when feasible, is a great idea. I took a stack of panels from my PJ Jam down to the Dixie Meet. There is still a ton of paint (bulletin enamel) left over from the Foodland wall at Mars, being held hostage in a warehouse by a Mars citizen. After 2 years of trying, I was able to get about 10 quarts back off of him. He offered to sell them to me, but a pal at the fire station got them from him free. The same man also owns a box of AMAL that Doc left in Mars, stored in the same warehouse. I gave Jeff Lang his phone # and I hope he does the right thing and returns them to Jeff. I save all my meet paint that is so generously donated in a big box, and recycle it at meets whenever possible. I also give away paint when asked for it after a meet. Another thing about meets is that I think folks assume the hosts get to keep any leftover registration monies. That is so far from true! Since meets are non-profit, if there is any money left over, it must be donated to some worthy cause. Or the staff taken out to a nice dinner! I still owe Mars Boro $300....but hey, after I drove past the train station last week and saw a vynull sign on it that I did not do....well they better not hold their breath. I'm kinda going off track here. But let me close by saying that vendors and manufacturers are an invaluable resource to any meet. Treat them well and we all benefit tenfold. Cheese them off and we all suffer. love...Jill
-------------------- That is like a Mr. Potato Head with all the pieces in the wrong place. -Russ McMullin Posts: 8834 | From: Butler, PA, USA | Registered: Jan 2001
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Brian I agree I agree I agree, a simple thank you letter can build and nurture incredible relationships, from my life of many different angles in this industry (from apprentice, to journeyman, from sign supply and equipment sales, to business ownership and consulting new sign companies on the business end of the sign business....) I've seen alot, done alot and most of what I have done on the donation end of things I do for a couple of different reasons, one to promote my products or service, second because I feel it is for a good cause (and that in turn makes me feel good...and that is simplifying things quite a bit to keep this post from evolving into a novel....I acknowledge the importance of getting mileage out of these donations, that our vendors are in biz to make a profit and not bottomless pits, etc etc...but my little point of my post is that I am sometimes disappointed when I feel I should have received a thank you and have not, but I have never donated anything because I want recognition for what I have donated (except for the opportunity in business to present my products to my target market) as I feel that it is the wrong to give because you want something in return(except for above stated reason), but the greatest thank you that I could ever receive is for my customers to continue to do business with me, that is the greatest thank you for me in the business world and yes we should all be aware and acknowledge the donations made by generous vendors and I as well have failed to do so in the past and will be more concious of that in the future, but as most people here my thank you to these vendors (including SignGold) is to buy and use your products. SO while I am here to wrap this up THANK YOU TO ALL OF THE MANUFACTURERS FOR YOUR SUPPORT AND YOUR QUALITY PRODUCTS.
-------------------- Dan Streicher Slidell, LA Posts: 445 | From: Slidell, LA | Registered: Feb 2004
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Another good idea is if anyone discovers new products or takes a new interest in not-so-new products as a result of using said product at a letterhead meet, well then, when you reach in your wallet for some of those Presidential Panels to buy that product for yourself... LET THE MANUFACTURER KNOW. Thats probably just as hard as a thank-you letter, because telling your own local vendor may not do the trick... but if you have to dig a little for the address to get the thanks out... consider it another small way to give back to this great group that, under S & B's guidence, makes all the benefits of this site possible.
My first use of signgold was from the letterville auction. I used it up & bought more from SignWarehouse because they had donated the first roll. I had never done business with them. As a result of their donations I did do business with them AND I LET THEM KNOW IT! If more people did that, they might still be here filling up the auction with a constant flow of goodies... instead... well I don't know cause I never even go there anymore.
[ May 11, 2004, 12:45 PM: Message edited by: Doug Allan ]
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Thanks! for the reminder to look in the mirror. If we get upset at the"how much do you charge for" Post that come on the BB. We should take your advise on this issue!
I tend to bring my own paint with me(just in case)
-------------------- PKing is Pat King The Professor of SIGNOLOGY Posts: 3113 | From: Pompano Beach, FL. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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I completely agree with you Brian. Goodwill and common courtesy go a long way.
I have been recruited to help Kevin with the Detroit Gold n' Oldies meet and I give my word that I will personally salvage all leftover paint and supplies and make them available to future Letterhead gatherings. That is the way it should be. We're not trying to turn any profits here, just promote signmaking knowledge and skills.
Also, rest assured that each donation, each volunteer, and each supplier will be heartily thanked and properly promoted at every oportunity.
-------------------- Mark Casey Casey Sign Co., Inc. Berkley, MI Posts: 76 | From: Berkley, MI, USA | Registered: Mar 1999
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Heads up Mark! Some Heads take paint after a meet. Love, Jill
-------------------- That is like a Mr. Potato Head with all the pieces in the wrong place. -Russ McMullin Posts: 8834 | From: Butler, PA, USA | Registered: Jan 2001
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I used some samples of One Shot paint and size at RT's and Kathy's meet. Then I went to Gavins and he took me to a disto and I bought case of One Shot colors. That is a good thank you too.
-------------------- Leaper of Tall buildings.. If you find my posts divisive or otherwise snarky please ignore them. If you do not know how then PM me about it and I will demonstrate. Posts: 5274 | From: Im a nowhere man | Registered: Jul 2001
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And KC..if you need a couple of my 57 Chevy Prints for the Show.........as door prizes...just let me know. Shep'
-------------------- Arvil Shep' Shepherd Art by Shep' -------- " Those who dance are thought to be mad by those who cannot hear the music " Posts: 1281 | From: Mt Airy NC | Registered: Mar 2001
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Brian, I cannot agree more. I think in 17 years with Chromatic as the one responsible to send meet supplies, I could count on one hand the thank you's after the meets were over. Most were appreciative in advance though. As a meet host we always thanked our suppliers and sent along as much feed back as we could. That is why in 95 we had the suppliers in the same area that their products were used so they would get direct feed back. Any meet I have been associated with has sent along the left overs as was befitting the situation. For instance, Bill Hueg loaded up the left over paints from the walls and murals in Boise and personally took it to the next wall dog meet. I have stopped some from loading up their kits and encourage others to mention it to the next one who trys. Sometimes, they are caught up in the moment and are not thinking clearly. I can understand taking some of that special mix back home to finish your panel but beyond that is out of line.
Everyone must remember that the reason a supplier sends materials is to advertise and promote their products. We all must remember to thank them as often as we can. So to all...THANKS. (yes a shout)
[ May 11, 2004, 09:59 PM: Message edited by: Kent Smith ]
-------------------- Kent Smith Smith Sign Studio P.O.Box 2385, Estes Park, CO 80517-2385 kent@smithsignstudio.com Posts: 1025 | From: Estes Park, CO | Registered: Nov 1998
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ALL RIGHT!!! I am a piece of crap! Now I really feel bad. You are so right. I had such great plans after my meet and I have done none! Thank you letters to supporters and a lengthy post about who supported our meet and how it would be wise to use these people and suppliers. A great big thanks to the letterville site and to let every one know that after the meet me and don figured that we made about 200 bucks that we are donating to the sign museum. Some my notice there checks still haven't cleared due to the fact that me and Donald have not seen each other since the meet and I have the checks that were made out to his shop. I know this wasn't directed to any one but I am sorry. I haven't even posted in forever due to the shop being so crazy after the meet. You are right and I owe alot of thank you notes to every one that made our meet a good one. Your contributions were not taken for granted!!!! Soon my letterville friends soon.
-------------------- Ryan Young Indocil Art & Design indocil@comporium.net 803-980-6765
I highjacked Letterville!! Winter Muster 2004 Posts: 904 | From: Rock Hill, SC | Registered: Sep 2001
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nice to see positive advice and thoughts. sharing is the best part of letterheads. as for the sponsers: i was not aware of so little thank you's from past meets. we will do our best to make all sponsers-vendors feel welcome, because its people like them that keep us going.
-------------------- Kevin Betz KB Sign Company 21321 Ulrich Clinton Township, MI 48036 kbsigncompany@att.net Posts: 229 | From: Detroit, MI | Registered: Sep 2003
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would anyone be interested in providing a Thank You logo for the det. meet.
-------------------- Kevin Betz KB Sign Company 21321 Ulrich Clinton Township, MI 48036 kbsigncompany@att.net Posts: 229 | From: Detroit, MI | Registered: Sep 2003
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Hiya Brian, I mean no disrespect, but I'm going to play devil's advocate... Other than the annual holiday card or the occasional calendar, in all my years of making signs, I can't remember ever receiving a sincere thank you from any of my suppliers or distributors. Let's face it. Letterhead meets are an extremely cost effective way for manufacturers to promote their products. Where else are you going to be able to demonstrate your product in real world conditions and allow you potential client to experience it first hand? Trade shows are good for your sales pitches, scripts and literature hand-outs, but, they cost a boatload of money. Print advertising in the trade mags is also expensive and your customers still don't get the hands-on experience that you can get from a meet. So, should I expect a vendor to supply me with samples whenever I host a meet? The answer is still no. However, I feel it would be in his best interest to do so, if he wants to maintain me as a customer.
Havin' fun,
Checkers
-------------------- a.k.a. Brian Born www.CheckersCustom.com Harrisburg, Pa Work Smart, Play Hard Posts: 3775 | From: Harrisburg, Pa. U.S.A. | Registered: Nov 1998
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i feel sorry for any sign person. what are we worth? we all are here doing what were doing because we like it. the thing that bothers me the most is we go to extreme lengths to provide the best product and design, for how much? we as sign people are providing a service. they come to us and say: help me make money, put some lettering on my store, vehicle, building, etc. hey, i just bought a new car, can you "THROW" some stripes on it? I am so glad that the products and ideas have become what they are. when i see a customer drive away, i think to my-self, see ya in 5 or 10 years. the product is designed to provide maximum quality. sometimes I wish my sign's didn't last so long. then i could make money on them. the more we push for better products, designs, service, etc. the more we should charge. inflation and profits should be in line. krazy kevin
-------------------- Kevin Betz KB Sign Company 21321 Ulrich Clinton Township, MI 48036 kbsigncompany@att.net Posts: 229 | From: Detroit, MI | Registered: Sep 2003
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I guess Mom was right, a simple please, thank you, excuse me, etc. does go a long way. Geesh, that woman's no dummy! Growing up, I never thought I would of been saying that!!!
-------------------- Mike Berry New England Posts: 534 | From: New England | Registered: Jan 2002
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I think you may have missed what I was getting at. I never disputed that meets are an good way to reach our customer base. It's a great way in fact. But let me lay some cold hard facts on ya.
Right now, many companies who regularly support Letterhead and Pinhead events, are coming to the realization that there is (by intial estimates) a 75-85% overlap in attendance. By that, I mean that 75% of those attending a meet, have attended meets before. It's starting to look like 25-30% of those attending, are getting to two and three meets per year. So here's what occurs. If , we'll just call it "Company A", donates $1,000 in materials to a meet, and there are two meets per month...that's $24,000 annually in working materials donations. If there are an average of 100 people at each meet (and that's a high estimate), that boils down to $10.00 per head in direct advertising dollars.
That unto itself, is expensive. For a company to spend ten beans per head, is hard to justify. If the average Joe is spending, let's say $200.00 annually on Company A's product...and Company A is working on a 10% profit margin, that means that they've spent $10.00 to make $20.00. And before the naysayers start telling me how much money Company A is REALLY raking in...don't. After manufacturing costs, R&D, payroll, insurance, advertising, distribution margins, etc...I'm pretty damned close at 10%.
Now, factor in the fact that 25% of those in attendance were also at two other meets that year, and 75% were here at this same meet last year...ya don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows.
So there's the abridged version of where you're theory on meets being "cheap" advertising does hold SOME water, but not a lot.
Now, let's just say that Company A is a subsidiary of Company B, and accounts for less than 20% of Company B's overall sales. Company B starts to look at Comapny A and say.."hmmmm, is it really worth it?"
The other BIG factor you missed here..is that of reciprication. You state that your suppliers never send YOU a thank you. Why should they? They provided you with goods, in exchange for some dough. That's commerce. When someone is just handing you something, no strings attached, free, notta dime...that's WAAAAY different.
What I was getting at, is that:
A: Those working materials are NOT for lining a paint cabinet, aluminum crib or vinyl rack after the show. And ya know what??!! I know of an instance where only HALF the materials made it to the door prize table. I didn't mention that initially, but it has happened at least once that I know of. Shiet like that would **** off the Pope.
B: With more than $10,000.00 in freebies, that I have signed off on and sent out, again, I've gotten one (1) thank you.(OK, two, but one was FROM ME!!!) No Panels. No notes saying "thanks for the stuff". Not even an email.
So please just for your OWN sake, to help insure that the stream of working materials and doorprizes doesn't run dry. Use them in the way that they were intended, and make it a point to say Thank You. I'm trying to share some insider information here. Take the hint. It would bum people out if all of the sudden Company A, or B or C stopped sending out materials and doorprizes.
And on a personal note (not that this matters one bit), I always go to a meet prepared to work. (unless I have to fly in and can't bring paints). I work out of MY little bottles of 1Shot in my kit, bring my own panels, use my size and gold and even paper towels. I'm there for the fun, comradary and brainstorming.
So next time you're at a meet. Start an appreciation panel for someone who is supporting that meet. If you're hosting a meet...do what I do. I have 12 x 16" panels (a good, easy size to mail)all lined up on one board, with the event logo at the bottom, and the logo of the supporting company at the top. Nothing fancy..in fact I just do black vinyl on white.(and Tramp and Atomic Matt color them in!) At least 3 or 4 attendees add to, and sign each panel. I then send them to the company, with a letter, and last year, even a CD of photos, after the meet. I send out press releases after the meet, to all the magazines and websites. I list everyone who supported my event. THAT'S how I run a meet for free. Those companies are willing to support my event financially year after year, because they KNOW it was appreciated, and they got some good ink out of it.
And besides, growing up, if I didn't say please and thank you, I got whacked with that yardstick. Posts: 465 | From: / | Registered: Jan 2000
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We had great support for our meet. We did have a few suppliers that promised stuff and we advertised for them that didn't come through. I guess that is something that will happen from time to time. Hopefully we will be able to get out letters soon.(right Ryan) I can definietly understand where you are coming from Brian. I'm sure you guys feel unappreciated alot. I really appreciate everything that any company has done for the meets that I have been to. I have learned a tremendous amount in the last 16 months, since I started going to meets. Now if I could learn to use just a small amount of it.
I will bump the thank you post and vendor post from our meet just in case some of those here never saw it.
You have a good topic here...This is our first meet we are hosting and its been 5 years me and Bob Hines been talking and trying to have one in the Maritimes, and it's really nice to call suppliers and get positive feedback and everyone i've asked are more than thankfull to have us use and demonstrate there products this event is going to be benificial for everyone coming as a learnig experience i'am getting lots of phone calls from people that never been to a Letterhead event, what better place to promote a product, but the suppliers will be advertised and also thanks greatly at our event because without them it would be hard, and also the volleteers that help to make the event are greatly appriciated Thanks again everyone. This is a leaning experience for both of us too. Brian Hansen Maritime Letterhead Round-Up
-------------------- Brian Hansen Heritage Signs & Graphic Designs 6003 Route 495 St.Marie New Brunswick (506)955.8885 Posts: 315 | From: St. Marie , New Brunswick | Registered: May 2002
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Hey Brian B., Sorry for getting off topic. I guess the value to a manufacturer that a Letterhead meet brings to the table should be discussed in a different arena. I totally agree with you on the topic of what some hosts have construed as entitlement. I left out my commentents from my original post because of my poor choice of words. To put it nicely, if a vendor donates supplies to a meet and the host is keeping them for personal use, well, that's just wrong. However, I was under the impression that if there were leftover supplies from a meet, the host, if he chooses to do so, would keep them. It was considered a perk to hosting a meet. I remember a host "complaining" about having to add extra shelving to his storage room to accommodate all the leftover paints. I hosted a gathering many years ago that was a total flop. Only 4 people, including myself, showed up. The people at Signcraft was extremely nice and they sent many books from their collection for door prizes. Since there was a small turnout everyone got a book and I took the rest to the next meet. To be honest, I do not recall sending a thank you note to Signcraft. For that I do apologize. I guess the real question is how can we account for leftover donations and how do we get them to the next meet? That sounds like an expensive proposition that would be difficult to monitor. Should the leftover supplies be considered door prizes? When the event is over, should the attendees be allowed to stock their kits with them? Should they be considered perks for the host? Or, should there be arrangements made by the host or supplier to ship them to the next meet? I feel it's a decision that needs to be made by the host and the sponsor.
Havin' fun,
Checkers
-------------------- a.k.a. Brian Born www.CheckersCustom.com Harrisburg, Pa Work Smart, Play Hard Posts: 3775 | From: Harrisburg, Pa. U.S.A. | Registered: Nov 1998
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a little off topic...but not far, when I sold sign supplies and equipment EVERYTIME I had a new customer buy supplies from me for the first time I sent them a handwritten simple thank you for your business card and EVERTIME I had a customer buy a piece of equipment from me I sent them the same, about ten yrs later (today in the hear and now) I am still contacted by old customers and do work for many of them, and if I bump into them in a supply store (like yesterday) they are happy to see me, it is good business for suppliers to send thank you's as well, what a great way to nurture a new business relationship....it really does go a long way...additionally in my (present business) I send a thank you to every new customer, and I also send one for just about every order that they place with me down the road....(of course if I deal with them on a monthly, weekly basis I do not..... but if its the end of the day and hey want I will buy them a beer and sit down and BS abit, or take them out for lunch....whatever) these are simple things to do that will build business relationships that will last you a life time......so get your poop in a group and send out those thank you's what a cheap investment to keep your customers thinking of you....and ALWAYS ask your customers for referrals....
-------------------- Dan Streicher Slidell, LA Posts: 445 | From: Slidell, LA | Registered: Feb 2004
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Brian (Briskie), I've never hosted an event so wasn't aware of the issues you bring up. Then again I never pinched any freebies either, and I'm kind of surprised to hear it happens. I'm also surprised to hear the low rate of acknowledgement to the suppliers. Mostly I'm stunned at the suppliers take on the cost and tenuous commitment on continuing the practice. Who knew? High time it was brought in the open. Thanks.
For what it's worth, my first introduction to SignGold was as a doorprize. I was very resistant to spending that kind of money on the product till I saw what it did on the few test projects I was able to pull off from that small sample. Having it in my hands made me a believer.
SONGPAINTER Original Sign Music by Sign People NOW AVAILABLE on CD and the proceeds go to Letterville's favorite charity! Click Here for Sound Clips! Posts: 1974 | From: Orleans, MA, Cape Cod, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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That's great. And make no mistake, it IS indeed beneficial for distributors and manufacturers alike, to donate to meets and panel jams.
This "donation process" has become a topic of conversation amongst many of us when we're on the road...after yet another trade show or open house, eating at yet another Bahama Breeze, in yet another city.(It's a whole 'nother topic and story; but you'd be amazed at the friendships that develop among those of us that work all those shows and events. There's a core bunch of us that pick booth space near each other, and all stay in the same hotels, and have dinner together all the time...which reminds me, I still owe Henry from RDS AccuFlow a Steak )
In the same sense as thanking a donor, it helps to mention to them, or their distributor HOW you came to make that purchase. It takes less than two minutes to drop a three sentance email on a manufacturer to let them know that you just bought their product or service, as a result of working with it at a meet, or being introduced to it as a door prize, or that you saw it advertised in your favorite trade magazine or on a website..LIKE THIS ONE! And tell those manufacturers that it WAS indeed helpful having a representative from their company at a meet, or an open house. This all helps.
It's a simple concept. "Support the people that help support Letterhead and Pinhead events."
Keep on keepin' on.
Brian Briskie
Posts: 465 | From: / | Registered: Jan 2000
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