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Author Topic: Wanting to remain professional, yet...
Donna in BC
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I have an ex client that has just contacted me. They'd like a quotation on some firetruck striping.

Abit of history:

I use to stripe for this company for a number of years. They build firetrucks to suit. We had a very loyal and compatiable working arrangement.

Problems arose when someone new got hired. He was great at his job, however a red alert went up one day when he wanted to know EVERYTHING about my job particulars. Right down to font, depth of shadow on letters, supplier info, out of the norm requests.

One day this new employee asked me for some artwork for some signs outdoors. It was a go ahead, but he needed some ideas to present to the boss. You can guess the rest. I trusted him and sent them on with quotations. My designs showed up on the building about a week later. Apparently they didn't approve of my prices. Of course not, the prices included the artwork! Doh... So much for loyalty.

I confronted the boss about the 'stolen' artwork. I then didn't hear from them. Seems I was relieved from my duties as of then? I'll never know for sure but strange timing to say the least.

My current firetruck client had recently hired this 'new employee' of the other firetruck place. The story he gave me was that the boss felt 'challenged' when I approached him. So my instinct was right. He also told me that the company felt ALL my prices were too high. Strange as I've been working for them for years when suddenly... The 'new employee' has since been let go of his new employment just as a fun tidbit to let you in on. [Smile]

I hope you're still with me..

So this ex firetruck place calls for a quote. I quickly ask them who they are currently using for striping their vehicles. They told me, but they also added that the price on this certain truck was 'rediculously high.' (it's a high end special product in the specs)

My every instinct tells me they want a price from me to simply see if signshop #2 is in the ballpark, with no intent to use me. So I called signshop #2 and asked them if they exclusively stripe for this company at this time. They do.

When I was asked to do the quote, I actually told them I wasn't interested in submitting a quotation due to our past history. That they knew of my quality and price structure and in the past felt I was too high priced and that I knew I'd be higher than the other company. They balked. Then started drilling me about how long it would take me (hours) and told me how long the other company quoted. Told them I couldn't cold quote that by phone. He says, "Oh come on, you have some idea here. Are you saying you won't quote if we don't use you all the time?"
They wanted me to drive over to see the truck. I told them to email a picture. LOL

Anyway, I can't believe it but they actually emailed me a picture. I'm seriously debating on replying with "I'm sorry, but I will not be submitting a quotation for this project at this time. Thanks for the opportunity." and leave it at that.

I don't trust this company and I really think they're fishing for a price to bring back to signshop #2 or to clarify in their minds whether that shop is too highly priced.

Curious, how would you proceed?

--------------------
Donna Williams
Funky Junk Interiors
Yarrow, BC Canada
donna@funkyjunkinteriors.net

~ Check out the newest junk at ~ http://funkyjunkinteriors.net/

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Jon Butterworth
Deceased


Member # 227

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Go with your "gut" feeling Donna. If you think they are using you ... charge for it!

Tell them you now charge for quotes and the price is included in the job if you get it!

Minimum 1 hour shop time. Mines $60! Sure slows up the "tire-kickers" [Smile]

I don't do that to everybody, but been in the business long enough to know when somebody is fishing for a price.

Other than that, I give them a ball-park figure (usually high) and see if they are still interested.

Could be the other sign shop is taking their regular customer for granted and hiked their prices. I've seen this happen too. Maybe worth putting in a quote if it's not too much time involved just to see what happens. You may get them back!

--------------------
Bushie^
aka Jon Butterworth

Executive Director
HARDLY NORMAL
SIGN COMPANY

http://www.icr.com.au/~jonsigns

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Rodger MacMunn
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Donna, I may have a bad attitude but I figure if someone screws you around once, they'll do it again. None of us really have time to quote on jobs we're unlikely to get.
TR

--------------------
Rodger MacMunn
T.R. MacMunn & Sons
C.P.207, Sharbot Lake, ON
613-279-1230
trmac@frontenac.net

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Steve Burke
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Donna,

Not only do I agree with Jon, but they also sent you an unsolicited e-mail. Return the message with a comment to that effect and tell them that any further contact will be construed as consultation and billed as such or harrassment and referred to a lawyer. You decide! As you said they were already unscrupulous with you, and some people will go to any length to rip someone off.

--------------------
Steve Burke
Cascades Inc
NS Canada

If at first you don't succeed, skydiving isn't for you

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Joe Crumley
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Donna,

Contratulations on writing such a well put description of a client, artist realtionship. You have a tallent in writing also.

You handled the situation in a very professional way. Jon is right, "Follow Your Insticts".

When you have a ongoing customer that wants to take financial advantage of you, you don't have much of a customer.

A small budiness will never be a good one by being the lowest price. Many small shops get into this trap.

j.

--------------------
Joe Crumley
Norman Sign Company
2200 Research Park Blvd.
Norman, OK
73069

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KARYN BUSH
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tell em to take a hike! when i know someone isn't gonna be worth a sh!t i always reply with "thank you for the opportunity to bid but i'm booked solid for 3 months."

--------------------
Karyn Bush
Simply Not Ordinary, LLC
Bartlett, NH
603-383-9955
www.snosigns.com
info@snosigns.com

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Don Hulsey
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I would throw a price together(not spend a lot of time, but be sure it was high enough to make good money) then add enough to cover the stolen artwork.

If they go for it, ya done good.

If not, at least you didn't spend a lot of time on the quote.

--------------------
Don Hulsey
Strokes by DON signs
Utica, KY
270-275-9552
sbdsigns@aol.com


I've always been crazy... but it's kept me from going insane.

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Jillbeans
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Hi Donna...
Trust your gut. We are given instincts for a reason, yet we tend to ignore them!
I think this customer is just feeling you out to get a better price from their regular sign guy.
I would follow the advice of others above. If you're gonna bid, charge for your time and bid HIGH. Either that or politely decline and say you are booked solid.
I personally would not waste another second on this deal. Life is too short.
Love...Jill

--------------------
That is like a Mr. Potato Head with all the pieces in the wrong place.
-Russ McMullin

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Rick Sacks
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The first step toward restoring trust would be for them to pay you for the design from long ago.

Why re establish a relationship where trust and respect is lacking?

Donna, I think you're proceeding rightly. Backing away and seeking council. Looks like wisdom to me.

--------------------
The SignShop
Mendocino, California

http://www.mendosign.com

Making the simple complicated is commonplace;
making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, that's creativity. — Charles Mingus

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Curtis hammond
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I find it hard to understand why a company that makes custom vehicles and gets likely over $100 grand for it would quibble over a couple of hundred dollars in the final details.

Thats a false economy. The final trim work is what makes something really fine. It doesn't make any sence. Maybe its because they HAVE to pay full price for everything else.

Anyway, you may be surprised. They called you back for a reason. Maybe they found out you were better, maybe they found out the others screwed up the work somehow. Make the offer and see what happens.

Nutin personal, just business.

--------------------
Leaper of Tall buildings.. If you find my posts divisive or otherwise snarky please ignore them. If you do not know how then PM me about it and I will demonstrate.

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Joe Rees
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What I would do -
Contact the other striping company again for a frank discussion about what their customer is up to. You may find there's more to the story than has been revealed. Instead of you two working against each other (in the dark), work together against the customer. It's not collusion, just a fact finding, Letterheaded, open communication attitude.

--------------------
Joe Rees
Cape Craft Signs
(Cape Cod, MA)
http://www.capecraft.com
e-mail: joe@capecraft.com

SONGPAINTER Original Sign Music by Sign People NOW AVAILABLE on CD and the proceeds go to Letterville's favorite charity!
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Cam Bortz
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Joe Rees has an excellent point here. Everything about this sounds like they are playing both ends against the middle. So take away the middle, and regain control.

If you want the moral high ground, remind them of the stolen artwork and the actions of that employee. Because he worked for them, they are ultimately responsible for his actions. Show them that although you have been wronged in the past, you will consider working with them again, providing there is an acknowledgement and restitution of past grievances. How they react to that, coupled with what you learn from your competitor, will give you what you need to make a professional decision.

Understand how these corporations work. They task someone to control costs in production. That person questions every portion of the cost of building that truck, from tires to steel to paint. Wherever this person can find a savings, he takes it - that's his job. If the savings turn out to be false economy (because service or product is not up to standards) that item is re-examined. It sounds like the competitor underpriced initially to get the account (sounds familiar) then raised prices as time went on, to the point where their work was no longer a bargain ( this explains the comment about their "ridiculously high" pricing.) They have a limited pool of resources to get this work done, so they are back to you.

What you have learned here is not to expect loyalty. Some companies show it, as long as their profits are above a cetain margin; others compare and cut costs everywhere, all the time. Even the most loyal customer will drop you if their profit margin falls, because that makes them focus on costs all down the line. About the only place that kind of accounting doesn't happen is in government, which is why we pay $600 for hammers and toilet seats.

The bottom line is, get as much info as you can, then hold their feet to the fire to make them deal with you on your own terms.

--------------------
"A wise man concerns himself with the truth, not with what people believe." - Aristotle


Cam Bortz
Finest Kind Signs
Pondside Iron works
256 S. Broad St.
Pawcatuck, Ct. 06379
"Award winning Signs since 1988"

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Sheila Ferrell
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Donna ,
Just my two cents . . . .but I think you engaged them in too much conversation after they "dissed' you the way they did. . . they changed the business relationship, not you. Yet it has put you in the position of feeling doubtful and having questions and playing "business games" which I think some clients just have some kind of fetish for.

ANYWAY, the whole conversation to me could have been summed up in one reply when they called you for that "quote":

"Due to a change in company policy, I no longer give "free estimates" or "free quotes. There is a $50 fee for this service which will be provided when your check clears the bank.

Also, a figure for the design will be attached to the quote. Should you choose to use another shop to execute the design you will be billed that amount.

If you are still interested in a quote, please stop by the shop and leave the check. When I have the design/quote completed, come back by. I will need your signature to release it."


This covers your uh, butt, 'cuz if they use the design elsewhere you have a signature saying they agreed to your terms and you will have no trouble being paid for your design. It will even stand up in small claims very well.

If people wanna play hard-ball with you in business, you can always confidently, honestly and even "sweetly" play back. . [Wink] [Big Grin]


Don't just "wanna be" ....BE professional.

[ April 19, 2004, 01:27 PM: Message edited by: Sheila Ferrell ]

--------------------
Signs
Sweet Home Alabama


oneshot on chat


"Look like a girl, act like a lady, think like a man, work like a dog"

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Janette Balogh
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Rick Sacks has my answer. Get paid for the previous design work, then decide if you want to give them the time of day from there.

Nettie

--------------------
"When Love and Skill Work Together ... Expect a Masterpiece"

Janette Balogh
Creative Studio

janette@janettebalogh.com
www.janettebalogh.com

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Kelly Thorson
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I say find out the other shops price and mark it up, then if you do get the job sub it out to the other shop and smile! [Razz]

--------------------
“Did you ever stop to think, and forget to start again?”
-Winnie the Pooh & A.A. Milne

Kelly Thorson
Kel-T-Grafix
801 Main St.
Holdfast, SK
S0G 2H0
ktg@sasktel.net

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Richard Bustamante
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Hi Donna,
Great post. We all can relate.

I don't know if this is the right way, but
I'm sure you'll get some staisfaction out
of it.

Give them a very low estimate. I don't know,
something like $200US.

Two thing are going to happen. Both in your favor.

First, your ex-customer will find that the new
sign company is over-charging them.

Second,(and the best part) by giving them such a
low price, you'll get the job.

Heres the kicker. You decline the job, saying,
"You are too busy."

-Rich

--------------------
Richard Bustamante
Signs in the Pines
www.signsinthepines.com

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Donna in BC
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Thanks for all your ideas and input! As usual, I stole a little of everything from your replies and mixed it up abit and came out with something that felt right for me.

I will be faxing this letter shortly to them. I've invested waaaay too much time in this no go project, but their call really rattled me as we parted ways with unfinished business and hard feelings. Resolvement is mandatory for me before I can continue. Anyway, here's my letter:

~~~~~~~~~~


Hi there xxxx!

It was good to hear from you in what's seemed like ages.

I'm responding to the request for a quotation for an Abbotsford Fire lettering. Before I feel I can confidently move ahead, I'd like to bring forth some unfinished business that would mean a great deal to me to complete before I can confidently move forward with your request.

#1. Reason for dismissal
We had a wonderful working relationship for a number of years. I feel our communication was based on loyalty and trust, two things that are very important to me on how I run my business. Our working relationship seemed to end overnight. I'm also a business person and know some working decisions can be tough as they're meant to betterment a company's success. I don't have a problem with you not using me as such and using someone else that is fullfilling your business requirements. However, where I'm coming from is, I'd like to have had a discussion with how I could have achieved continued success with your company. I didn't realize there was an issue and am still uncertain of what it was all about. I'd like to clarify with you what happened in the past so I can feel comfortable moving on to a continued successful relationship with your company. As it stands, I don't know where I stand so there is potential to make the same 'mistake' twice.

#2. Artwork unpaid for
There was a situation where I presented Sean with some artwork and a quotation for some outdoor building signs to be output. The information I was presented with was, they were a go ahead but some design ideas were being requested. I felt comfortable proceeding with the artwork based on our working relationship. The quotation never materialized. One day my designs appeared on the outside of your building. I was told by Sean my prices were higher than someone else's. Naturally they would be as my quotation included the design time required to output the signs. Signshop #2 utilized my unpaid for time in initiating the completion of the signs. This is highly unethical within the sign industry as it's actually a theft. I now realize this was an error on my behalf, that I should have submitted a quotation before any designwork was to be done. I regret my decision and have learned from it, however the issue still stands, another shop benefited from my work. I went to Bob about the situation and informed him how I felt and left it up to him on how to proceed with it. From that day forward, I didn't recieve another call from Profire again. I don't know if it was coincidence or intentional, but I was confused as to how this all progressed without a need to require my input.

Good working relationship and ethics are to the ultmost importance to me. I don't operate my business hoping for a quick dollar and running with it. I base my work decisions on how I can serve customers long term, giving them the best work and quality products possible. In fact, during the last few years, I've dropped most business contacts that are a one time only. I simply cannot invest the time to continue to output the high quality known to my repeat contracts if I don't concentrate fully on them. It's what makes my business successful and my work higher quality for my client base.

I feel when the above issues are resolved, I'll then again feel confident that our working relationship will only grow for the betterment for both our companies.

#3. One time quotations
I have adopted a new policy for one time quotations due to time restraints. I charge $65 and if the work proceeds through, I credit that amount in the final invoicing. The one time quotation fee is to weed out potential seekers of secondary quotes to be used against other quotes that have already come in simply for comparision purposes. I simply cannot take the time to offer free quotations on a daily basis with my current workload. I am hoping you can respect my business decision.

Thanks again for the opportunity, and should you wish to discuss these matters, please feel free to call anytime. I realize this letter took much more time than to quickly fire off a quotation at this point, however I'd rather let a quick quotation go and build a strong relationship with a customer first. Thank-you for your time and your hopeful understanding with my decision. Best of luck with the continued success you are having!

Donna with Graphic Impact
814-2340

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Whew... time to fax it off and get back to business, where the positive workflow exsists. I'll let you know should they contact me, but I'm not holding my breath on this one.

--------------------
Donna Williams
Funky Junk Interiors
Yarrow, BC Canada
donna@funkyjunkinteriors.net

~ Check out the newest junk at ~ http://funkyjunkinteriors.net/

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Camille
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Great letter Donna - let us know how it goes.

--------------------
signs

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Donna in BC
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Thanks for the vote of confidence Camille. I feel like a nervous wreck. I hate confrontation and something still feels so wrong about this little endevour. I think honestly, I just don't want to work for this company any longer, but I had a need to explain myself rather than just cutting them off like they did to me. I hate doing biz like that.

I forgot to add in my initial post, that I did indeed have an indepth talk to the other sign company and let them know what was said to me. They thanked me for my candor and I initally told them I wouldn't be taking on this job as they felt too it was simply for comparison purposes. However, I didn't exactly say NO in my letter, so I owe a quick call to this sign company to let them know how I've proceeded so they're aware.

This firetruck company is CHEAP (under new management since I've been there and I know who took over, Mr. Wheel and Deal) and will grasp at any deal they can. I know they won't want to pay $65 simply for a quote and if they do, it would be a good investment for them so they could have the confidence to move forward with the other quote, but somehow I don't think they'll think like that. But stranger things have happened, who knows.

--------------------
Donna Williams
Funky Junk Interiors
Yarrow, BC Canada
donna@funkyjunkinteriors.net

~ Check out the newest junk at ~ http://funkyjunkinteriors.net/

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Joey Madden
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The letter seems more like you wanting to be a jouralist then getting to the point of the problem. Your #3 quotation may be your new policy but what does that mean to the old problem? Do they owe you money from the past or not?

I shrug my shoulders to all your problems as these seemed to have come after your move from the shop to home as well as your other obligations to your family while slowing down on your business. Things like this happen and thats why plans are made. I find that the world doesn't stop around anyone for any given time, and as business goes, you're either in or out.

I'm also aware that my replies may sound like a tint of sarcasm thrown in but thats not really the case. I just find that being on top of one's business takes priority if one's business wants to be on top.

Oh well.

--------------------
HotLines Joey Madden - pinstriping since 1952
'Perfection, its what I look for and what I live for'




http://members.tripod.com/Inflite
http://www.pinheadlounge.com/hotlinesjoeymadden

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Donna in BC
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Since becoming homebased, it's true I've become incredibly choosy on whom I do biz with simply because I don't invest the amount of time I use to in my biz. I don't take just anything or everything that comes my way, I try to think smarter with less time involved rather than working into the wee hours of the AM and making the same amount of $.

That decision doesn't have anything to do with how this company has treated me in the past. Before I became homebased, I visited all my regular clientelle personally and asked them point blank how that decision could/would affect our biz relationship. This one company under the old management claimed if service and quality were still intact, it made no diff to them and that they were estatic about both. I didn't fail in the service nor quality after my move. I merely confronted them about unfinished biz and got fired for 'some unknown and undiscussed' reason. I was told the old boss felt challenged. If they have a problem with me being homebased, I don't believe it's my problem, but theirs as I have not done any business practices differently other than to lose tire kickers and build strong loyalty with my main clients.

What did I do wrong again? [Smile]

--------------------
Donna Williams
Funky Junk Interiors
Yarrow, BC Canada
donna@funkyjunkinteriors.net

~ Check out the newest junk at ~ http://funkyjunkinteriors.net/

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Jeremy Paul Taylor
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Hi Donna
i just wanted to say that i hope you get things sorted with your customer,its very disapointing
when you have worked for someone for a long time,
& then they go somewhere else!reading through
your post makes me feel that they will be the
loser's not you. Jeremy T...

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JEREMY PAUL TAYLOR
CABURN ST LEONARDS COURT
FORRES,MORAYSHIRE,
SCOTLAND

Posts: 73 | From: Morayshire Scotland | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Joey Madden
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Donna my mistake I must have read the post wrong, my apologies [Smile]

--------------------
HotLines Joey Madden - pinstriping since 1952
'Perfection, its what I look for and what I live for'




http://members.tripod.com/Inflite
http://www.pinheadlounge.com/hotlinesjoeymadden

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Joe Rees
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Hey Donna, did you fax that letter yet?
If not, a night to sleep on it wouldn't hurt.

It seems very long for a business correspondence. It's more like a script for what you might say in a person-to-person conversation, which is probably a better way to resolve the sticky issues at hand. If you want the business enough to work through the grievances, all the letter has to accomplish is a brief outline and invitation to chat in depth. Hope you work it out.

--------------------
Joe Rees
Cape Craft Signs
(Cape Cod, MA)
http://www.capecraft.com
e-mail: joe@capecraft.com

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Deb Fowler
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Donna,

Just got around to reading this post. I am too familiar with this type of situation. It's like a slap in the face, isn't it? I would get the money and run! My motto (and I try to follow it always), is that if a customer aggravates you once, they will do it again. Walk away!
With all that grace and finesse', I would use that positive energy and drive to find new clientele. This customer has the classic symptoms of a loser, troublemaker, and will diss you again given the opportunity. If they orchestrated this deceit once, they are more than capable of doing it again, and will, given the chance. Of course they were aware of what was going on, it was their business. And, their business ethics do not ring true for you, and they don't deserve the honor of your talent and labors. Get out and about and find newer customers! You won't even have second thoughts about this kind again. It will be old hat. (and your letter is interesting, well thought -out).
Don't worry, their deceit will catch up with them, sooner than later. And you'll be smiling all the way to the bank, with dignity.

--------------------
Deb Fowler

"It's kind of fun to do the impossible - Walt Disney (1901-1966)

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Jean Shimp
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I think you handled the situation exactly how I would have. If you get the customer back that's good, if you don't I wouldn't worry about it. It's like a marriage, once they cheat on you can you ever really trust them again?

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Jean Shimp
Shimp Sign & Design Co.
Jacksonville Beach, Fl

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Mike Languein
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Ha ha ha - lookit who's calling "Over-charging" and has a soultion for it!

seriously, D - KISS - Keep It Short & Sweet. Too much words for the situation.

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Doug Allan
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I'm with Joe on the "sleep on it" advice, only for the sake of possible improvements(simplification) to your letter.

I write in long detailed thoughts, like I talk... & in both cases I've had much constructive criticism to the effect of the other advice you have recieved (Keep It Simple) I think I've learned to edit things down a bit myself, but I've had some real good editing advice here in Letterville too.

I think you make a good point that you really don't want the work anymore, but needeed to find the professional way to invite closure on the unfinished business. To that end, you've wrote the letter that says what you needed to say & if thats the real objective, channeling that old negative energy, then you're done.

If "remaining professional" is more the objective, I think you should work on your letter a little more.

On another tangent, I could see a subtle manipulative response like this working for me to settle an old score...

I would be happy to work up a quote for you, but since you had switched companies in the past based on price... lets just cut to the chase... you want a better price then xxx ... I want to have your business back... So, stop by in person tomorrow with their original written quote & I will beat it guaranteed.

Then if they take the bait... you've spent no time so far... when they invest time in coming to show you the quote, you can have an invoice for the artwork from before, mentioning that you had almost "written off" hearing from them, but saying how happy you are that they contacted you because your one previous request for settling the matter had not been answered, & now is the time to clear that up.


The relationship would probably be over now, but with little of your time spent, & enough of theirs to probably not bother you again, & IMO although a bit of a slap back... I think it still comes off as professional. [Dunno] If they want to settle up the past & have you beat the quote you offered to beat, then that would get tricky, but something about matching that price with higher quality work would only be possible by decreasing the quantity.. "I can match that price, but will only be able to do one side of the truck"

...OK, I admit it, I'm vindictive & immature & have no business advising anyone how to remain professional. [Smile]

--------------------
Doug Allan
http://www.islandsign.com

"you get what you settle for"

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Donna in BC
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Oh goody, I get to 'quote' Doug! [Smile]

quote:
I think you make a good point that you really don't want the work anymore, but needeed to find the professional way to invite closure on the unfinished business. To that end, you've wrote the letter that says what you needed to say & if thats the real objective, channeling that old negative energy, then you're done.
BULLSEYE! Exactly how I feel!

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Donna Williams
Funky Junk Interiors
Yarrow, BC Canada
donna@funkyjunkinteriors.net

~ Check out the newest junk at ~ http://funkyjunkinteriors.net/

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Mike Berry
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Donna-

Good job on the letter. Where i work full time we have bought 3 new fire engines, the average price is about $300,000 buckaroos! When we bought out ladder tower that puppy was over $500,000 bucks! Fire apparatus is not cheap and why they want to cheap out on the lettering/striping is beyond me. When we were looking at truck specifications, one company had it in their brochure for reflective striping and "simple" door lettering for I think it was around $2500.00, and if you wanted gold leaf, you were in the $5000.00 area.

Good luck!

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Mike Berry
New England

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Mike Pipes
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Why would they want to "cheap out" on the lettering?

It's not cheaping out to them, it's just controlling costs like Cam brought up.

Since they pass their costs on to the customer just like we do, they have to keep an eye on it. That particular market is pretty competitive, many states and cities in the US have a law that says the lowest bidder gets the job. I know this for fact here in Arizona, I'm sure it's the same in some of Canada. If you want to remain competitive you have to meet the pricing requirements, even if it is a difference of just a hundred bucks.

When a company doesnt keep track of all these costs, it's real easy for things to get hectic in a hurry.

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"If I share all my wisdom I won't have any left for myself."

Mike Pipes
stickerpimp.com
Lake Havasu, AZ
mike@stickerpimp.com

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