posted
I am in a situation I haven't been in before, and could use some advice.
I was recently contacted by a local marketing firm that is doing some promotion work for a local real estate developer of some upscale properties.
The marketing firm designed a sign for the real estate developer (a very nice design I might add), and they contacted me to make the sign.
I quoted the sign, and the real estate developer contacted me directly with qustions about the colors on the sign, and said they wanted me to do the work, and that's about it.
I was then contacted by the marketing firm asking that I honor my business dealings with them, not speak directly with the developer, and that I am the marketing firms client. The marketing firm added that "of course we marked-up the sign price ourselves".
I had no clue that they would mark-up my price. I should have asked and clarified everything up front.
I want to make sure that the developer knows how much I charge for my signs, and not have an inflated idea.
I whole heartedly agree that the marketing firm should charge for the design, and a "finders fee" for locating the sign shop (mine), but I don't agree with them marking-up my price.
I dont want to jepordize either relationship, and I want to protect my reputation, and ensure I am looked at as charging a fair price for my work.
I have always run my business in an honest and ethical fashion, and let the money take care of itself. I like to sleep at night.
Any suggestions? What is the norm?
Thanks in advance, Bob
-------------------- "The 3-4 minute mark of "Freewill" by Rush.
Bob Kaschak Artisan Sign And Design Peru New York Posts: 1875 | From: Upstate NY | Registered: Jul 2002
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Who hired you? the marketing firm or the developer?
You are contracted to whoever hired and is paying you, regardless if they marked up your work.
If you go beyond the Marketing firms boundaries and give information that will hurt the marketing firms dealings with the developers then you will tarnish your reputation with the marketing firm, which in turn can possible do more harm than you might forsee. Also I think that is unethicle (sp). Anyway what do you care if they marked up your price if your getting what you need to crack your nut?
In my opinion you are under contract with the marketing firm, seeing as you would not even know that developer if it wasnt for that firm you owe them the respect and courtesy.
remember, they designed this sign, they can get another sign shop to do it.
Do you ever sub out any work like say gemini letters? How would you like it if Gemini called your customer and told them what they are charging you for the letters? you wouldn;t you'd be ****ed.
Like it or not your doing wholesale work, You've been subbed out, but I would guess at your retail prices so hey good for you.
Just my 3 cents.
[ March 26, 2004, 08:02 AM: Message edited by: Bob Rochon ]
-------------------- Bob Rochon Creative Signworks Millbury, MA 508-865-7330
"Life is Like an Echo, what you put out, comes back to you." Posts: 5149 | From: Millbury, Mass. U.S. | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Bob I would'nt worry about it at all, this takes place everyday. The real estate developer knows he's paying the Marketing Firm a Markup. I'd Do the best Job I could, Take the money, Say Thankyou many times over, offer to work with them again, and just leave it alone.
-------------------- "Keep Positive"
SIGNS1st. Neil Butler Paradise, NF Posts: 6277 | From: St. John's NF Canada | Registered: Mar 1999
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posted
I feel you pain! You are looking at this like a buisness man wanting to survive long after the marketing firm has moved on to their next client.
There is nothing you can do about the sign you are doing currently. But, make your presence known for anything else they need. Be "Johnny on the spot" for them. The developer may feel ok with the price, knowing the price includes more than just the sign. Take the design, build the sign, and take the money. No doubt the developer will contact you directly in the future.
Either way, you can be the winner. Maybe the marketing firm will be impressed with your work too!
""Good judgment comes from experience; and a lot of that comes from bad judgment" - Will Rogers Posts: 3489 | From: Beautiful Newaygo, Michigan | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
As long as the marketing company is paying you the price you want for you work, who cares. And if the developer thinks the price is to high then they wouldn't buy the signs in the first place. I presume the developer is paying the marketing company for the work so I dont see how it reflects on you in any way.
And if buy chance the developer thinks the prices are yours thats all the better. Now you have a reputation for doing more expensive work and that can only be good for you. One of my favorite quotes in this business I read somewhere many years ago and I think it was Mike Jacksons, "If you sell cheap signs today you will be selling cheap signs tomorrow.. And if you're selling expensive signs today then you will be selling expensive signs tomorrow.
You can never get enough money for you skills in this business. Sleep well, I do.
And yes your aggrement is with the marketing firm. I personally would be happy to have a marketing firm doing all the leg work with the customers and paying me just to make the signs without all the bull that goes with selling your own work...
Sounds like a good thing you have there.
-------------------- Bob Stephens Skywatch Signs Zephyrhills, FL
posted
Hiya Bob, I'm surprised that the agency didn't have you sign or discuss a non-disclosure agreement. They are fairly common when you work with ad agencies. As for these potential clients, it's water under the bridge. If the contractor wants you to fabricate the signs, make sure you get a signed release from the agency, allowing you to reproduce the art. This way you can protect the agency and yourself. When working as a subcontractor, layout all the guidelines first. Find out what the client intends to do with the project and how it will be sold. Also, discuss contact with the end user of your product. Does or should the end user know that you're producing the sign?, etc. We do a lot of work with designers and agencies. When working with these clients we encourage them to use our facilities and marketing tools to sell our products. However, there are times where our client does not want the end user to know where the product came from. In those cases, we quote our retail price and offer a discount to the reseller. This way there's no possibility of the end user shopping us directly to get a better price.
Havin' fun,
Checkers
-------------------- a.k.a. Brian Born www.CheckersCustom.com Harrisburg, Pa Work Smart, Play Hard Posts: 3775 | From: Harrisburg, Pa. U.S.A. | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
The difficult moment will be when the developer calls andyou need to tell him to go through the marketing agency in a way that is somehow inviting him to talk with you directly for future dealings. It might be possible though that the agency might send enough high end work your way that they become a very valued customer.
-------------------- The SignShop Mendocino, California
Making the simple complicated is commonplace; making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, that's creativity. — Charles Mingus Posts: 6724 | From: Mendocino, CA. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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You didn't create this situation. The marketing firm showed poor attention to detail in not establishing the terms of their relationship with you "up front"...and one can only assume that they were the ones who gave the developer your name. They put you in this awkward predicament.
This being said I agree that the marketing firm is your client. You should have a discussion with them in order to ensure that they don't repeat the same mistake. Find out what price they quoted for your signs and tell them you will quote the developer the same price...with the understanding that if developer decides to buy from you, you will cut the marketing firm a cheque for the equivalent of their mark-up.
-------------------- Jon Aston MARKETING PARTNERS "Strategy, Marketing and Business Development" Tel 705-719-9209 Posts: 1724 | From: Barrie, ON, CANADA | Registered: Sep 2000
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I should have mentioned in my original post that I most definitley intend to honor the deal with the marketing firm, and I have no intention to go behind their back and work directly with the developer.
I just want to make sure that as people start asking the developer "who did your sign, and how much was it"?, and he says, "Artisan Signs did it, and it was $6000", when in reality I only charged $5000, and the potential customer says to themselves, "gee, I would like a nice sign like that, but I am not paying that much"!
I want to make sure my reputation is protected.
-------------------- "The 3-4 minute mark of "Freewill" by Rush.
Bob Kaschak Artisan Sign And Design Peru New York Posts: 1875 | From: Upstate NY | Registered: Jul 2002
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posted
I work for an Environmental Graphic Design Firm and we sometimes do those types of signs, but we don't get involved with marking up, what you might want to do is in your contract with the marketing firm, you are allowed to display the sign in your portfolio or marketing. One thing...if a person goes to the Real Estate Developer and asks wat the sign costs, they are already in trouble and can't affors it, marketing fims can and do make a lot of money at this. You as a sign guy might want to offer similar services ib the future IF you understand real estate signage and marketing. In our case we charge for construction administration, all this mark-up is is just that, they need to get paid to keep on eye on it, obviously though they dropped the ball here.
-------------------- Rick Chavez Hemet, CA Posts: 1539 | From: Hemet,CA U.S.A. | Registered: Jun 2001
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posted
I wouldn't worry about it reflecting on you, any professional knows, that he pays mark up when buying through a third party. You get your price, and maybe more work through them, that's good, no?
posted
After many years (first sign for money 1967) I have come to the conclusion that if you do work directly with realtors in the long run you will get burned, period. They are snakes. I know there are exceptions and everyone has a good realtor customer. But if a big deal realtor company contacts you and they have been around for years, why did they contact you instead of all the other shops that have been around for along time.
Here is my "Very Cautious list" and anyone can feel free to add to it.
Order of pain.
1. Realtors. 2. Korean Liquor Stores 3. Chinese restaurants 4. Sail boat owners. 5. Hair salons 6. Hobby race cars 7. Anyone whos wife/girlfriend, husband/boyfriend is good at art and wants to handle the design.
Well and additions, I know I got off topic.
-------------------- John and Diana Grenier Up North Studio Les Cheneaux Islands Art Gallery P.O. Box 83 Hessel, MI 49745 906-322-2886 www.lescheneauxislandsartgallery.com Posts: 50 | From: Hessel, MI (Eastern U.P.) | Registered: Apr 2003
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posted
i DID NOT COME IN THE BEGINNING OF THIS, BUT WHY WOULD A REAL ESTATE PEOPLE CONTACT YOU INSTEAD OF THE MARKETING FIRM? ANY QUESTIONS ABOUT THE WORK ON THE SIGN SHOULD HAVE BEEN DIRESCTED TO THE MARKETING FIRM. SOMEONE AT THE MARKETING FIRM DROPPED THE BALL BY TELLING THE CUSTOEMR WHO WAS MAKING SIGN. THE END CUSTOMER, WITH PERMISSION, POSSIBLY COULD COME IN ABOUT COLOR/LAYOUT/CHANGES ALL TO BE APPROVED BY MARKETIONG FIRM BUT THAT IS NOT YOUR JOB - IT'S THE MARKETING FIRMS! dON'T WORRY ABOUT PRICE MARKETING CHARGED, ITS NOT YOUR CHARGE.
-------------------- Michael A Latham Tee's Me Shirt & Sign 16462 Jefferson Davis Highway Colonial Heights Va. 804-835-3299 signdogopie@aol.com Posts: 379 | From: Colonial Heights, Virginia | Registered: Feb 2004
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posted
The one thing I probably should have mentioned, is that I live in a very small area, and only one other shop does the type of work I do. I want to make sure I am known for quality work at a quality price. I mostly do high end carved/goldleaf work, and I charge accordingly. I just don't want this marketing firm giving the impression to people that my signs are more expensive than they are. I do most of my work one on one with the customer, from design to installation.
Thanks again, Bob
-------------------- "The 3-4 minute mark of "Freewill" by Rush.
Bob Kaschak Artisan Sign And Design Peru New York Posts: 1875 | From: Upstate NY | Registered: Jul 2002
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posted
Bob, believe everyone here. The customer knows the marketing firm is marking up the price, and most likely knows they're not making the signs.
It may not always work, but the theory is they are adding value. How much and at what price is simply not your concern.
If the customer ever calls you directly for additional product, it's not hard, it's easy to tell him you can only sell through the marketing firm. If he says they said it's OK, tell him to have them call you.
The examples the other guys mentioned about your subs selling to your clients directly clearly illustrate the point.
This one is black and white.
-------------------- Paul Luszcz Zebra Visuals 27 Water Street Plymouth, MA 02360 508 746-9200 paul@zebravisuals.com Posts: 483 | From: 27 Water Street, Plymouth, MA 02360 | Registered: Jul 2003
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posted
If your that concerned, don't do the sign then. Either stay out of this type of work and do your own thing, or keep them, get paid, go get your own work marketing to this type of client.....it really is that simple.
-------------------- Rick Chavez Hemet, CA Posts: 1539 | From: Hemet,CA U.S.A. | Registered: Jun 2001
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posted
"I just don't want this marketing firm giving the impression to people that my signs are more expensive than they are."
You sold it for $5,000.00........they sold it for $6,000.00 and the customer is happy...............Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm you may be under selling yourself!
-------------------- Tony Vickio The World Famous Vickio Signs 3364 Rt.329 Watkins Glen, NY 14891 t30v@vickiosigns.com 607-535-6241 http://www.vickiosigns.com Posts: 1063 | From: Watkins Glen, New York | Registered: Sep 2001
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posted
Don't forget, besides ALL the legwork, the marketing firm also designed the sign.
You most certinly would want more then $5000 to do the exact same type sign for the next bozo that comes in & wants to embark on weeks of design consultation, revisions, approvals, retractions of approvals by committee, further design revisions etc. etc.
It's not a $5000.00 job anymore anyway... just $5000 of it will be done by you.
This is not to say that their design work is worth $1000. Even the sales work & design work may not be worth $1000, but the overhead & advertising costs of the marketing firm all legitimately factor in on their pricing structure.
posted
Look on the bright side. You have someone selling for you and aiding in the design process while you are still getting your price, saving you plenty of time and increasing your business.
Other companies sub to us and at times, we have to meet with their client to go over details. I tell the client I am representing the company that hired us even when the client knows exactly who we are. I do not bite the hand that feeds me.
One time, however, I got a call from a “marketing” firm, telling me that one of my very good regular clients was now “their” customer and that all future work would go through them and furthermore, they wanted a discount so they could mark my work up. I would still have to handle all the design and leg work but they wanted a piece of it. I sent them packing. The customer continued to call me directly and I did work for them for many years thereafter.
-------------------- David Harding A Sign of Excellence Carrollton, TX Posts: 5092 | From: Carrollton, TX, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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If I could make a suggestion - FORGET ABOUT THE PURCHASE PRICE. Your most significant upcoming problem is that the marketing company is attempting to make signage project management decisions without the benefit of signage project knowledge or experience. You need to deal directly with the RE developer about the details, because the marketing people WILL SCREW THINGS UP. Guaranteed. You'll be remembered as incompetent rather than as expensive.
Come to an agreement with the marketing company about how to discuss the dollar issue in case you are asked, although it probably won't be mentioned. Most experienced business people are sophisticated enough to respect contractual confidentiality. Maybe mumble something vague about a "package deal".
But don't allow the marketing company to obstruct or interfere with your direct communication with the RE developer and all the other entities involved. They aren't qualified.
You also might mention to the marketing company what annual dollar volume you would expect from a client before allowing them to dictate to you with whom you may or may not do business.
Good Luck.
-------------------- Jack Leyden Jack's Signage 1330 "H" East St. Andrew Place Santa Ana,CA 92705 Posts: 22 | From: Santa Ana,CA | Registered: Nov 2001
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