posted
Unless I am just an expensive jerk. Been dikin with a customer for a few weeks about his truck. 2 side windows at 24" x 24" and a tailgate that has 2 graphics (1 left side-1 right side at 24" x 20" each. All graphics are double layered Avery 8 yr.
I quoted the guy $339.00 and ordered and picked up the vinyl. Today he called to tell me that my NEW competitor (an autographics kid)who is about 23 years old quoted him $150.00 for 3M vinyl. $50 a side roughly. $20 per side covers the vinyl and he now has to design,plot,weed,tape and apply 2 layers per area for under $30 (1/2 hour) labor.
How? The guy called to tell me fo his savings and to get my blessing. I told him the kid is probably still empoyed and can afford to lowball and has to lowball to be able to get his business going. Basically, I am just venting, never been lowballed before. I have taken business from my competitors when I was the new kid on the block. I guess it's a good thing......At least I am not the new kid on the block anymore.
posted
I feel your pain. Wish you would have gotten a deposit! Remember the old saying...you get what ya pay for. I am sure the guy's stickers are gonna suck! If I see him, I will beat him up for you. Love...JILL
-------------------- That is like a Mr. Potato Head with all the pieces in the wrong place. -Russ McMullin Posts: 8834 | From: Butler, PA, USA | Registered: Jan 2001
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I was thinking of calling him for a quick lesson in competitive pricing but, my wife thinks it's a bad idea. I should have gotten a deposit but (and I will say this) we have been customers of each other for 3 years now and I considered this job "IN THE BAG". OH WELL.......
I have to disagree with you, that kid can survive longer than you might think, it appears he has another income, plus he's only 23.
When I was 23 I was single had little bills and needed little money, not to mention I knew little of the sign biz and the value of lettering.
Corey as hard as it might be, I'd try to befriend him and try to get him to understand the value of his services, and that he can be lower, and show him how much money he just left on the table.
-------------------- Bob Rochon Creative Signworks Millbury, MA 508-865-7330
"Life is Like an Echo, what you put out, comes back to you." Posts: 5149 | From: Millbury, Mass. U.S. | Registered: Nov 1998
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Bob, you've got a good point, and I think you're right on this one. What that really does is re-emphasize the importance of the kid learning how to bid competitively. Befriending him could be a great thing to do.
-------------------- Best Regards, Mark Smith EstiMate Sign Pricing Software It's Not Luck. It's EstiMate. http://www.EstiMateSoftware.com 1-888-304-3300 Posts: 724 | From: Asheville, NC, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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It won't take long before the new kid realizes he cannot work at those prices anymore and still manage to pay the bills.
I remember when I started my graphics biz, I started off selling the little window stickers and car club junk. It took about two weeks before I realized how many of those $5 and $10 jobs I had to sell to cover my bills - that's when I switched to mostly graphic kits where there's a little more room to breathe.
Now with sticker kids on eBay stealing their boss's sign materials doing full side kits at $30 a pop, and lowballing graphics websites selling them at $80 or $100, the autographics thing is basically destroyed - I'm up against a lot of competition there but I'm constantly developing new stuff to give me the edge and carving out my own niche. I've always targeted the jetski crowd but even now there is a lot of competition cropping up in that market - my latest innovation for the jetski market: I'm the only one specifically targeting the industry offering 15, 18, 27 and 30 mil thick graphics.
***Edit**: By the way, when I started I was also employed at an engineering firm, making a whole lotta bank for a 21 year old. I never wanted to lowball anyone just to get business, my goal was to do as little work as possible to make as much as I could cause I liked the lifestyle I was able to maintain. Yes, I wanted to build the business but I also wanted it to be self-sufficient from the get-go.
[ March 11, 2004, 11:47 AM: Message edited by: Mike Pipes ]
-------------------- "If I share all my wisdom I won't have any left for myself."
Mike Pipes stickerpimp.com Lake Havasu, AZ mike@stickerpimp.com Posts: 8746 | From: Lake Havasu, AZ USA | Registered: Jun 2000
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posted
I am sure that I will befriend him as I did with my other "2" competitors (locally anyway-as neighboring Calgary has 300+ shops.)the thing that sucks the most is that all of a sudden, I feel like the truck guy feels that I have been pulling "fast ones' over on him and screwing him on price for the last 3 years. How do I get him to realize that my prices are justified and not inflated?????
quote: the thing that sucks the most is that all of a sudden, I feel like the truck guy feels that I have been pulling "fast ones' over on him and screwing him on price for the last 3 years. How do I get him to realize that my prices are justified and not inflated?????
Don't.
That "feeling" happens, but you have to remember, unless they complained in the past about your pricing when you've done work for them, there's no point mulling over it. Getting lowballed makes you want over analyze why and what the repercussions might be, but, in most cases, it just comes down to someone who's willing to work for less $$$ (less profit) and ain't worth the stress.
The customer learns, regardless of what they may think is a good deal based on price alone, you can't get that deal again later when the kid's business goes belly up because it didn't show a profit. May not happen for a while, but it typically will down the road.
Personally, I place stuff like this in the "stuff happens" category and keep on plugging away. It may sound a little arrogant, but I've outlived a lot of other "easy come-easy go" shops with that attitude.
My 2 cents... Rapid
-------------------- Ray Rheaume Rapidfire Design 543 Brushwood Road North Haverhill, NH 03774 rapidfiredesign@hotmail.com 603-787-6803
I like my paint shaken, not stirred. Posts: 5648 | From: North Haverhill, New Hampshire | Registered: Apr 2003
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Right on, Ray - and Corey, remember that the customer is about to get an "education" about the kid's work! They will see the difference for sure. This one will work itself out.
-------------------- Best Regards, Mark Smith EstiMate Sign Pricing Software It's Not Luck. It's EstiMate. http://www.EstiMateSoftware.com 1-888-304-3300 Posts: 724 | From: Asheville, NC, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
I think Bob R is right on the money. I especially like his line about educating him as to how much "money he just left on the table". That will get him thinking about how much more he is capable of charging.
A pretty common mistake as both a yungun' and a new person in the business...charging way to little either out of fear of not getting the job, or ignorance as to what the market will bear....or, it's viewed as a hobby for beer money.
-------------------- Todd Gill Outside The Lines Potterville, MI Posts: 7792 | From: Potterville, MI | Registered: Dec 2001
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posted
What bugs you the most? The fact that someone under-cut you? Or the fact that you already invested your money in material for this job?
Were you in a contract? Even a "verbal contract" by any self-respecting, honorable business person should have taken precedence over another offer.
Had you not already purchased material, what would your loss have really been?? Just a little time an' pride?
The customer could have at least asked you if you had already gotten the materials before he dogged you out . . .you did NOT have to "give him your blessing".
If the customer told the young man that he had been seriously discussing the job with someone else, the young man's first response should have been to get a better understanding from the customer as to how far along the other offer was, if for no other reason than to protect himself from the same fate by this "fickle" customer.
Perhaps a lesson in good business etiquette and ethics should be given to both the young man AND the customer...
However, you are ultimately responsible for getting your down-payment and/or signed contract to assure your investment.
Sorry to sound so "matriarchal" here, but I just abhor sloppy business moves by buyer OR seller.
posted
It was verbal as the last 10 jobs have been. He is in a business where freinds hang out with him (like the baber shop scenario) and pick n play with his brain. 2 nights ago, someone mentioned the new auto guy in town and the ball went rolling (2 weeks after the ball was rolling with me).
My loss IS just a little time and pride. You nailed it. I did buy 2 yds of Olympic Blue that I will use elsewhere.
I did ask me if I STARTED the job yet. I told him I got the Blue but still needed his approval on his tailgate that had an issue.
He said NOTHING to the newbie about his competitor (me) already being knee deep in the job.
I told the guy that it is like going to a restaraunt and ordering food and then pulling out a ham sandwich and eating it only to tell the waitress that you changed your mind. ------------------------------------------------- However, you are ultimately responsible for getting your down-payment and/or signed contract to assure your investment.
Sorry to sound so "matriarchal" here, but I just abhor sloppy business moves by buyer OR seller.
------------------------------------------------- You are so true. Some people (I am sure EVERYONE has a few) you get familiar and comfortable enough with, you may come down on your price, you may go the extra mile for or add some bell or whistle, or you may treat the sale a little lax (as in this case) and get snubbed.
posted
If I had a dollar for everytime one of you said "Don't worry, he won't be in business long" I wouldn't be going back to full-time work elsewhere. If "Johnny Undercut Signs" does go out of business then there is usaually 2 more waiting in the wings. We are all foolish to think that this problem will ever go away. It WILL get worse before it gets better. With the nature of this business and the equipment used today this problem will be around for many years to come. You can call me nuts but I'm on my way out because of this very problem. Try your best to educate this young kid but expect to see him here in a couple of years complaining about the very same thing. I'm back working full-time collecting a check for forty-a-week and will grow old and dusty in my basement painting and carving a few signs here and there. The ten years I have spent in this biz have left me wounded, longing for a past that has come and gone and probably will never return. We have nothing to blame but technology and ourselves for this monster which has been created. If your going to blast me on my statements ( or my attitude, Mark) then save your breath. I realize there are many of you who make a good living in this biz but the pie is being cut in many more peices today. I wish you all luck. For now I'm going to go sniff some turp and get lost in my 1shot haze. Cheers!
[ March 12, 2004, 12:34 PM: Message edited by: Robert Larkham ]
-------------------- Rob Larkham Sign Techniques Inc. Chicopee, Ma Posts: 607 | From: Chester, Ma. | Registered: Apr 2002
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Hi there Guys, Gals, Whatever... Interesting post. I've been there both ways. Back when the earth was cooling, I got put out of business by a guy with a computer.. may even have been a IVB..., but went on to other things, keeping my brush hand in doing stuff for friends and not for profit orgs. like churches, until I finally got fed up with what i was doing and got back into the biz 10 years ago, mostly out of sheer bloodymindedness I think, because a sign shop guy where I applied for a job told me that "anything you can do with brush I acn do with a computer'! Well, I'm still here, mostly 'cause I do my own thing and don't worry about getting lowballed. Admittedly, it ain't fun to get shut out after you believe you have the job, but as someone said, sh** happens! You know the quality of your work, and the price you should get for it, so stick to your guns. It pays in the end, maybe only with self respect, which don't buy no beer, but is worth gold.
MUR
-------------------- Murray MacDonald OldTime Signs 529 Third Ave S Kenora, ON. P9N 1Y3 oldtimesigns@gokenora.com Posts: 781 | From: Kenora, ON | Registered: Jan 2003
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You should of told the customer he paid Johnny undercut too much also, if he had only shopped around with the other couple hundred sign people just down the road in Calgary maybe he could of save another nickel. If Johnny undercut is any good he may have stole your customer but chances are he is not that good. It wont be long before your customer will be back. Just send johnny all your PITA customers and customers that want it CHEEEEEEP!!!!
-------------------- Steve Eisenreich Dezine Signs PO BOX 6052 Stn Forces Cold Lake, Alberta T9M 2C5 Posts: 774 | From: Cold Lake | Registered: Mar 2000
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I hate to say it but thats about what I get. For regular pickups, I get 45.00 a door one color, 55 2 color, and 65.00 for 3,+ installation cost of $60.00 an hour. I am not bomb barded with vehicle doors either. Go figure.
I guess it all works out in the end because I have others that I have asked what they would get for this or that. I always seem to get much more.
-------------------- Laura Butler Vision Graphics & Sign 4479 Welch Rd Attica, Mi 48412 Posts: 2855 | From: Attica, Mi, USA | Registered: Nov 2000
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Hi Laura I think your American money is still a better value than our Canadian Dollar even with the added strength it has gained this past year. Would you do your signs for 25% less?
-------------------- Steve Eisenreich Dezine Signs PO BOX 6052 Stn Forces Cold Lake, Alberta T9M 2C5 Posts: 774 | From: Cold Lake | Registered: Mar 2000
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All in all, it is a good thing. Competition is good. Funny enough, the customer that found the cheap kid IS the TIGHTWAD of Airdrie. Somehow, I managed to befriend the tightwad of Airdrie.
posted
When someone sees an ad in a magazine that says all you need to get into the sign business is a couple thousand bucks for a complete vinyl system and the guy that buys it has a business plan that only states that he will sell his stuff cheaper than anyone else, what can you do?
They are like the customer that sees a bunch of color and goes nuts over the job...not having a clue whether or not it was designed to sell his business product or service.
-------------------- Rove Gratz Gratz Signs 342 Walden Station Drive Macon, GA 31216 rovegratz@aol.com Home Page: http://rove-342.tripod.com Posts: 861 | From: Macon, GA 31216 | Registered: Jan 2004
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Apologies to everybody from a once low-balling-new-kid. But in my defense, if there really is any, I didn't know better. No guidance from the salesman who sold the original owners, or original owner/s, and my hesitancy to talk with the local shops (who I greatly admire!) or any real knowledge in pricing structure left me in the dark. With people balking at reasonable prices I started going lower, now after 14months in business I let them walk out. I learned the hard way not to undercut yourself or the field. I hate food lion grocery stores in my area, they came in about 10 years ago building next to local store and blew locals out of the water on pricing, now they are high after locals forced out of business. I never forced anyone out of business but....
-------------------- Michael A Latham Tee's Me Shirt & Sign 16462 Jefferson Davis Highway Colonial Heights Va. 804-835-3299 signdogopie@aol.com Posts: 379 | From: Colonial Heights, Virginia | Registered: Feb 2004
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posted
I never noticed anyone mentioning anything about design. What is the guy getting done by the lowball kid. The same job or a different design? What business is the customer in, and when was the last time he lost a job.
Finally offer the kid a job. Contract him. Since he will work for half. Win..Win..
John
-------------------- John and Diana Grenier Up North Studio Les Cheneaux Islands Art Gallery P.O. Box 83 Hessel, MI 49745 906-322-2886 www.lescheneauxislandsartgallery.com Posts: 50 | From: Hessel, MI (Eastern U.P.) | Registered: Apr 2003
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Maybe you need to take a good look at your pricing, Bidding, Negotiations, and final Approval of Jobs you have on the books. If they are in line with the market, then forget the guy. If not maybe you need to set standards, let the customer know how much it costs you for a job like that and what you expect to profit. I spent 20 years in a very competitive food industry market. The company I worked for was the low price leader, innovator and did very well by putting their customer first. I believe you have to believe in what you are doing and the prices you charge and to be reputable with your customers on everything. Then I promise you , you will get the jobs and you may not get what you want, but you will always get what you need. Bill
-------------------- Bill & Barbara Biggs Art's Sign Service, Inc. Clute, Texas, USA Home of The Great Texas Mosquito Festival Proud 10 year Supporter of the Letterheads Website www.artssigns.com "MrBill-" on the chat page MailTo:biggsbb@sbcglobal.net Posts: 1020 | From: Lake Jackson,Tx | Registered: Nov 1998
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