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I learned this weekend that one of the largest sign shops in our area provides free sketches to perspective customers -- sometimes up to a half dozen variations. Their philosophy is to try to buy the customer and then keep them, based on the fact that customers get comfortable going to one place and if you don't give them a reason to leave they'll keep coming back.
Hey, I can't compete with that. But that might explain why we're getting requests to do sketches even for informational signs like "hour signs." When we inform these folks we charge for our sketch time we get a click on the other end of the phone line. This is happening more and more. I just can't see working for nothing. It took me a long time to build this business up to some respectability.
When I first got in this biz, I had to endure all those stories about Joe Wino Sign Co. and how the guy had to drink a bottle of whiskey before he could get started. Now do I have to look forward to 15 hr days where the first 7 is doing sketches for jobs I may or may not get. Is it going to be a design contest for everything we do? I not sure I'm up for it. What's going on out there?
-------------------- Bill Diaz Diaz Sign Art Pontiac IL www.diazsignart.com Posts: 2107 | From: Pontiac, IL | Registered: Dec 2001
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I did do free sketches, as in past tense, it usually always worked. I'm talking about quickly rendered pencil sketches. I probably would still do it for a long standing return customer. Lately though, maybe it was raising the shop rate, I've lost several in a row,so no more. You can see that I've been asking Corel draw questions here, the intention is to make a three tier sketch of an imaginary company, Mountain Mist Candle Co. What I hope to do is fax or e-mail this page to a call-in client, then tell them your name done like version A would cost so-and-so much, B this much, etc. If they want it in version C, then there's a sketch fee. That's the plan anyway.
-------------------- James Donahue Donahue Sign Arts 1851 E. Union Valley Rd. Seymour TN. (865) 577-3365 brushman@nxs.net
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what's for lunch, Benjamin Franklin Posts: 2057 | From: 1033 W. Union Valley Rd. | Registered: Feb 2003
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Hey,Bill I can appreciate your dilemma. We have done free sketches for years, but the cost is built into the price of the sign. Those few that we don't get we put down to overhead. When it comes to logo design, however, that's a different story!.$ up front for sketch time, plus more for the completed design. Mind you, we're in a different market from you, the only shop in the area that does it the old fasshioned way...like, no computer! Except for this one of course, which I do not use for design. My PC has an eraser on one end and a point on 'tother. MUR
-------------------- Murray MacDonald OldTime Signs 529 Third Ave S Kenora, ON. P9N 1Y3 oldtimesigns@gokenora.com Posts: 781 | From: Kenora, ON | Registered: Jan 2003
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Obviously they value thier time and charge accordingly.
When thier greatest talent is the ability to type on a keyboard how can you charge for a sketch anyway...so free it is.
If it came down to giving away free sketches to get jobs then I'm off this merry go round. I refuse to compete in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.
This is the only industry I know that continuously shoots itslef in the foot just so they can get the work. It baffles me sometimes why I picked a career with a multitude of morons
-------------------- Bob Rochon Creative Signworks Millbury, MA 508-865-7330
"Life is Like an Echo, what you put out, comes back to you." Posts: 5149 | From: Millbury, Mass. U.S. | Registered: Nov 1998
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I do it, but carefully. I don't have the years of experience that most here have. Nor do I have numerous good signs out there to prove that a good sign more than pays for itself.
I don't do sketches for tire kickers, but I do realize that the general public doesn't visualize the concepts we are trying to convey to them. And...like Rob stated, they see the signfolks who just type something on a square and think that that is all there is to it.
I do spend too much time on sketches, but in my case, I feel it is needed often to sell a sign. The big danger is having your design taken to someone else. I use a stamp saved in my graphics program as clipart to hopefully protect me. I think with today's technology and the "fast sign biz" we are stuck between a rock and a hard place sometimes on this issue.
Really makes you love those faithful clients who call, tell you what they need, then you hear, "do it your way, I trust you."
-------------------- Kathy Joiner River Road Graphics 41628 River Road Ponchatoula, La.70454
Old enough to know better...Too young to resist. Posts: 1891 | From: Ponchatoula, LA | Registered: Nov 2000
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quote: It baffles me sometimes why I picked a career with a multitude of morons
Could be worse Bob - you could be a politician
-------------------- “Did you ever stop to think, and forget to start again?” -Winnie the Pooh & A.A. Milne
Kelly Thorson Kel-T-Grafix 801 Main St. Holdfast, SK S0G 2H0 ktg@sasktel.net Posts: 5496 | From: Penzance, Saskatchewan | Registered: May 2002
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To negate this problem, I draw all thumb-nails on paper embossed w/my co. logo. When run thru a machine, my logo comes out front and center, effectively hiding most of the artwork, but, enough for customer to see it, but not copy it.
-------------------- Frank Magoo, Magoo's-Las Vegas; fmagoo@netzero.com "the only easy day was yesterday" Posts: 2365 | From: Las Vegas, Nv. | Registered: Jun 2003
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interesting point of view you have, there, Bob. When we started here, there were six shops doing crappy vynull... my sketches were a selling tool for us. Did it work? Well, ther's only three shops now, with one of which I have a good working relationship, which only leaves one other doing the aforementioned CV...most of my sketches are quick thumbnails, which is usually enough to sell the customer and get a deposit. I then do a more comprehensive sketch...drawing, actually, to confirm the design, and give me a working plan so I don't forget what I was supposed to do, as our turnaround during the busy season can be as much as six weeks. Works for me.
MUR
-------------------- Murray MacDonald OldTime Signs 529 Third Ave S Kenora, ON. P9N 1Y3 oldtimesigns@gokenora.com Posts: 781 | From: Kenora, ON | Registered: Jan 2003
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I'm not talking about logo sketches or even sketches for regular customers where you know you already have the job. I'm talking about all work even a "No Trespassing" sign. What's up with that?
I'm also talking about committees spinning their wheels at our expense. I can hear them now -- "let's get some sign companies to work out some ideas for us, so we can see if this is what we want to do." Have you ever had someone call and say, "I'm calling to just pick your brain..." It's like, "Here we go again!'
We've also got requests from people for logo sketches over the internet. In one such case, it sounded like a customer was referred to us by one of our regulars and asked us to proceed on a logo design, in which case we were upfront about fees, but after they got our sketch, they said they were going with someone else's design. When we told them they were going to receive a bill from us, they said our sketch was not going in the right direction and therefore they weren't going to pay it.
Their company was 150 miles away, too far for me to drive and bash in somebody's skull, but that's the way I was feeling. I mean if this is the direction we're going, I guess you sh?? or get off the pot. I'm trying to gear up how to approach all this to see if I'm interesting in adapting or not.
I also know of a sign shop in our area that sketches projects in front of the customer and let's them pick out alphabets and everything. Oh my God! According to him -- that way they get what they want. From our hand lettering past we've taken 5 steps forward with this and 10 steps backward in the respect category. We've even got people bringing in their kid's computer sketches (done in ACME printshop deluxe or some other award winning program) and wanting those designs put on their signs.
I mean I'm not a mean person, but I'm going to explode here. I hate to get mad at these folks, but they're becoming more frequent and I'm going to have to bury some land mines outside the office door to ward these critters off.
-------------------- Bill Diaz Diaz Sign Art Pontiac IL www.diazsignart.com Posts: 2107 | From: Pontiac, IL | Registered: Dec 2001
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Bill, could you do a sketch of the sign warning of landmines for me so's that I'll know if I'm going in the right direction?
Sorry, a bit of levity here is just what the doctor ordered. Bill, it's the way of our business and always has been, the secert isn't known to me, but I put up with it to continue MY path in life, the hell w/theirs...it's not easy or even fair, but it is the way it is....I have a few things I do that help, but for most part, just ignore them and do what you got to do to survive. One is; thumbnail sketches are free, but others are charged for afterfact of initial job processing, in other words, get money first. or don't accept the job....btw, what cellblock are you going to be in? (can't shoot americans anymore, law says so)
-------------------- Frank Magoo, Magoo's-Las Vegas; fmagoo@netzero.com "the only easy day was yesterday" Posts: 2365 | From: Las Vegas, Nv. | Registered: Jun 2003
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Thanks, Frank, you put it into perspective for me, but if men had PMS then I would be in the middle of it today. I'm using the BB to vent and that's probably not right, but even a dog gets to growl.
I'm headin' to the story for the large economy size jar of Vaseline. It seems I'll be bunking next to "Bubba" in cell house "G."
-------------------- Bill Diaz Diaz Sign Art Pontiac IL www.diazsignart.com Posts: 2107 | From: Pontiac, IL | Registered: Dec 2001
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In my opinion that will seperate you form the order taker / machine operator shops.
The reason they let the customer pick out everything is becasue they cannot recomend the right typestyle for the job themselves. They have no clue on providing the right service for the customer. Again they are getting what they are paying for.
And Murray I am sure you "free" sketches did not win your customes over at all, it was the talent you put into those sketches and I'm sure you fealt it necessary to get a foot hold in your community, that I understand and can respect, its the ones who feel that they have to give away a sketch to get the job.
I try to sell myself first and foremost, the fact that I will work with any customer to get to the point of finding the "direction they are going" so its just not a crap shoot to see if my design hits thier "vision".
-------------------- Bob Rochon Creative Signworks Millbury, MA 508-865-7330
"Life is Like an Echo, what you put out, comes back to you." Posts: 5149 | From: Millbury, Mass. U.S. | Registered: Nov 1998
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Bob... Sure can't argue with the talent part...hehehehe. I think, tho', it depends a lot on the area, e.g. here we have a major influx of summer residents with SERIOUS summer homes. We do a lot of carved and/or painted signs for private cottages, along with the commercial work, and these folks want to see what their sign is going to be . Guess I've just got into the habit of giving them a sketch to approve. Probably take more time over them than I should, but it keeps the doors open.
MUR
-------------------- Murray MacDonald OldTime Signs 529 Third Ave S Kenora, ON. P9N 1Y3 oldtimesigns@gokenora.com Posts: 781 | From: Kenora, ON | Registered: Jan 2003
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I don't think about designing/ sketching/ comping until I receive a check. once we have a commitment to work, then I can commit to coming up with something.
the only exception to this is _rough_ sketches i do -- in my sketchbook -- during a sales call. these are usually just to rough out the shape or size of the sign and the storefront or whatever. those pages never leave my sketchbook and i don't make copies.
-------------------- :: Scooter Marriner :: :: Coyote Signs :: :: Oakland, CA :: :: still a beginner :: :: Posts: 1356 | From: Oakland (and San Francisco) | Registered: Mar 2001
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I even got on Don Copeland's hiney one time for suggesting using a lap top to design a sketch for the customers, and then I did the same as he suggested and sold two jobs, enough to pay for the laptop!
Sorry Don, you were right! Im a believer.
I took my lap top out to a local car dealership, designed the sign project they had for me, right in front of them, and then gave them a quote. They thought it was so neat I could do that right there and then that they gave me the job (the next day),They didn't even get another quote. Since I had the sketch on the lap top, I wasn't about to load some printer software on my unit to print them out a copy on their printer.
I just closed the lid and waited for them to make the next move.
I think this technique could be done at the shop also with a little will power. Design it, leave it on the computer, then let them decide yes or no. If they ask for a a paper print, ask them for a paper check. Fair is fair!
"I got to let my wife see the sketch"...
"Bring her in her and I'll open the file."
I agree, life aint always fair when it comes to sketches, but that's the way it is in the sign biz.
Most of my customers I never even see face to face because of the online nature of my business.
Therefore, I have absolutely no problem telling anyone inquiring about sketches and such that I need a credit card number to bill for design fees before I do anything.
When you get as many inquiries as I do every day, there's no way in the world *anyone* is going to get even a quickie sketch without paying for the time to do it.
-------------------- "If I share all my wisdom I won't have any left for myself."
Mike Pipes stickerpimp.com Lake Havasu, AZ mike@stickerpimp.com Posts: 8746 | From: Lake Havasu, AZ USA | Registered: Jun 2000
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I am in the same dilemma. I stopped by a new location to offer my services and they have a box truck to letter, he calls me the next day, I measure, do some thumbnails. He wants some digital prints on them as well, He says he will e-mail them to me.
At the end of the conversation I ask if anyone else is involved in the bidding and he says one other company. I say I will quote it for free, but I charge a design fee, I explain that I have done so many designs that I did not get compensated for. He says to work up an estimate, but no design.
I am still waiting for the digital prints to be e-mailed. I have called & left messages. I wonder if I lost a sale because I would not do a free design???? Should I just do a quick estimate of the prints and lettering without the artwork? As I get busier, I value my time a lot more. Would an architect do free designs to see if a customer liked the way the design was headed?
In my area we have spoiled the customers with free designs. I have hundreds of sketches from when I worked for another company. We got paid $20. an hour to do them then, so I didn't mind.
So to answer your question, sometimes I do & sometimes I don't. Lately, I want to get paid for my time. But the mentality here, is against it.
-------------------- Rob Thomas 3410 Ketcham Ct Beautiful Springs FL 34134 Posts: 965 | From: Bonita Springs, Florida USA | Registered: Feb 2000
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"Design it, leave it on the computer, then let them decide yes or no. If they ask for a a paper print, ask them for a paper check. Fair is fair!" No art/sketch leaves the office without at least 50% of job cost in hand.
This technique also plays well with the 3 tiered pricing.
Occasionally, I'll get a burr in the butt and try to get sketch $$ up front, and never see the customer again.
-------------------- Bill Dirkes Cornhole Art LLC Bellevue, Ky. Goodnight Mrs. Calabash, wherever you are. Posts: 591 | From: Bellevue,Ky. US | Registered: Aug 1999
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Robert, you put it the way I should have, about the architect and such. And Dave we do like you with the sketch on the computer and getting money for prints that go out the door. I have not tried the laptop thing, because I feel guarded about the actual sketch process. I have always felt that if the customer sees you zooming around on the computer, he assumes the sign is going to zoom out the door, and expects the price and the time to produce the product to reflect this.
If I get the customer in the door to review the sketch, that's what I want. I'll let my wife charm them at the point which she usually does. They can roam around the office and see work orders and artwork and feel confident we can be their sign company. But increasingly it's all done on the phone, which is not first hand enough for me. I'm not a phone person on sales. I like to wheel out a pencil even when I'm talking about something mundane like mowing the grass. That's just me. I don't mind turning the work down, if a phone call gets too impersonal, but the phone does ring more and more about these kinds of things. Each call delays work in progress from a Ma and Pa operation such as ours.
If the concensus is free sketches, that's O.K. Let's level the playing field with it. I still probably won't do it, because of the time involved, but I think everyone else is degrading their area of expertise by doing it. Also where does it stop. If you give a person one free design contest type sketch, eventually the bar will be raised to 2, then 3 sketches, etc. Now eventually you've got to realize we're not selling cars here. You're going to eventually have to make the product. It all boils down to how many hours in proportion to the total hours you put in each week are you wanting to devote to free sketches.
-------------------- Bill Diaz Diaz Sign Art Pontiac IL www.diazsignart.com Posts: 2107 | From: Pontiac, IL | Registered: Dec 2001
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I have a stack of free sketches which never panned out.....I'm a slow learner.
The majority of my work comes from repeat customers and a lot of the rest are from word-of-mouth. If they can't trust me to design them something with a deposit in hand, why should I give them a free sketch? Now, they can look at my portfolio. If my work meets their level of expectation, they can give me a deposit and I begin the design process. Sometimes I do go to the computer and do a quick layout to help them decide on letter size etc. but it doesn't leave the shop.
-------------------- Wayne Webb Webb Signworks Chipley, FL 850.638.9329 wayne@webbsignworks.com Posts: 7403 | From: Chipley,Florida,United States | Registered: Oct 1999
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I recently had a customer or should I say waste of timer come in sit down talk about his logo and wanting it redone, seems he doesnt have the original artwork anymore, anyway I spent about 40 minutes with him finding out what he needed and what not, then the infamous words came out" draw up some sketcjes and let me see what it looks like" I told him I needed a sketch deposit to get started, well that sent up a red flag, he didnt have the money he said, so out the door he went.
Now, yes I was bumming right now I need the work more than ever but I also need the money more than ever too, I can draw all day for free for myself, but I'll be damned if I'm going to do it for a customer. I wonder if he would have come in and sanded a hardwood floor for me just to see if it was what I wanted first without any money?
-------------------- Bob Rochon Creative Signworks Millbury, MA 508-865-7330
"Life is Like an Echo, what you put out, comes back to you." Posts: 5149 | From: Millbury, Mass. U.S. | Registered: Nov 1998
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I remember back precomputer/hand lettering days when I came up with what I thought was a brilliant idea. It turned out to be a terrible idea. I have bounced around from mistake to mistake all along. I aced the School of Hard Knocks.
Early in my sign career,I made an elaborate chart showing a block, serif, casual and casual script lettering styles in 3 different stages of embelishment: plain, shaded and highly embellished. I had an example of each style with a price per letter, and different prices for sizes of letters.
As you can imagine this chart was huge and wordy, and no matter how neatly I presented it, it was confusing and busy. One day a guy came in and looked at this chart and said, "What's all this?" It took me 15 minutes to explain it, and I could see his eyes roll back in his head. Finally he said, "Hey I just came in here for a sign, I didn't know I was going to have to go to college first." He turned around and walked out the door. That chart came down immediately, but not before word had it that I charged by the letter. So one day a guy came in wanting his state numbers lettered on his boat. I was sitting there whipping out letters on a 4 x 8. He wanted to know the cost, which was $25, and he said, "let's see $25 divided by 14 letters." Then he watched me and announced that I had just made $5 lettering while he was standing there, and that I must be some kind of a shyster. I told him to get the hey out of the shop, and since I had only been in business a few years, I was convinced the word would get out and I would be through. The public was forgiving, I lucked out, and the rest is history.
The reason for this story is to explain that I learned to keep things simple and keep the process hidden from the customer. The majority of customers don't need an explanation on how you arrive at your prices. It's none of their business about your fixed cost, etc., and I kind of feel like that about choices of alphabets and design. If you sit there and design in front of them, they are going to try to get the letters as large as they can, even though they haven't been schooled about such things as crowding the edges, etc. They don't know who Mike Stevens is and don't care. They like teal, mauve, weird color combinations, and want to put every single bit of information as possible on a sign, just in case, even though it's a 4 X 8 sitting 100 yards from the road.
It's a battle to get them to do it your way, even though you've already made all the mistakes. The battle is made worse by the fact that we are letting them "committee up" on the design process and giving them too many options. Nobody questions the carpenter about how many nails he puts in the studs when he frames up a house. By doing what we're doing we're making the process more difficult that it needs to be. The net result is a lot of ugly signs polluting our environments.
-------------------- Bill Diaz Diaz Sign Art Pontiac IL www.diazsignart.com Posts: 2107 | From: Pontiac, IL | Registered: Dec 2001
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I also agree with Dave... ive recently moved to a new area and have really put the laptop to work...ive never been asked for a copy and ive always closed the job...i work out of a shop but offer a mobile service.... one of the first customers i met with was happy,,, his comment was that in the past what i just did was a three day process dealing with other local sign shops.... him getting into shop, waiting a day, then coming back....hhahah and unlike checker's comment,, this is like burger king,, you can have it your way! (humor)
-------------------- Del Badry philmdesign Sylvan Lake, Alberta Posts: 636 | From: Sylvan Lake, Alberta | Registered: Nov 1998
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Designing a sign is an integral part of making the sign. It isn't a free service.
I ask my mechanic how much to fix my car; he says diagnostic fee of x number of dollars, then he can tell me how much to repair it. (Diagnosing the problem is an integral part of fixing the problem.) I ask a plumber how much to fix my shower; he says service call x number of dollars, then he can tell me how much to repair it. (Diagnosing the problem is an integral part of fixing the problem.) I schedule an appointment with attorney or CPA, ask how much for some particular service; they listen to me for free for about 5 minutes, then tell me that they are currently billing $325 per hour, my job will take between 13 and 25 hours, please schedule an appointment with the secretary when I give her a $5000 retainer check, now if there's nothing else he is running late for another appointment good by. (Analyzing the problem and designing a course of action is an integral part of their service.)
A free sign design is like free advice: worth every nickel you pay for it. The good clients know this.
[ February 04, 2004, 05:06 PM: Message edited by: Jack Leyden ]
-------------------- Jack Leyden Jack's Signage 1330 "H" East St. Andrew Place Santa Ana,CA 92705 Posts: 22 | From: Santa Ana,CA | Registered: Nov 2001
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quote:Originally posted by Robert Thomas: Would an architect do free designs to see if a customer liked the way the design was headed?
Not only would an architect do a free concept sketch, scores of architects would draw up renderings for the chance to compete and possibly win a contract on a building.
Of course it depends on the type of project but all the architects that submitted sketches or renderings for the new tower to replace the World Trade Center twins did so free of charge. This *is* a different level of project though. It's a prestigious building to have the chance to design and the firms involved are all multimillionaires that can afford to drop a few hours on a sketch.
It also depends on what is considered as a sketch. The concept sketch for the Disney Concert Hall in LA was just some random scribbles on a bar napkin, drawn by Frank Gehry, in a matter of seconds. The final result is absolutely gorgeous.
If you can do a free *sketch* in five minutes go for it. The key is to not spend much time on it. Knock it out in a couple minutes just to get a rough idea. A sketch is a rough idea, not a final design. I usually won't even provide a sketch because by the time I draw it, scan it and email it there's 20 minutes gone... and nothing saying they won't take the sketch to someone else to have it produced.
-------------------- "If I share all my wisdom I won't have any left for myself."
Mike Pipes stickerpimp.com Lake Havasu, AZ mike@stickerpimp.com Posts: 8746 | From: Lake Havasu, AZ USA | Registered: Jun 2000
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I used to run a one man commercial shop. These days it's 90% mobile pinstriping. If I had to compete with the "new breed" instead of shooting myself in the foot, it would be in the head
Let's all see how cheap we can work. Would these folks walk into a GM plant and offer to work there for 1/5 the pay?????????
-------------------- George Perkins Millington,TN. goatwell@bigriver.net
"I started out with nothing and still have most of it left"
posted
For layout-I might do a freebie-but that would take 5 minutes tops? For an actuall design-I charge for it-any customer who comes in an expect a freebie, will never afford me anyways-so I don't waste my or thier time. I work in the high end, even the free" competitions has some compensation to it-we recently did a job where we competitivley designed a logo-we were paid for the concepts prior to them choosing a designer, we ended up winning it-but we still would have been paid.
-------------------- Rick Chavez Hemet, CA Posts: 1538 | From: Hemet,CA U.S.A. | Registered: Jun 2001
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I quit doing free sketches years ago when I found my so called client took my sketch to a competing shop and bought the job without me even having a chance to bid. I don't know how the competion you are talking about is priced compared to your pricing but I foind that unless they are just a sleezeball that they get the money back for the sketches somewhere along the line and what the customer thinks is free is not really.
-------------------- Robert M. Kistler South Bend Screen Process, Inc. 2018 S. Franklin St. South Bend IN 46613 Posts: 131 | From: South Bend Indiana | Registered: Jul 2003
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Sheeeesh! 27 posts....and no one mentioned that we are professionals at our biz...why not act like one?
There is no such thing as a free lunnch....or free design!
If other shops are doing free designs, even on "np parking signs"...GREAT! The more they do, the sooner that they will go broke!
How much money can you make on a $75 sign, if you spend an hour messing arond with a customer, trying to get the job?
My attitude is...."If you want design choices, pay for them....or go waste someone elses time!"
If they bring in "my son did this on our comuter" design...simply say, "Not bad design, but it won't work for your particular application! Your son is a very talented amatuer, but you need a professionally done sign! It will cost you XXX dollars to make what you really need."
Just my 2 cents worth, 2.5 Cents CDN.
PS......... Taking a laptop at a customer's place to do a rough layout...worlks GREAT! I also take a digicam along too! Take a pic of their truck, or building, and a "quickie" design placed on the pic...will get the checkbook out quickly, in order to get a finished version!
Werks fer me!
[ February 04, 2004, 04:37 PM: Message edited by: Si Allen ]
-------------------- Si Allen #562 La Mirada, CA. USA
(714) 521-4810
si.allen on Skype
siallen@dslextreme.com
"SignPainters do It with Longer Strokes!"
Never mess with your profile while in a drunken stupor!!!
Brushasaurus on Chat Posts: 8827 | From: La Mirada, CA, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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The only "free sketch" I do is while I'm talking with the client and grab a pencil, do a rough outline of the sign shape, draw a 2 second outline or blob representing their logo/artwork and scribble the wording on it. This is to verify that we're on the same page with our discussions to this point. The "sketch" goes in with MY notes on the meeting. Then it is time for PAID layout/design time. I don't give them copies of the "sketch" and even if I did, god love anyone who tries to make sense of it.
-------------------- Chris Welker Wildfire Signs Indiana, Pa Posts: 4254 | From: Indiana, PA | Registered: Mar 2001
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