posted
I dropped out after 2 quarters at the Art Institute of Pittsburgh. Why? #1: It didn't matter if you had any God-given talent. If you had $$ to pay for the classes & supplies, the teachers would pass you throught with a D. (I did get straight A's) #2: I didn't want to learn about computers! (they were just being introduced) #3: It made something that I had enjoyed doing for a lifetime seem like a chore. What did I learn @ AIP? I had a really cool old layout artist as a teacher. Back in the day she did ads for Gimbels and Horne's, etc. She actually smoked in class! We had to hand-render boring typestyles like Stymie and Helvetica. I learned that Os,Qs,Ss, and any roundish letter or numeral is slightly bigger than a straight letter. Wow...THAT was really worth $2,000! I have learned more from a $29 Mike Stevens book than I ever did at Art School. That said, I really wish I would have gone to college like I wanted to. A purple haired pierced AIP dropout circa 1980. And yes, the barber shop logo ain't pretty. But I have seen worse!
-------------------- That is like a Mr. Potato Head with all the pieces in the wrong place. -Russ McMullin Posts: 8834 | From: Butler, PA, USA | Registered: Jan 2001
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I'm sure everyone has heard the term "starving artist" That applies to the majority of artists because they spend all their time on the work itself, but never learn the concept of how to sell or market it. Is that you? Do you drive the customer away simply because you don't like the design, and he/she should not like it either?
How does your Logo Look?
I have a problem with ....If That is the why they want it! then thats what they get!
I like doing projects that will repeat the work!!!!!! Not kill the....Business because of (POOR IMAGE)
I would pass on it if the customer is not open to new views of it!
[ January 07, 2004, 06:30 PM: Message edited by: Stephen Deveau ]
-------------------- Stephen Deveau RavenGraphics Insinx Digital Displays
Letting Your Imagination Run Wild! Posts: 4327 | From: Lower Sackville, Nova Scotia, Canada | Registered: Jan 2000
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posted
Back to Cam's question of what maybe to do with something like this.
The customer may not allow ANY tweaking of the logo, but if he did: My first thought was the problem with the word "the" sticking up the way it does. Granted, since it and the words "contemporary barber" are upper and lower case, the negative space between them and the first line of copy would still be irregular, but oh well. How would a field surgeon handle a mangled patient? The best way he/she could. Anyway, even if the "the" were lowered, then there's that "scratchy line thing" underneath, that locks in a whole lotta bad negative space. Soooo, how about moving the scrathy thing up between the two lines of copy, it might distract from the irregular negative space there. Then do the "Toupe barber pole thingy" in a much lower contrast color or value. Since my resident picture isn't sent in yet, right about now you're probably imagining that I look like the "doctor" in the Cannonball run movie, with this talk of field surgeons, and all. Hey! If you think I look that great, just vwait 'till I vwork on your company logo. Heh heh heh.
-------------------- James Donahue Donahue Sign Arts 1851 E. Union Valley Rd. Seymour TN. (865) 577-3365 brushman@nxs.net
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what's for lunch, Benjamin Franklin Posts: 2057 | From: 1033 W. Union Valley Rd. | Registered: Feb 2003
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posted
Ok, art school designers shouldn't be slammed in my opinion. It's the colleges that take advantage of some of the marginal designer's pipe dreams of making it big in the art world that is the real problem. The design colleges are in the business of making money, just like everyone's sign business here. An education? Sure, but after you shell out. Some are quite phenominal, others aren't. As much ado as they make about the education you'll receive, they aren't going to give it away. Like everything, their main focus is money.
I have a degree from Kendall School of Design in Grand Rapids. They now are affiliated with Ferris State University. I learned a lot, but mostly it was a focused setting in which you could practice honing your God given talent.
Two things are key: The teacher AND the student. Kendall made you bring in a portfollio for a review before they would accept you. This sounds impressive, but the fact is...they let everyone in. They made a big show of it, but there were plenty of students who were living in fantasy land thinking they had a shot in the art world when in fact they should have been bolting bumpers onto cars at GM. The teachers should have sat these students down and told them flat out they sucked instead of passing along fake compliments and encouraging them into spending gobs of money for four years.
So, the student has to have at least a couple ounces of talent to begin with.
Now the teachers: Some really sucked. I could out illustrate them walking in my first day to class. Then there were a couple that were outstanding and a major positive influence.
I always looked at it this way: I could tell crap when I heard it and when I saw it. The teachers that were there because they couldn't cut it in the art world were easily identified, and I did what I had to get the grade in their class, but didn't fall for anything they said unless I felt it was legitimate. You can't be naive going in.
I once got into a verbal argument in a full class with an art history teacher. She was showing slides of some "artist"....I think he was Russian, name might have been Kandinsky. Anyway, this artist was the greatest in her opinion because he came up with the idea of painting a white canvass completely white. No image, no colors...just plain white. She went on and on about the earthshaking concept.
I was sitting in the back of the room, and started laughing and making cracks. She stopped the class and asked if I had something I wanted to add. I said, "Yeah, that's not art." Boy was she ****ed. She tried to out argue me with her Masters in art history...but I stood my ground. I told her I didn't care what she said, I didn't think painting white paint on a white canvass was art and I thought it was completely stupid.
So, my point is a talented individual with a discriminating mind can get a certain amount of tangible benefits from art school. And the experience of being given projects with deadlines is worthwhile too. And being forced to maintain a schedule is good training for the work world also. And the talented friends I made who inpsired, influenced, and helped hone me were very valuable.
Kendall was a very small and very expensive private design school specializing in Illustration, Commercial art, and furniture design.
But, one friend who got kicked out of Kendall, was one of the most talented illustrators I've met. He could paint anybody and anything perfectly. The day he walked out of Kendall with his art supplies under his arm was the day he started working for himself as a free lance illustrator...and has been, successfully ever since.
So it goes both ways....school is good, experience is good. Both, hand in hand can make you really good. Some people don't need a lick of school...they're naturally great.
Holy crap this is long. School is great, and I recommend it to everyone. You're gonna learn something....but you can't hang on every word of the professor. Pick and choose.
Edit: Oh I forgot, you can't underestimate the value of name dropping. I got my first job because my boss knew of Kendall's reputation as a great art school. I was in like flint with their name on my resume.
posted
My central complaint is not with art school graduates or dropouts; it's with dealing with crap designs that that someone used their degree to push onto a customer.
When a customer designs some wad of spelkus on a computer, they generally will at least have a clue that somebody might do something better. But an incompetent "professional designer", armed with the ego they bought at art school, can't seem to accept any form of criticism of their work. Like architects, they know it all whether it makes sense or not, look, it says so, right there on that expensive diploma. No amount of practical, real world experience matters; the idea that what looks good on paper may not work on a sign is incomprehensible to them.
That doesn't say that every trained designer or architect is a schmuck, far from it. I've worked with some terrific designers who are doing top-notch work. Like in every other field, the best are bright enough to know they don't know everything; they can admit that someone who works on a different scale, in a different medium, with different viewing conditions, might have some constructive criticism about a design. They aren't the problem. The problem is with those of marginal competence who's insecurities are threatened by criticism, who use a degree as an excuse to push crap on people and then bristle at criticism like it's a personal affront to have anything questioned. But then I don't quite know why I need to explain this. Look at the design that was posted at the top of this thread. It speaks for itself.
-------------------- "A wise man concerns himself with the truth, not with what people believe." - Aristotle
Cam Bortz Finest Kind Signs Pondside Iron works 256 S. Broad St. Pawcatuck, Ct. 06379 "Award winning Signs since 1988" Posts: 3051 | From: Pawcatuck,Connecticut USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
I was an art major in college for a while. It rocked! Where else can you draw real live neked chix for a couple hours a day, meet lots of pretty girls & impress them with your work?
I wish I could've finished, as far as I'm concerned, the whole experince was well worth the price. I went to a smaller school though.
I do have to say that I've learned more on my own though... but hey I was 20 years old! How much was I possibly going to learn anyway. All I cared about was girls & partying.
-------------------- Glenn S. Harris
....back in the sign trade full time. Posts: 293 | From: Baton Rouge, LA, USA | Registered: Jul 2001
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posted
You shouldn't have to explain Cam, I actully did understand what you were getting at-to many semi-schooled designers push a lot more crap design than actual talented and "real schooled" designers. I work for a very talented group of designers, occasionaly we do a crap peice that anyone here could do way better. As a high end graphic designer, I appreciate the fact that you'all can be honest and design saavy enough to know a bad logo-thats why I keep coming here-I know I will learn something here. I worked at a few sign shops, and I know how designrs can be, now that I am one, I occasionally turn into a "design weenie", the stereotype is well deserved, I know way too many times that a "designed" peice by a "graphic designer" is either impossiible to build or they never take into consideration the side or back of the sign, the best way I use to counter bad design is by offering suggestions to the client, or offering my services to a "unschooled" or "signage challenged" designers. They in turn usually appreciate the help, and help und0 the stereotype that signguys are just sub-par graphic production jerks.
-------------------- Rick Chavez Hemet, CA Posts: 1540 | From: Hemet,CA U.S.A. | Registered: Jun 2001
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posted
I gotta get in on this one...As a sign shop owner who just went shopping for an additional artist, I think I can speak with some authority. I wholeheartedly agree with Todd. Kendall is a wonderful school. My lead designer is a graduate from there. My other is from Finlandia in upper Michigan.
But, ALOT of these spoiled, no talent rich kids whose daddy's paying their way seem to be of the impression that they will become an artist with a few classes. ARTISTS ARE BORN, NOT MADE. You are an artist from the womb. Then, to top it all off, they are lied to by their financial councilors that they will make $75 grand their first year in some high powered marketing firm. GET A LIFE.
People do art because they love it first. Then, many are capable of making a decent living BECAUSE THEY HAVE EXCEPTIONAL TALENT, not because it says BFA behind their name. That opening logo is a prime example of which I rant. I have been lucky. I used to feel college was unnecessary, but I feel a talented artist can be enhanced with additional training....isn't that why we have meets?
(edited for spelling)
[ January 08, 2004, 04:25 PM: Message edited by: Rick Beisiegel ]
""Good judgment comes from experience; and a lot of that comes from bad judgment" - Will Rogers Posts: 3512 | From: Beautiful Newaygo, Michigan | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
Wow, you guys are making me really appricate my Major Art teachers at OSU. I thought they were normal but I see it could of been bad. I especially liked the one who did not teach how to paint like a photo but with imagination. And the imagination counted more then those whom I thought were good because they could make it look so real.
quote: "Imagination is more important that knowledge." -Albert Einstien
-------------------- Debbie Posts: 674 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2001
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posted
Having gone to school doesn't make one a bad designer. But having spent years and years at even the best school doesn't necessarily make one a brilliant designer either... and that applies to most any profession.
In the end its about talent, experience and a burning passion to do good work.
Janis often calls me a prima donna but I am extremely picky about the work I take on. These days I even insist on designing absolutely everything that I build. I would do the same if someone came to me with a logo like this. If the customer was intent on staying with his design I would send them on up the road.
I will occasionally design something that is passed on to someone else to build. Perhaps we'll see it pictured here someday in a post similar to this. But then again I don't wear the title of 'graphic designer' or any other title for that matter as I'm not 'qualified' in any job I do.
-dan
[ January 08, 2004, 04:58 PM: Message edited by: Dan Sawatzky ]
-------------------- Dan Sawatzky Imagination Corporation Yarrow, British Columbia dan@imaginationcorporation.com http://www.imaginationcorporation.com
Being a grampa is one of the the most wonderful things in the world!!! Posts: 8778 | From: Yarrow, B.C. Canada | Registered: Nov 1998
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I'd remind myself that some people , regardless of their claims of art abilities, often produce designs for friends and family. That personal perspective is hard to overcome at times and why waste the time trying. Sometimes you actually get one that is appealing and a challenge to reproduce...unlike this one. Sadly, those are few and far between.
Nature of the beast.
Cam, I think you handled the whole thing a best as possible given the circumstances following the rule "The customer is always right." They have commited themselves to the artwork in other mediums and although an improvement is possible, they don't necessarily feel it is warranted. Not every job that comes in the door is going to make the cover of "Signs of the Times", and although it pains some of us to do this work, it does pay the bills.
Personally, I agree that sign is not going to be a "portfolio" piece, and I certainly wouldn't take a minute to sign a corner as the person wwho produced it, but the end result is that the customer met your price, was happy with the sign and their check cleared at the bank.
As far as all the school stuff mentioned in this post, I'm the graduate of a vocational high school commercial art course. Somewhere around here I have a little card that says I'm "certified" as one. Not sure if it really matters that much 25 years later. Gone are the days of rubber cement, Letraset and the paste up techniques I was taught back then and now I have a daughter at BC in art courses, learning different techniques and styles.
The joke around here is "She gets the sheepskin, but I've got the time in."
Most of my education has been the "School of Hard Knocks" and to me it has been invaluable. Her's will be formal and equally valuable as well.
It's not only what we learn, how or where we got the education, but how we apply it. That's what defines "style" in this biz.
My two bits.... Rapid
-------------------- Ray Rheaume Rapidfire Design 543 Brushwood Road North Haverhill, NH 03774 rapidfiredesign@hotmail.com 603-787-6803
I like my paint shaken, not stirred. Posts: 5648 | From: North Haverhill, New Hampshire | Registered: Apr 2003
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But then again I don't wear the title of 'graphic designer' or any other title for that matter as I'm not 'qualified' in any job I do. 
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