posted
A shop not too far from mine has been doing the fleet graphics for a police department for several years. Recently, they ran into an issue where the reflective vinyl (not Avery) was literally falling off after a couple weeks.
What convinced him the problem was the clearcoat was that after the client took delivery, one of the vehicles was in an accident the next day. The vehicle was taken to the local bodyshop and repaired using the normal paints and clearcoats the bodyshop had always used. What was noticed was that the graphics on the repaired panel were fine but the graphics on the rest of the vehicle were falling off.
Long story short, Chrysler took responsibility and paid to have the graphics redone after the vehicles were repainted without the self-sealing clearcoat.
According to my 3M dealer, there has been an uptick in warranty claims. Many of them involved the self-sealing clearcoat. In March 2010 and again in October 2010, 3M released an update to their installation guide sheets.
posted
I didn't either but that is what they sent me.
The only change I can see is in the cleaning procedure and the outgas test. According to the 3M rep, the self-sealing clearcoat will fail the outgas test as it never stops outgassing.
posted
Bogusity at first glance or maybe God's way of telling them not to use vinyl. Either way I have run into these problems over the years from other engineered clearcoats to paint additives and could actually remedy the problem with the right solvent and technique for preparation. All paints today are still able to be repaired and striped as well as vinyl applied. The outgassing has been cut down dramatically by waterborne products and isocyanites. Even if they used that exact paint your friend's solvents used for prep isn't working so its next time for them to give it the knuckle test after they prep before they hurt themselves again.
And I have both heard and seen first hand how representatives of 3M react and other companies react when these Reps are just paid to answer without having any experience whatsoever in the paint world. His answer is bogus in regards to outgassing in this day where a low VOC is demanded by authorities and regulated by OSHA.
posted
I'm personally sick and tired of hearing of this "outgassing" Everything seems to be outassing in the world since this term hit the streets.
And not to bash you I would need to see proof that this situation happened. I personally don't believe a corporation like chrysler would fix their "self sealing" clearcoat because some graphics fell off, as we all know when we have a problems with products it always OUR fault.
Lets look a this situation differently (hopefully Im understanding correctly
1. sign dude adds decals to car 2. car is in wreck 3. repaired side of car holds decal 4. oem side is jacked up decal falls off 5. chrysler notes this and fixes all?
I dont believe it until I see it and also Im not pulling up anything about a self sealing clearcoat. Closest I got is self healing for toyota
-------------------- You ever notice how easily accessible people are when they are requiring your services but once they get invoice you can't reach them anymore
posted
I'm going to side with Joey on this one. If this was truly the case, vinyl would be falling off cars all over the country. It isn't, so this is an isolated incident....they happen. I've heard numerous stories over the years about this new paint or that new paint causing problems but they were always isolated incidences.
-------------------- George Perkins Millington,TN. goatwell@bigriver.net
"I started out with nothing and still have most of it left"
posted
Bruce, as I understand it Chrysler didn't just jump in and voluntarily fix everything. I'm told that the Chrylser dealership was told that unless they address the issue they would not be buying any more Chrysler vehicles for their fleet. From there, the dealership brought Chrysler into it.
For myself, its been a long time since I've lettered any Chrysler or Toyotas. Its been either Ford or Chevy in our area.
*****
As to Bruce's point about outgassing, I personally have been having a problem with striping & lettering firetrucks ever since the manufacturer switched to Sikken's waterborne paint.
The client and his clients (fire chiefs and captains) will stick their noses right up to the vehicle looking for defects. Application has to be perfect. I know that any bubbles will cook out on their own but that isn't acceptable in this situation.
When the vehicles were painted with the urethanes, I've put down reflective lettering as smooth as glass without any problems. However since the manufacturer switched to Sikkens waterborne paints, after putting down the reflective graphics perfectly smooth, I go back the next day only find bubbles in it.
I did the mylar test as recommended in the 3M bulletin. The next day there were bubbles all in it. So according to 3M, the paint is still outgassing. According to the truck manufacturer, the paint job was 5 weeks old. In keeping notes so as to track down the problem, the temperature that day was 85f with 65% humidity. Graphics application is being done in a typical garage type setting with open overhead doors. Working in a controlled environment isn't possible.
In talking to the firetruck manufacturer, they said that the paint reaches full cure in about 4 days and there shouldn't be any outgassing (in this case evaporation) issues.
My understanding is that waterborne paints have much longer curing times as compared to the two-part urethanes (chemical vs. evaporative) I've tried to find some definitive answers to just how long waterborne paints take to reach full cure and stop outgassing. I'm getting everything from 3-4 days to 90 days. Going to PPG's and Sikken's site haven't been helpful. Any help with that is greatly appreciated.
[ October 23, 2011, 12:28 PM: Message edited by: Glenn Taylor ]
posted
I'm sure George and I and some others who have been decorating vehicles throughout the years do not use the same prep solvents for every vehicle just so we can then blame the paint for no adhesion. I know you and I have our differences but when it comes to paint on vehicles, my expertise makes it so no problems arise as I have a ****load of experience. If I mentioned Acetone, most would cringe at its thought but in fact Acetone is one of the solvents which can actually remove the problems of non adhesion from any paint. Its worked in PolyCracker during the polyglycoat years and is still sold today. Of course you'll have to have some knowledge in prepping vehicles in order to use this otherwise it can turn into a quagmire if the knowledge isn't there. If fleet paints were all like this particular one as one must believe than all fleet paints would be using the same formulas yet not all of us would be using the same prep solvents..
-------------------- HotLines Joey Madden - pinstriping since 1952 'Perfection, its what I look for and what I live for'
posted
I've run across many "outgassing" problems over the years. Almost every one can be traced back to the painter not following proper procedures. If a paint system is hurried in any way, that is not enough flash time is allowed between coats, too heavy a coat applied, etc. the solvents, whatever they may be, get buried and "outgassing" will often take forever. Like I said before, if it were truly a particular brand of paint, the problems would be nationwide and not limited to one car or one shop. Example, a few years back I was running into a problem using Finesse tape at one body shop I worked for. Every time I did a silver car there, the Finesse would pull off the clear coat. The manager was getting ****ed at me. I told him the problem NEVER happened anywhere but at his shop and he needed to look into how his painter was operating. He shot back with "he's the best I've ever had, he turns out twice the work of anybody else." Red flag flying here! I asked him if he wouldn't read the paint manufacturers directions and watch to see how closely his painter was following those directions. Long story short, the painter was subsequently fired after they had a run of comebacks on his work and I never had another problem of clear coat pulling up with his replacement.
-------------------- George Perkins Millington,TN. goatwell@bigriver.net
"I started out with nothing and still have most of it left"
posted
when did they switch to waterborne for fire turcks? They have been using waterborne paint on "normal" vehicles for several years now
-------------------- You ever notice how easily accessible people are when they are requiring your services but once they get invoice you can't reach them anymore
Bruce, according to my client who spoke with the manufacturer they switched earlier this summer. The problems began with the very first vehicle they sent that was painted with the waterborne paint.
My solution for the now is to switch to 3M-680CR. It cost extra and the client is willing to pay for it, but I still want to track down what is causing the bubble issue since I can't do everything with a comply feature. The chevrons are being done in Reflexite V92 and much of the lettering is being done in either Leo's Smartgold or Signgold. (Yes, I do offer traditional gold leaf)
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