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The time has arrived that I must fulfill my promise to the good people of Algoma...to clear coat the precious mural work so many of you have given of yourselves in making a dream come true. We're going with either the 1-shot 4005 UV Clear, or the Clearshield Liquid Laminate Solvent Base. Rolling it on, I would imagine. Any thoughts out there before we commit to one or the other? I'd appreciate any words of advice, or caution. The last thing I want to do is screw this up. you guys and gals are swell.
-------------------- David C. Petri Flying Peach Custom Paint Green Bay, WI 54302 cell 920-246-7821 Posts: 79 | From: Green Bay, WI | Registered: Jun 2006
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Does Dale's project need to be cleared, Dave? As for the other murals (the 1Shot ones) I've heard more positive feed-back about the Clearshield product.
-------------------- Nancie W. Phillips White Dove Painting Studio 74 Dacula Road, Dacula, GA 30019 678-887-3339
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Give Jay Allen, a call at "Shaw Craft" signs in Mcchesney park, IL
I don't have the number but you probably find it on the net.
Jack
-------------------- Jack Wills Studio Design Works 1465 E.Hidalgo Circle Nye Beach / Newport, OR Posts: 2914 | From: Rocklin, CA. USA | Registered: Dec 1998
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Don't call unless you want me to talk your ear off, Dave. You know I how much I can talk.
Jack and lots of others here bragged up the ClearStar product 'ClearShield UV Waterbased clear' - and I will say, it is nice stuff. Flat, satin or gloss - your choice - all done here with a roller (1/4" fine nap - mohair type) and it worked GREAT!!
I haven't seen the mural since it was dedicated - but the satin clear gave it a nice old satin/matte finish 'antique postcard' look that hid all the differing gloss levels.
We painted the mural on black Dibond and had straight OneShot, OneShot with Smith's Cream and the factory finish of the black Dibond. Once we applied the ClearStar, it was all the same level of gloss. I'd stay away from the flat if it were me. But other than that, great stuff.
So have they elected you Mayor yet, Peach? We sure had a nice time in that town. Thanks again for the great memories.
Figure about 45 minutes per mural for one guy to clear - probably a little longer on the brick murals. Maybe you use a brush and roller in combo on those?
[ August 31, 2007, 10:33 AM: Message edited by: Jay Allen ]
-------------------- Jay Allen ShawCraft Sign Co. Machesney Park, IL jallen222@aol.com http://www.shawcraft.com/
"The object of the superior man is truth." -Confucius Posts: 1285 | From: Machesney Park, IL, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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We used the One Shot anti-grafitti clear on the Brush Bash 2 murals and it went very well. I was a nervous wreck putting it on hoping that nothing bad would happen as well. It seemed to go pretty far and laid down nicely, however it was a bit tough to see "where you've been" as far as rolling it on... you need to keep track or do it in grids so to speak so you don't miss any spots. It took a good day and a half to dry, which surprised me, but looked good. We used the matte finish and it had more gloss than I would have suspected, so if you're looking for no-gloss at all, certainly don't use the gloss version.
-------------------- Kurt Gaber Chippewa Falls, WI Thank You Letterheads for being a part of both Brush Bashes in '02 & '06!
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Here's what we'll do...One Shot Anti-Grafitti for Meyers' Commemorative Mural, Diazs' Ahnapee and Western Mural and Butlers' Hennemanns' Mural, in the Matte finish. Clearstar Satin Water-based for Bennetts'& Logans'Ahnapee Brewery Mural, Knaaks' Fishing & Shipping Mural and Clarks' Algoma Net Mural, One Shot UV Clear for Bortzs'Kohlbeck Mural and Gietls'Orange Crush Mural,finishing off evenly with Clearstar Solvent-based Laminator plus(or whatever)for Goretskis' Sportfishing Mural and Mays'Kodan Feed Mill Murals. There. King Solomon will have a field day with this and I will be able to experiment and keep an eye on the conditions with fairly equal terms. Thank You all for your generous input, by the time I get through sniffing and rolling all this stuff you can set me up in the "Rubber Room" on the corner of "Fifth & Mad" with a box of "Crayola" crayons and a "Little Mermaid" coloring book and I should be good, then.
Thanks for your help! Now it's my turn!
-------------------- David C. Petri Flying Peach Custom Paint Green Bay, WI 54302 cell 920-246-7821 Posts: 79 | From: Green Bay, WI | Registered: Jun 2006
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Great idea, Peach. Not sure of which murals face which direction - but perhaps experiment by using two murals facing the same direction (and done with same methods/paints) and using two different clearcoats. That way two can be judged 'side-by-side' (even if on different streets) since the wall direction really impacts the mural and clear.
Maybe that's what your plan is, and if so, you've already thought this out before me!! But that'd be a dandy bit of 'real-time' product performance we could all benefit from. I'll say it first . . . thanks, Peach.
[ September 03, 2007, 02:20 PM: Message edited by: Jay Allen ]
-------------------- Jay Allen ShawCraft Sign Co. Machesney Park, IL jallen222@aol.com http://www.shawcraft.com/
"The object of the superior man is truth." -Confucius Posts: 1285 | From: Machesney Park, IL, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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I'll second Jay's thanks, Dave. Coating these murals is something we are all grappling with and it will be great to have some real live testing done.
Here in Minneapolis where graffitti has become quite a problem we are getting ready to try out a company called Seal America that claims to be the "Best sealers on Planet Earth " using newly developed Nanotechnology. (Wasn't that something from Mork nad Mindy.) They have guaranteed me it will work over 1shot so we shall see and I'll keep you all posted.
-------------------- Carole Bersin Carole Bersin Painting 3527 24th Av S, Minneapolis, Mn 55406 cbersin@visi.com Posts: 211 | From: Minneapolis, Mn USA | Registered: May 2005
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Kurt was your anti-grafitti clear an orange color after you mixed it? Mine was and I haven't used it -- thinking there might be something wrong with the batch, but then I thought, "well, maybe it's like gold size which is brownish, but brushes out clear." It's on my list to contact 1 Shot.
The clear question over these murals is one that we really need help on. Dave's solution may be a good one (a testing ground). I kind of hate making a town a guinea pig for a solution to a problem that we as professional should have an grip on.
I tried a similar product to the Clear Shield which went less than 10 years and wound up ultimately looking worse than if I had just not cleared the job. It checked and hazed pretty bad with age. I loss a customer over it, I think.
I'm wondering about waiting 6 mos. or so after a complete cure of the enamel and clearing with 2 part automotive clear which would need to be brushed over brick, since I think it would cob-web and be difficult to roll over a rough surface. I've had success rolling them on signs laying flat. I found that adding a retarder to the clear helps with the bubbles. It would be a huge challenge on brick, though, and would need to gridded, sectioned or whatever like Kurt said to see where you've been.
I have even thought about using a Wagner power painter and spraying over brick murals with automotive 2 part clears using a shield for the edges or brushing a foot or so from the edge and spraying the rest. This would best be done without any cars or traffic around, which for a town like Algoma, would mean before the stores opened or maybe even on a Sunday.
Maybe Carole's contact will be the best solution. I just don't know. We just finished a large Rt.66 mural on brick with acrylic latex. We're not clearing it, but double coated all colors and triple coated the red. It faces south.
But for walldog meets where you might have to paint right up to rainy weather, it is most logical to paint with alkyd enamels for fear of the darn thing washing away from a thunderstorm. I've had it happen, and with all the rain we've had lately, it took forever to paint this last mural with waterbased paints. We had very few days were we didn't have a chance for severe thunderstorms. Those rascals can hit within minutes and act just like a high pressure washer.
[ September 04, 2007, 06:54 PM: Message edited by: Bill Diaz ]
-------------------- Bill Diaz Diaz Sign Art Pontiac IL www.diazsignart.com Posts: 2107 | From: Pontiac, IL | Registered: Dec 2001
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Yes, Jay, that's exactly what I was thinking...except I didn't think of it until after I posted, so you get credit for it. You are quite the mind reader... I knew there was more to you than meets the eye! Thanks, buddy. Actually, I didn't know what I was thinking at the time, it just sounded kinda cool! So I wrote it. The products' label will be recorded with each mural and dated for accurate measurement. Do we need to clean the surface with alcohol first? I think it has to be a city-wide experiment,(unbeknownst to them, of course)to put the supplier and manufacturer to the test.I for one love the idea of a "Guinea Pig Roast"(Thanks Bill), because when you are trying out new things, you want to have faith that they are going to work well for the amount of money that was invested, provided that you did everything right to begin with. It would be a drag to go "whole Hog" into something filled with over confidence just to discover that by some unexplained "Freak of Nature" or (heaven forbid) a mistake-dashed all dreams of efficiency and profit. I witnessed this first hand so many times that I just giggle at it, because it still happens!(Hey! sometimes you forget a step or two!)distractions... I know you guys are going to cringe when I confess the fact that Jag has been using "Frog Juice" for almost ten years now, and even though it may not be an ideal solution for everything, I think it has some good qualities to it.(Hey, Butch!)Does anyone want that stuff on their mural? we have it in stock, I'll bet. You can only get it through Far from Normal. I know!! we'll put it on Clarks' south face Algoma Net Co. and give ol' Butch a run for his SeaDoo. Wait, I think I hear him chuckling in front of the First National. This is going to be exciting! I'll start the order tomorrow. Thanks everyone! Hey, Bill, you and Jane have a "wicked" good time in "New Hampsha".
-------------------- David C. Petri Flying Peach Custom Paint Green Bay, WI 54302 cell 920-246-7821 Posts: 79 | From: Green Bay, WI | Registered: Jun 2006
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Logic and common sense, Peach. Aside from a love of signs - and a lot of murals painted together in the last 10 years or so - we apparently have one more thing in common!!
Algoma is lucky to have you there.
Maybe we need to explain before we go into Walldog towns that we are still experimenting with paints and clears? None of the Belvidere murals were cleared - which is making it VERY easy to repaint. But with a clear over them I am afraid we'd need to explore another means.
When we first began the Belvidere mural project all I heard from people we sought support from is "GRAFFITI - CLEAR COAT - GRAFFITI - CLEAR COAT". Valid concerns - but at the time I had no answer. I'd seen acrylic clearcoating get moisture behind the clear and 'fog' the paint before - so I said 'we cannot repaint if we clear'. That eased their minds - but that WAS a valid answer 10 years ago. Now I think clears are a real possibility since they have (obviously) advanced in the technology.
Neither graffiti or a clearcoat were a factor in Belvidere - and we just repainted the Guzman's mural (Mark Adamany repainted over the old one) over that icky, old DEKA paint that was used. He 3 and 4-coated the thing and it looks terrific now. But there was no clear so repainting WAS a real option. And that's what these towns want to keep - the SAME designs they got when we left their towns. So how will that be addressed with a clear over them?
So now what will you do, Peach?
-------------------- Jay Allen ShawCraft Sign Co. Machesney Park, IL jallen222@aol.com http://www.shawcraft.com/
"The object of the superior man is truth." -Confucius Posts: 1285 | From: Machesney Park, IL, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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The superiority of truth is gaining here, Jay. I knew that before I ordered my first installment this AM, I better swing into "Letterville" for some "wake up". Now I need to go to the manufacturer and get them to commit to some kind of UV sealer that is "paintable" after a certain number of years. The matte finish should accomplish this easier than a gloss, but again, speculation is a cheap date with a questionable background. The difference between a lab tech and a representative is that one promises you the "moon" and the other looks both ways and tells you there isn't any "moon". In hindsight, I regret using the term "clear-coating" as a solution to preserving something that really has more value in the process than the final product, and that is the attempt to bring many people together for a common good. Let them fade naturally is my vote as well, but I promised them protection as they are very proud of them. It's really part how I sold them on the very idea. I will contact One-shot and Clearstar,via Midwest Sign & Screen Supply, as promised. Thanks, Jay and everyone who assisted this visitor. It's a lot of fun. I guess I should cough up some rent and become a resident,now.
-------------------- David C. Petri Flying Peach Custom Paint Green Bay, WI 54302 cell 920-246-7821 Posts: 79 | From: Green Bay, WI | Registered: Jun 2006
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Sun exposure (as in the direction the walls face) ought to be a factor in the choice of clears, I would think. My mural (Kohlbeck's)faces almost due north and doesn't get much sun at all; Clark's mural, on the opposite side of the building, is baked all day, as is Adam May's, and the rest are all pretty much east or west exposure. My own experience is that western exposure fades much faster than eastern, so the clears have to be tougher accordingly.
-------------------- "A wise man concerns himself with the truth, not with what people believe." - Aristotle
Cam Bortz Finest Kind Signs Pondside Iron works 256 S. Broad St. Pawcatuck, Ct. 06379 "Award winning Signs since 1988" Posts: 3051 | From: Pawcatuck,Connecticut USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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I will even this out by mentioning that I spoke to people at Clearstar and Spraylat,(which has produced One-Shot for the past 7 years). I spoke with the receptionist at Clearstar and although our conversation was very pleasant, she was biased against One-Shot and preferred her employers' product, but couldn't explain why. She sold me a sample quart of water-based and a sample aerosol can of the solvent based, then called me back and said that the tech told her to tell me to wait several hours before applying it to whatever I was applying it to. I don't particularly like the water-based(very short open time to apply-Water-based Frog Juice is the same way) even though both have a more acceptable odor. Then I talked to Mark at Spraylat and he gave me the most thorough explanation from acrylics, alkyds, 2-stage urethanes(ideal solution,but very dangerous) and their chemical make-ups, do's and don'ts as far as safe application timing and curing(movement process) of the surface to be cleared,(which may not be completed even after 6 months!) and the importance of humidity and temperature at the time of application, cause and effect,(checking, pinholes, lifting, hazing) consequences of misuse, and he provided all this to me in a willing and un-biased manner which I appreciated. So now I will TEST(as recommended) the One-Shot clear-coating products for all of the solvent-based murals and the Clearstar Water-based for the only latex mural, because you should NEVER put Solvent-based clear over latex. It seems to be more than you want to think about when doing simple jobs, but when I think about all the costly mistakes due to poor planning, tight schedules, or just plain old impatience...man, product failure is usually a no/charge, because if we are professionals, we should know better."It's a poor workman what blames his tools". Thank you for allowing me this forum. It made me even more conscientious than I was before.
-------------------- David C. Petri Flying Peach Custom Paint Green Bay, WI 54302 cell 920-246-7821 Posts: 79 | From: Green Bay, WI | Registered: Jun 2006
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I didn't have any orange tint to the clear, it appeared to be just fine. We didn't receive any "funding" for the clear until late fall in '06 for the Brush Bash murals, and after a test area of only about 1 sq. ft. that took 2 days to dry, I was nervous about application, so it didn't happen until the following year, so all of the oil-painted murals had a good 9 to 10 months of curing.
I also wondered about any future touch up or re-paint issues having used the UV / Anti-graffiti clear? But at nearly 110.00 per gallon, this stuff better last a good long time without worry of touch up!
I just received word from our main street director this week that we were granted some more money for clear (and lift rental cost) to apply some more clear to more of the remaining murals. I hope I am doing the right thing by applying this expensive coating to preserve the handy-work of all of the Bash painters.
I think the most valuable input regarding the application of these clear products comes from the end user... the painters. Lab tested and simulated weathering results don't mean jack. The more real world results and feedback coming from anyone who has used the product is valuable. Anyone reading this who has had experience using various clears, please feel free to chime in either here or e-mail me directly so you don't have to worry about any negative feedback on the public forum!
signguy@gabersigns.com
-------------------- Kurt Gaber Chippewa Falls, WI Thank You Letterheads for being a part of both Brush Bashes in '02 & '06!
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I just finished my 108th historical mural. Some of them were painted in places where I simply wouldn't want to be without an armed guard by my side. He in fact was there (with his gun) when I laid them out the first night.
I recommend to all my clients that the murals I do NOT be clear coated... ever. I only use quality acrylic house paints to do my murals. In almost 25 years of painting they have held up well. In fact yesterday I took a good look at the very first one I did and it is holding up well. The reds are starting to fade a little but the rest is OK. To my knowlege I have never had a mural damaged by graffitti and I'm not worried about it.
A few of the murals I did through the years were clear coated against my advice. These failed and the paint started flaking off. Acrylic paints breathe, a critical function for cement, brick or block walls. Sealers do not.
In the event of a necessary touchup or repair to the mural it is possible if the mural has NOT been clear coated. With the clear coat it is much more difficult and sometimes not possible.
Undoubtably if you talk to ten mural painters you will get ten differring opinions. I respect that. I offer mine based on my experience.
-grampa dan
-------------------- Dan Sawatzky Imagination Corporation Yarrow, British Columbia dan@imaginationcorporation.com http://www.imaginationcorporation.com
Being a grampa is one of the the most wonderful things in the world!!! Posts: 8738 | From: Yarrow, B.C. Canada | Registered: Nov 1998
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Dave...there are still quite a few of us who all lean toward 1-shot and oil-based, because it works well and usually covers in one coat. It's what some of us are used to.
I happened to have painted a few of the "ghost signs" that we see every once in a while, and the reason they lasted so long, was that they where painted with pigments and oil...a very slow drying combo that soaked into the brick. We used to mix our own paint, and there were never any dryers used.
There were never any clearcoats used, because it would have been unthinkable to put a varnish over a wall painting.
Now that acrylics have gotten so good...I don't know what to do about the necessity to double coat with that medium...it sure seems like a PITA, especially with blended areas.
I have a good friend who paints murals using 1-shot, and she has clearcoated with the water-based aqua-coat product with the UV inhibitor. I know that over-coating oil-base paint with a water-based product, was a no-no for most of us "old-timers", but chemistry has changed, I guess, and the facts are, the the water-based seems to be holding up well over the oil.
The worse damage I have seen, was a few cracks that developed, and they may have been caused by the latex that was used by others (prior the the mural painting) UNDER the one shot, and it may not have been been dry enough... a second coat of clear seemed to solve the problem, but that was 4-5 years later.
btw...water-based clears do not appear to yellow, like the oil-based does. That fact alone makes me want to lean toward them, because there is no color change.
-------------------- Jeff Ogden 8727 NE 68 Terr. Gainesville FL, 32609 Posts: 2138 | From: 8827 NE 68 Terr Gainesville Fl 32609 | Registered: Aug 2002
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