I've been doing a bunch of squad cars the last few days here, and having a heck of a time with getting bubbles under the reflective. It seems no matter how I lay it down, or how hard I squeegee (with a new, un-nicked blade) I wind up having dozens of little bubbles. I'm using FDC's reflective, which has a nice bit of play for going over corners and curves. Anyone else deal with this or what am I doing wrong? All the cars have been out of the sun, but in a garage with no airconditioning. Heat has been steady low to mid 90's, with high humidity (typical eastern PA summer weather!)
Rick
Posted by Todd Gill (Member # 2569) on :
That's pretty tough Rick - heat and humidity...
Check with FDC and see if they allow for using a wet method with their reflective.
Avery has cautioned against it with theirs...
If it's ok with them...use the wet method solution of your choice.
Also...have you tried the "hinge" method? Aligning the graphic...applying a vertical piece of masking top over the center to hold it in place on the car...and then pealing back one half of the graphic up to the masking tape barrier, ripping off the backing paper....and then firmly squeegeeing the exposed reflective vinyl back on to the auto surface starting at the center masking tape barrier line going outwards to the one end of the graphic?
Then you do the same with the remaining half?
Posted by Checkers (Member # 63) on :
Hiya Rick, A quck look at FDC's site was useless. They offered no literature, specifications or installation instructions on their site. I suspect that technique will play more of a problem than temperature, but I've been wrong before In hot weather, technique is critical. The adhesive on just about any vinyl will become quite agressive in high temperatures. The vinyl can not come in contact with the substrate until it's positioned correctly and you use a squeegee to push the vinyl down on to the substrate. If the vinyl makes contact before you squeegee it down, you will get air bubbles. Application or positioning fluids may help in two ways, but check to make sure you can use them. It will cool the surface a little, making the vinyl adhesive less agressive. It will also act as a spacer or slip sheet until you apply pressure with a squeegee, assuming it doesn't evaporate first
Havin' fun,
Checkers
Posted by Mark Neurohr (Member # 2470) on :
Rick, I do reflective over reflective all the them. I do it wet (regardless of the mfg recommendations). Key thing to remember, is your squeege smooth! If it isn't, bubbles every time!! I spray both surfaces until saturated. After regeresting, use a felt squeegee to lay it down. I really lean into it with a good smooth squeegee (from the center on out), no problems!
Here's what we do with a fleet of Wreckers: Layer of chrome, White Reflective, then Blue Reflective on top. Looks Bitchen' during the day (Chrome stands out), but at night, the whole deal "lights up"!
Hope this helps. Mark
Posted by Rick Milne (Member # 4621) on :
Thanks, all. Yep, tried the hinge method, the "tape in the center" and work your way out method, and just about everything else. My squeegee is smooth - if it isn't I usually sand the edge against another's rib until it is, unless the edge is too far gone. Funny thing is I never had this problem with Avery, even in this heat last year. Gave up on Avery when I had to re-do an entire fleet due to their vinyl failure(s), and my local distributor switched to FDC and 3M, which is going to be my next choice to try. Mark, I'm very wary of a wet application. Waht do you use, and have you had any sort of problems with getting all the fluid to release (evaporate) from under the vinyl?
Rick
Posted by Dusty Campbell (Member # 4601) on :
I'd recommend hosing down the car to cool it off before you start, and try to do it in the morning or the night, not in the hot part of the day.
We did some dark blue trash trucks last year with reflective and it was the worst nightmare ever. The vinyl was practically liquid in the 100 degree heat, and due to the concavity of the truck, the stuff stretched and was very sensitive to the pressure of the squeege. Ever seen tiger striped reflective?
We had to redo one side 6 times to get it right. Ate alot of the profit right out of the job. Starting before sunrise and stopping by 7 am was the only way it worked well.
Posted by Dusty Campbell (Member # 4601) on :
I don't know why my first post isn't showing up, but my suggestion was to hose it down to cool it off. Or do it early in the morning or at night when it's cooler.
Edited to say: Well now it's showing up. Go figure.
[ July 22, 2006, 12:05 PM: Message edited by: Dusty Campbell ]
Posted by roger bailey (Member # 556) on :
Rick, most instances of "not evaporating out" are a result of cleaning the substrate (vehicle,etc.) with window cleaner,solvents,alcohol. Rapid Tac or TacII are "application fluids, not just positioning fluids" they will make easy work of your reflective applications etc..
I will send you some product samples if you promise to read and follow the instructions, or visit my site; www.rapidtac.com for more info.
e-mail your street address for the free samples.
Roger
Posted by Todd Gill (Member # 2569) on :
Rick - in regards to reflectives: Don't do wet application on reflectives WITHOUT first checking with the manufacturer.
Avery expressly cautioned against using wet apps with their reflectives. Ask around, and see how many failures resulted in not heeding that advice....after awhile, the reflective looks like it's growing black mold all over it from the inside out. Ask me how I know.
3M works fine.
Side Note: All fluids used in the applying of vinyls to a substrate are "application fluids." You are using the fluid as an aid to apply one thing to another. The soap within that fluid is what allows repostioning.
Main Entry: ap·pli·ca·tion Pronunciation: "a-pl&-'kA-sh&n Function: noun Etymology: Middle English applicacioun, from Latin application-, applicatio inclination, from applicare 1 : an act of applying: a (1) : an act of putting to use <application of new techniques> (2) : a use to which something is put <new applications for old remedies> (3) : a program (as a word processor or a spreadsheet) that performs one of the major tasks for which a computer is used b : an act of administering or superposing <application of paint to a house>
[ July 22, 2006, 05:54 PM: Message edited by: Todd Gill ]
Posted by Rick Milne (Member # 4621) on :
Dusty, that's what I was getting, too. Tiger stripes. Hosing them off isn't an option since I'm working in the municipal garage. Roger - I'll give the RTII a try; I have some here at the shop. I was always under the impression that one never used anything under reflective! Todd - My Avery failure was the same - "mold" or delamination, but I never used an application fluid under it - it was strictly a vinyl issue. If you have been using the 3M with the RapidTac, I'll give that a try!
Rick
Posted by roger bailey (Member # 556) on :
Todd, its fairly obvious to anyone reading here that YOU are trying very hard to cast doubt and mistrust in my word or my products. Go play a different drum Todd, you are just an annoyence (in case I'm not spelling that correctly, why not make a big damn issue of that too?).
You Can't be that stupid to think posting definetions regarding the word application make a rats ass difference to anyone other then yourself in your relentless effort to discredit.
In my advise to others I point out that soap&water soluton was NOT designed for applying vinyl or any other self adhesive films. The BIG point is that Rapid application fluids do MORE then just delay bonding and therfore are MORE then "POSITIONING FLUIDS" GET IT TODD?
Then again, maybe you are that stupid ?
Posted by Jason Davie (Member # 2172) on :
Ive noticed thatif you apply your vinyl while eating a PB&J that it makes it a much more enjoyable time..just watch out for crumbs between the substate and vinyl..
Jason D
Posted by Todd Gill (Member # 2569) on :
Roger - ?? I'm not discrediting anyone or anything...I've used your products...they work just fine...In fact, I have a bottle of Rapid Prep sitting here that I just bought and used on a job...
A lot of other products and solutions work just fine too.
I wouldn't cast dispersions on soap and water either (since you brought it up) because that method has worked for it's intended purpose for decades.
I'm just pointing out that once again...it seems to me that you are advising people to use a method (not specifically even pointing out your product) before ensuring they are recommended by certain manufacturers.
Why would you do that? That is not in the best interest of installers.
Like I said, Avery had specifically advised people NOT to use wet applications with a specific reflective vinyl of theirs - pointing out that it could cause failure. I simply, wisely, point out that it would be prudent to know what other reflective manufacturers recommend in regards to wet applications before you use them...whether it be soap and water, Rapid products, or cow whiz.
Are you smarter than the lab personel employed by the vinyl manufacturers?
You don't have a patent on the word "application"....
That word has been around a long time Roger...you don't appear to me to be a few hundred years old.
Based upon the definition posted...spit could qualify as an application solution. How do you know what soap and water was *designed* to do? If you have such intimate knowledge on the design purposes of soap and water tell me this:
1.) Who invented the soap and water technique? 2.) Where are published documents stating it's use - by the originator - and development as a quote/unquote positioning solution for the sign industry? 3.) What year and what location was it invented?
Scotchguard wasn't intended nor developed to be used as a fabric stain repellent...but it seems to work just fine.
I'll quit throwing out worlwide approved definitions straight out of the Webster dictionary when you quit trying to make them exclusively your own.
quote:You Can't be that stupid to think posting definetions regarding the word application make a rats ass difference to anyone other then yourself in your relentless effort to discredit.
That's an ironic statement - apparently YOU give a rat's ass about the word "application" and are yourself relentless in trying to twist it's meaning to your own benefit.
I have every right to call anything I want an application solution, especially when it's compatible with the common understanding of it's definition in the english language.
GET IT ROGER?
And I resent your constant inference that I'm "stupid." Shall we compare degrees? That kind of borders on defamation of character.
Edit: Rick - in the case of Avery applied dry exhibiting "mold" appearance and delam - water from rain, washings which come into contact with unprotected edges could cause the same problem. Avery had a ton of claims on some of their reflectives.
[ July 23, 2006, 11:02 PM: Message edited by: Todd Gill ]
Posted by Rick Beisiegel (Member # 3723) on :
Rick
Without getting too technical, I had a similar problem. I ran Gerber reflective along side Avery, and the Avery had many issues. Gerber had zero problems, so it wasnt an application problem.
Avery sent replacment vinyl, and suggested that I apply it without any fluid. So, I did it dry just like the initial installation. Might be good to review this old post.
[ July 23, 2006, 11:22 PM: Message edited by: Rick Beisiegel ]
Posted by Patrick Whatley (Member # 2008) on :
Dang, I'd swear I've heard this argument about 40 times now.
Rick, get a bottle of Rapid Tac, soak the hell out of the reflective, slap it on there and squeegee it out. I've used it with 3M reflective, Avery reflective, Jesco Reflective and Nikkalite reflective. No failures, no mold, no rust. The stuff just works.
Posted by Dave Draper (Member # 102) on :
Id like to slip in one more comment, then its back to the one on one with Roger and Todd.....
I had metalic gold vinyl turn black. Wet applied it, no problems for over a year, then it starts this black grunge growth.
The maufacture asked me to ask the customer if they bought a new power washer and was using that to wash the truck...so I did...and the customer said "YES, HOW DID YOU KNOW?"
Seems that the pressure washer they were using was so powerful it blew moisture under the edges of the vinyl and the grunge started and just look horrible after a few months.
The manufacture wouldn't stand behind the product, the customer is really put out with me (like its my fault) and wants the whole job redone for free!
I told the customer the manufacturer's "give a damn" was busted, so there wasn't much I could do for him. I asked him if the letters were curling up or coming off..and he said "NO"...so I said I did my part of the job right!
Sorry for the interuption....back to the good stuff! Posted by Doug Allan (Member # 2247) on :
Dave... you listen to country music? (the wife has that song on in her truck a lot)
Posted by roger bailey (Member # 556) on :
Thanks Pat, I know for a fact there are many many more folks that have your great results when applying reflective with Rapid Tac or TacII, we recomend TacII.
Most of our "mold testing" points at the residue under the vinyl (film) left from improper cleaning. Amonia (found in window/glass cleaners) is the big culprit, these residues (in a southern hummid environment)can grow mold under film in just a couple months.
Using Rapid Tac or TacII will NOT promote mold, we have had no mold growth due to cleaning and applying with Rapid products.
BTW TODD, does soap and water CLEAN the substrate without leaving a contaminating residue ?, does soap and water stimulate the adhesive to bond faster ?,the answer is NO,to both, thats why we refer to Rapid Tac and TacII as application fluids in comparison to the single benefit of soap and water being a slip (or positioning ) fluid only.
I don't lay claim to any words or terms, I use them, especially the ones that best describe a situation, method, etc..
I'm sure you understand the difference in benefits from the two, I'm also sure you don't care ! If your happy with soap and water, and wish to refer to it as a application fluid, well be my guest TODD, but, like you have stated to me "be sure you know what you are recomending people to use and what the consecuences may be" !
Roger
Posted by Todd Gill (Member # 2569) on :
"Stimulant" or "Activator" makes much more sense Roger. A better marketing term might be "stimulator."
You don't see me promoting any particular wet application....people can use what they like. I've used yours, I've used mine.
Recommending ANY wet application without first knowing the manufacturers recommendations is HORRIBLE advice.
In the case of a particular Avery reflective, my buddy used Rapid Prep and Rapid Tac to install on a fairly large fleet of Police Cars. He experienced the same "mold" problems described. His distributor informed him that Avery did not recommend any wet application, and voided the warranty of wet apps with that particular reflective vinyl.
Now whether it was attributable to the wet app as a generic application or powerwashing that allowed water under the edges of the vinyl by the police garage during cleaning - he doesn't know...the point being that NO wet applications were advised by Avery.
I/he wouldn't put the blame on Rapid products per se, but rather not following Avery's advice and doing a wet application in general. Is this making sense?
Here is a link to Avery's installation/specification data sheet if quality and facts are important to you:
Here is the critical excerpt from that Avery specification sheet if you truly care. I've highlighted the portion relating to the discussion at hand:
Everyone can make their own determination...but if it's quality, and factual information you want...I'd prefer to trust the manufacturer's advice.
Would you disregard a tire manufacturer's advice on air pressure and run around with 10psi in your tire? I wouldn't.
How can it be a bad thing to follow the manufacturer's installation instructions?
Posted by roger bailey (Member # 556) on :
Your last question Todd, check with some others here that followed Averys' instructions on films, and what they think of the warranty issue.
Your right, "everyone will trust what or who they wish" and once again, YOU can trust whatever/whoever YOU wish to !
Roger
Posted by Dan Antonelli (Member # 86) on :
I just wanted to say -- that I just experienced an issue with white avery reflective turning black with mold/mildew. I had three areas on the patrol care done - 2 done dry, and 1 done (larger area) wet with (soapy water/alcohol solution). All three areas turned moldy. So the dry vs. wet made no difference.
That being said, I do want to say one thing about Roger's products. Roger's glue remover--- man --- it just totally saved my butt this last friday, when the cars we're returned to me to replace the word 'police' which sits on top of black which in turn sits on red. I figured on having to strip the whole door from scratch. Well I managed to just get the 'police' off and then used Roger's stuff to get the glue-- it came off WITH EASE... and saved me HOURS of time.
SO THANKS ROGER!
Dan
Posted by Todd Gill (Member # 2569) on :
Roger - I'm sure Avery will be stumbling all over themselves to recommend YOUR product after that comment.... Posted by Rick Beisiegel (Member # 3723) on :
Dan
I think everyone here will agree that the Rapid Remover is a necessary tool in any vinyl environment. It is quick, clean, and smells better than anything it replaces.
The constant contraversy seems to be with the necessity of application fluids, (Rapid Tac or otherwise). The mold issue is a new one on me. Never had that happen here. But, we pretty much apply dry here.
Posted by Blake Wright (Member # 6584) on :
I just installed 215' of reflective 3M red on a gas station canopy in the air with a temp of 98. I did a wet application as recomended by my local 3m rep. and didn't see any bubbles. Before I did it I asked my local rep (3M's Mark Somonian) what fluid to use? He told me JOY soap and water. But he said only Joy soap. Why? I Dunno. But it worked great for that flat surface.
Posted by Todd Gill (Member # 2569) on :
Blake - that's because it probably has no "hand lotion/skin softeners" in it...straight soap.
Same is true with classic Dawn. I've used this method for 20+ years with zero failures and zero complaints...
I'm not knocking Rogers products (as he thinks...) because I've used them on occasion too and they work well.
Agree with Rick on the Rapid Remover - great stuff.
AS far as the wet method - personal preference...I am happy with my home brew. Has been very reliable and after using a gallon of it, I figure I owe me and the wife a meal out on the town with the savings.
Posted by David Harding (Member # 108) on :
As the saying goes, “I don’t have a dog in this fight”, however, I will mention part of a conversation I had with a knowledgeable Avery executive a couple of years ago.
We were discussing wet applications and the reason they are not recommended and he brought up the issue of oxidation of the Aluminum layer. The black moldy looking spots did not come up in our discussion since I hadn’t heard of, or experienced that.
After I mentioned Rapid Tac, he said, “If anyone’s wet product would work, it would be Roger’s. He has really done his homework and has done extensive testing. It is unlikely there would be any problem with his product, but our policy is that we cannot recommend wet applications.” In order to keep manufacturers’ warranties in effect, I still do my reflective applications dry, although, after that conversation, I feel confident Roger’s product won’t hurt on reflective. I guess you could sum this up with “caveat installer”.
Posted by Dusty Campbell (Member # 4601) on :
Are those of you experiencing spots sealing the edges?
Posted by roger bailey (Member # 556) on :
Todd, FYI, Avery sells application fluid, called "Right On" they also sell adhesive remover, appropriatly named "Right Off".Guess they know what it sometimes takes to do the job right !
I doubt they would be steering folks in my direction !
Blake, sounds like your 3M rep at least understands the need for wet application of reflective (hes no doubt been there and done that), Blake if you would like a free sample pak of Rapid Products, email your street address to; mail@rapidtac.com We won't annoy you with calls or emails or mailings (ask anyone, honest)
Roger
Posted by Todd Gill (Member # 2569) on :
Roger - who makes Right On and Right Off?
I gotta feeling that they still wouldn't be happy you diss-ing their product?
Posted by roger bailey (Member # 556) on :
Maybe you were confused, I was refering to the instructions they recommend, and the terms or handeling of they're warranty.
Maybe I spoke and don't remember ?
Help me out on that "diss-ing they're product" thing, will ya TODD ?
See Todd, how MISSINFORMATION gets started !!!!!!!!!!
Roger
Posted by Dave Grundy (Member # 103) on :
The only comment/question I would have is..
After a year or so, how would anyone know if stuff was stuck to stuff with "application fluid" or "done dry"? After all, aren't you supposed to squeegie out all of the fluid to start with?
All the manufacturer has to go by is the installers word?
If I had a failure, I'd be hiding my Rapid Tac, every bottle of Shirl's dishwashing detergent, and turning off the water supply at the shop before a rep came to check things out!!!
It's like the edge sealing of SignGold thing...Manufacturer recommends it..but in well over 7 years of using it I have never edge sealed it..and as of today I have never had a failure. (But then I got lucky on the Avery failure thing too)
[ July 24, 2006, 08:18 PM: Message edited by: Dave Grundy ]
Posted by Todd Gill (Member # 2569) on :
quote:Your last question Todd, check with some others here that followed Averys' instructions on films, and what they think of the warranty issue.
If that isn't belittling Avery's product, I don't know what is...
quote:Maybe I spoke and don't remember ?
That's entirely possible.
So, Roger...you never answered my question: Who makes Right On and Right Off for Avery? Since you brought it up...and mentioned they wouldn't steer anyone to your product?? I'm genuinely curious.
Posted by Jon Jantz (Member # 6137) on :
I don't know how MISS INFORMATION got started but I heard that MISS PUERTO RICO is the new MISS UNIVERSE. I think she was sponsored by Jif and Smuckers.
[ July 25, 2006, 12:19 AM: Message edited by: Jon Jantz ]
Posted by roger bailey (Member # 556) on :
Todd, heres a thought; call Avery and find out !
And Todd, a product is what a company sells, a warranty is NOT a product nor are instructions, a warranty is simply a promise to perform in the event of a failure of said product.
You should maybe look THAT up in your Websters ;>) Want to continue, I have a large blader?
Roger
Posted by Kelly Thorson (Member # 2958) on :
OK, everybody out! It's the cleaning lady come to do the stalls, this washroom is now closed for cleaning, please don't slip on the wet floor on the way out.
Are you guys for real? Posted by Todd Gill (Member # 2569) on :
quote:Avery sells application fluid, called "Right On" they also sell adhesive remover, appropriatly named "Right Off".Guess they know what it sometimes takes to do the job right !
I doubt they would be steering folks in my direction !
I just wonder where "Right On" comes from....you say Avery wouldn't "steer anyone in your direction." It must come from somewhere...I doubt they make it.
C'mon Roger...if you know tell me....is Right On any good?
[ July 25, 2006, 07:39 AM: Message edited by: Todd Gill ]
Posted by Dan Antonelli (Member # 86) on :
Belittling Avery's product? The same Avery that refuses to stand by their product? Ask Bert Quimby what he thinks of Avery after re-lettering over 100 trucks due to Avery's failure. They have totally abandoned the people who got screwed by their vinyl failures.
I myself will NEVER use another Avery product. 3 Police car redo's is enough for me.
Posted by Todd Gill (Member # 2569) on :
Dan - you have to read between the lines regarding the Avery comments.
Mainly: the issue, once again...is manufacturer B recommending an application procedure for manufacturer A's product which may be specifically determined by manufacturer A to cause failure, and void a warranty. It could be Avery, or it could be any number of manufacturers.
It's not the only time this has occured here and I don't think it's in the best interest of sign makers. How can one argue against checking the application recommendations/specifications with the manufacturer before doing an install?
I no longer use Avery myself, but you can hardly recommend a method of application - no matter the manufacturer involved - that may be specifically advised against by the manufacturer and which may have adverse warranty implications.
If a manufacturer recommends against a "wet method" in general, one would assume that any wet solution is advised against. At the very least, when the question arises, Roger should advise checking with the manufacturer first.
[ July 25, 2006, 09:35 AM: Message edited by: Todd Gill ]
Posted by Bob Rochon (Member # 30) on :
Kelly Posted by Bill Lynch (Member # 3815) on :
Roger, For a guy that makes a great product that is an industry leader you have an incredibly juvenile attitude. I think your responses and hostile language loses more customers than it gains.
And this is from someone who just ordered another gallon of Rapidtac.
Posted by Rick Milne (Member # 4621) on :
Damn! Alright, guys, enough already. I asked a simple question to see what ya'll were doing if you had a similar situation. I never expected it to expand into a heated discussion about liquids (or lack therof). We are all professionals here, aren't we? Allowed to have differing opinions, and to use what we find works for us...so: thanks for everyone's input on trying a different technique to applying my reflectives. I'll give a wet application a shot the next car I have. Until then - everyone back to work!
Rick
Posted by Patrick Whatley (Member # 2008) on :
Well there you go Rick, just put each letter down using a different combination of suggestions and at least one of the letters will stick.
Posted by Dan Antonelli (Member # 86) on :
Todd-
Bert only installs dry. He followed their recommended procedures and they really dropped the ball. That's all I was saying---
Posted by roger bailey (Member # 556) on :
Sorry you feel that way Bill, I never did care too much for that "politically correct" thing. When someone is intent to cause damage or misinform, well, I'm on damage control, I know a lot of people don't like that about me but, I'm not here to make new friends. I make products, I hand out advise, I speak from FACT, not someones spec. sheet.
Guess you can't be all things to all people, so I'll just continue to build the best products for the jobs and say it like it is !
Two or so years ago I tried to tell people here and on other boards that Averys new product "ez series" was having a few issues (info. I first got from calls from my end users) funny how I was belitteled for bringing the truth to the table, some folks don't like the sound of the truth !
Sorry, Roger
Posted by Todd Gill (Member # 2569) on :
"Saying it like it is" should mean advising people to double-check manufacturers recommendations before advising the use of another parties product in conjunction with theirs.
This is about the proper recommendation of how to apply reflective vinyls.
I simply suggest that before applying a reflective "wet" - regardless the solution, you should double-check the reflective manufacturer's recommendations BECAUSE at least one reflective manufacturer (Avery in the case of my example) recommends against wet apps.
My only argument Roger...is that in the best interest of sign makers and their relationships to their clients, they should apply any given vinyl to the Manufacturer's recommendations - or be willing to deal with complaints down the road.
So, I very simply...and very responsibly I think, suggest that you don't exclude the manufacturer's recommendations when hawking your product. In most cases, there would be no issue...but some reflectives are a different beast.
Again - facts are a stubborn thing....read the highlighted yellow in this case.
The prudent thing to do is check the manufacturer's recommendations for application in each case. Everyone posting here obviously has web access and can quickly determine this. It could save a lot of problems down the road for quality minded sign-makers.
Posted by Tony Vickio (Member # 2265) on :
I think that along with Avery's strong reccomendation Not to apply their Reflective vinyl wet, they should also reccomend NOT to use Avery Reflective Vinyl !!!!
Posted by roger bailey (Member # 556) on :
You Todd (as stated before) have your opinion, I think we all "got it" and yes you are intiteled to it !
The fact is, I own Rapid Tac Inc. I have for 20 years, I (and many of my customers judging from calls to me over the years)believe that applying reflective (and so many other types) films with Rapid products causes no harm in fact results in a better looking and longer lasting application. Our own tests back this up, so, That is MY opinion and you will not change that nor the way I conduct my business, period !
We have both so VERY well, covered our opinions, do you feel the need to add to yours ?
Roger,the not p.c. kinda guy
Posted by Rick Beisiegel (Member # 3723) on :
quote:Originally posted by Bill Lynch: Roger, For a guy that makes a great product that is an industry leader you have an incredibly juvenile attitude. I think your responses and hostile language loses more customers than it gains.
I guess that's it in a nutshell Bill. I see Todd being just as stubborn, but he seems to keep his cool. Roger and I have disagreed in the past, and I found that if my opinoin was different than his, I would be on the business end of his hostility. I don't need it.
Posted by roger bailey (Member # 556) on :
Opinions are one thig Rick, "spining" is quite another.
Frankly your opinion never bothered me,just your insulting stabs at humor.
Roger
Posted by Todd Gill (Member # 2569) on :
Tony....that I would agree with.
Regardless...any responsible person would follow the manufacturer's instructions...and advise others to do the same.
I for one like Rick's humor...and I'd say the spinning is coming from elsewhere.
More than anything else though, at this point...I just wanted to get the last word in. Posted by Janette Balogh (Member # 192) on :
The "weirdness" on this thread is all about that almighty race to the "last word".
Seems everyone's points have them made the first time. Step away from the hammer!
Avery could take a lesson here from Roger. At least he's not afraid to interact with his customers and doesn't hide from the "muck" of getting involved on here.
~nettie
Posted by roger bailey (Member # 556) on :
Thanks Janette, but it is the one thing people dislike the most.
Myself, I never could act like a suit and follow that corporate structure thing.
Roger
Posted by Todd Gill (Member # 2569) on :
Word Posted by Stefanie Fox (Member # 6523) on :
Posted by jack wills (Member # 521) on :
My Dad, Could kick all yer dad's a$$es,cause he didn't Lie,Cheat,Steal and he policed himself. He did have a drink or two on occasion. He could hunt down a squirrel, a turkey, a boar hog, and I once watched him wrestle a bear. He was at one time the president of the Peoria Motorcycle Club.
So simmer down Y'all.
CrazyJack
Posted by roger bailey (Member # 556) on :
Wow Steve, you'll just let anybody in around here ehh ?
Roger
Posted by Ray Rheaume (Member # 3794) on :
So what have we learned here today, boys and girls?
1: Everyone has an opinion. What cna be gain from them depends largely on how much you value their opinion....
2: Sometimes it works, sometimes it don't. Let's be real here. High heat and high humidity are going to be factors in how well ANY process that involves evaporation is going to go. Paint's gonna dry at a different rate than "optimum" conditions. So is application fluid. Rick asked for your experiences, not opinions. (see article #1 above)
3: Todd reads lables. To his credit, I know a whole lot of folks who buy stuff based on other people's experiences and dive in without reading how to properly use the stuff.
4: Roger makes stuff. When used properly, it's pretty good stuff. Other companies make similar stuff. Roger competes with them, and by the look of things, on his own terms.
5: This is the internet, and not unlike a telephone, it can be stopped when it bothers you. This can be accomplished by clicking on the "X" in the upper right corner of your screen.
Buh Bye. "CLICK"
Posted by John Deaton (Member # 925) on :
What is it about Roger that every time he makes a remark about his product, someone gets on him about it. Hes a merchant. He pays 500 bucks a year to be one.He should be able to hawk it as much as he wants. Every time someone mentions Rapid Tac, others come in and say, either I make my own, or I use brand x, or brand c, etc. One of the main things Steve asks members here to do is try and use the merchants products, as they pay to keep this site running. The way Roger is continually debated about his product, it makes me wonder why he is a merchant. Just dont seem right to me.
Posted by Si Allen (Member # 420) on :
Especially Toddy!
I'm with Tater...back off on Merchants...unless there is a real problem!
[ July 26, 2006, 01:06 AM: Message edited by: Si Allen ]
Posted by Bill Lynch (Member # 3815) on :
"Sorry you feel that way Bill, I never did care too much for that "politically correct" thing. ....I'm not here to make new friends." I wasn't talking about PC I was talking about a professional, businesslike attitude. And I thought the point of being a merchant point WAS "to make new friends" or at least new customers. You were the one who started with the hostile attitude and name calling. If my local sign supply rep acted like that when I disgreed with him or questioned him I'd be looking elswhere. And that's exactly what I will do..move on to other application products, and avoid the posts on this topic in the future.
Posted by George Perkins (Member # 156) on :
quote:Originally posted by roger bailey: Thanks Janette, but it is the one thing people dislike the most.
Myself, I never could act like a suit and follow that corporate structure thing.
Roger
Roger, you need to edit that statement to read but it is the one thing SOME people dislike the most. I, for one, think things would be a lot better off if more merchants were like you.
I know you have always been available to answer any questions I've ever had be it on here, via e-mail or on the phone.
Posted by Janette Balogh (Member # 192) on :
quote:You were the one who started with the hostile attitude and name calling.
Well, I figured I must have missed that, so I went back and reread everything Roger spoke. I don't see it.
Here's what I do see. To me, it's clear that there are some past issues between Todd and Roger about "the continuing applications fluid saga". I see Todd pushing an "issue" that just doesn't need to be an "issue, ... in his usual "right fighting, last word grabbing" style. Todd, I do like you, so please don't take offence. Just trying to keep it real here.
I see Roger trying to keep things from getting tangled up in semantics.
What I didn't see is either of them getting too terribly out of line ... just kind of annoying because neither wanted to let up .... and YAWN ... they just needed to get over it.
I mean ... IOFAF right?
~nettie
Posted by roger bailey (Member # 556) on :
Bill, I'm sorry I have not met your expectations as a businessman, I'm also sorry you don't know the evolution Todd comes from with his attitude toward me and my products.
If you are that bothered that you feel you must change brands well, so be it, I'm not changin my colors for anyone,I'm an honest, concerned, considerate businessman, I'm not here to fit your image.
Roger
Posted by Bob Rochon (Member # 30) on :
Hey I will continue to buy rapid products because they work and make me money. That's all I need to concern myself with.
Posted by roger bailey (Member # 556) on :
Thank You Bob !
Roger
Posted by Rick Beisiegel (Member # 3723) on :
Open letter to Roger:
I don't think the merchants have any more right than the residents, regardless of what they pay. (correct me if I misunderstand)
The way I see it is that Merchants are here to promote their product through education. You have done that many times. Like George says, you always make yourself available to assist with the proper use of the products you sell. You also have every right to contribute to any post you see fit to reply to.
Where the problem lies is when someone disagrees, you come out swinging. Especially if a little humor is added. Other merchants do not respond that way.
I noticed the class way Don from Gemini handled the mild flaming he took a couple months ago. How would JD III reply if someone wanted to make their own clipart, because it's cheaper? He'd probably say "ok, have at it, have a nice day" (Hope you don't mind my using your name John, but you were the first merchant I thought of)
Over and over again people here, (me included) sing the praises of your fine line of products. Seems to me if someone wants to make a home brew or do a dry application. So be it....on to the next.
edited cause I can't spell.
[ July 26, 2006, 03:17 PM: Message edited by: Rick Beisiegel ]
Posted by Todd Gill (Member # 2569) on :
Evolution of my attitude against your products? How can their be an evolution of attitude against your products when I USE your products on occassion?
Roger...please....
Reread...did I not say in one post above that I had a new bottle of Rapid Prep sitting on my worktable?
That doesn't sound like someone who's out to slam your products.
I have no problem at all with your products...and I don't know how I can say that differently...
It's the recommending them on occassion in instances where the product being installed recommends AGAINST a wet method. Like the Avery reflective application instructions I posted above.
Same with the old Sign-gold debate.
I encourage Roger to hawk his products often...as he should...just needs to know that there are some instances where it should be conceded that it's not always an appropriate recommendation when it conflicts with the manufacturer's installation recommendation.
That's it...now may I please have the last word?
Posted by David Harding (Member # 108) on :
No
Posted by Dave Grundy (Member # 103) on :
And neither may the always humorous Mr. Harding!! So THERE!!! Posted by Todd Gill (Member # 2569) on :
Please?
Posted by Dave Grundy (Member # 103) on :
Todd, it's late so I don't have time to explain why you can't have the last word..You'll have to trust me on this one!!!! Posted by Todd Gill (Member # 2569) on :
Roger, I don't think Todd or anyone has any "Evolution of my attitude against your products?" ...it's you dude!..
I think a lot of people got a problem with YOU!
..I know I took a lot of heat speaking in your defense to Mark Fair.. why? ...I know you didn't ask, & don't need anyone to "defend" you... but as much as you are here, there were times when you were not, I saw him blast you & it just seemed rather.. well, ...unfair.
But as time wore on I have seen the fact that you can be a real firstclass idiot sometimes & even more arrogant then myowndamnself...
...ever since you fabricated some left-field misconception over what you imagined was somehow hidden in between the lines of some post I wrote, you railed on me with your own scathing abusive style (not unlike myself, once again) & the allegations were so clearly 180 degrees from anything written, thought, or implied ...I honestly thought you were replying to some different post when I railed back on your bullschitt.
Anyway Steve asked us to edit out our unfriendly exchange... I did... you didn't.
I sent 3 polite im's to understand why a guy I once welcomed into my shop would fabricate scathing allegations & brutal insinuations, ...but you never replied,
...so however good rapidtac may be... YOU are one complete childish fukinasshole from hell that is not worth the consideration of a respectful comment or a polite abstention from comment. You, my friend, are a laughable, uneducated, unprofessional target & you continue to garner more animosity the longer you open your damn mouth & shove your lowlife foot in it. Posted by Ray Rheaume (Member # 3794) on :
yep...that outta do it.
Where's the key, Steve?
Posted by Si Allen (Member # 420) on :
Obviously we have a few residents here with such collosal egos, that any disagreement with thier "Truths" becomes a scathing attack!
Enough already!
Posted by Kissymatina (Member # 2028) on :
I use rapid products, however I do agree to a point with Todd, that there is a concern on voiding any manufacturer's warranty if it's not installed to their specs. If they say to install dry & you use any fluids, it's going to void the warranty plain & simple, much like ripping that sticker on a computer case. We've learned that some warranties aren't worth the paper they're printed on but their specs still need to be weighed into making your decision. But then I think people need to do more research (research=learning) in general instead of expecting someone else to tell them every little thing about a subject.
I also agree with George. And it doesn't surprise me that Roger is a little defensive considering all the crap he's had flung at him over the years here, usually by the same people. If a dog is constantly trying to bite you, you automatically go on guard around it, unless you're 10-second Tom.
But this is getting old.
Posted by David Harding (Member # 108) on :
The last word in the The Random House College Dictionary, Cambridge International Dictionary of English, and Encarta World English Dictionary, North American Edition is:
ZZZ
Used to represent the sound of snoring.
I think that about sums this up.
Posted by Michael R. Bendel (Member # 5847) on :
I also use rapid tack!
I love it in cold MN applications!
What a thread!
Apply Avery dry... because the adhesive fails! Dry application will hold & cure much better than a wet application. The edges stay exposed longer using wet!
3M (this is not an infomercial) stands up to both wet & dry. Have NEVER heard the mold issue... NEVER, EVER, NEVER.
We apply most everything dry (except 2nd layers)& technique is the soul of bubbleless application! Hot or cold!
I always tell my customers (when there is a bubble) it's like a balloon you take home from the fair... It's flat in a day! Now get the heck outta here & quit smellin' my sign! Posted by roger bailey (Member # 556) on :
Hey Doug, geeeezzzz, have another one pal ! WHEEW !
Or maybe switch to poca lolo.
Rick, see my website , somewhere on there I made a statement (more then 10 years ago) "wet is not always the answer" the statements still there.
Even I do dry apps. at times (when they are less then 1 inch charecters) or less in total then 6" X 4". I also lay 1/8" stripe tape dry (after pre cleaning with Rapid Tac). I will argue with you when you say it takes more time to apply wet or that you have to WAIT a long time for film to bond, those are errors in the wet method with my product that are easily changed with correct info., and I'm anxious to re-educate to solve those errors.
I have put up with a ton of negative remarks about my application fluids not being any better then soap&water, I have put up with film manufacturers telling people not to use Rapid Tac products (they ARE getting better about that now) cause they may damage the film, at the same time they are recommending alcohol or paint solvent type wax/grease removers to pre clean with (when we have evidence that those solvents leave NONcompatible residues under film that WILL cause damage). I guess I get a bit fired up when trying to defeat the missinformation out there about use of my products and the cost vs the benefits.
I'm not a salesman, nor a chemist, I spent my life in shops from 1965 to 1987, my products have to make the job better and easier for me before they are sold to you ! Period.
Roger
P.S. get a good nights sleep Doug.
Posted by Curtis hammond (Member # 2170) on :
Well, I for one know without a doubt that Soap and WAter SUX... PERIOD.
I tried it a few weeks ago,, and it SUX,, took too long to dry,, and never did stick just right,, dawn soap and water,, what a waste of time.. Those who say it works fine have never used a really good product..
Posted by roger bailey (Member # 556) on :
The hats off to you Curtis, and a big atta boy for the things you did durring the storm (yer one a those selfless people) a rare comodity.
And thanks !
Roger
Posted by KARYN BUSH (Member # 1948) on :
roger...you are a-ok in my book. i love your products and use them daily.i certainly think you do your job as a merchant...ya just can't please everyone. todd...i think you are a-ok too. you had some good points for sure and you use humor so things aren't mean spirited. nettie put it so well it doesn't need to be repeated. i think its too bad when people fight on the board here. but it did seem like some of it was a little harmless...at least in the malstick thread and toward the end of this. BUT i'm not quite understanding dougs post...wtf? i thought steve just addressed the name calling issue...oh well...must be having a bad nite or something Posted by Michael R. Bendel (Member # 5847) on :
Doug...I agree... but dude.... good reading huh? hahahah!!! snap!
Roger, I get it... I think... but you read too far between the lines.
Let's all shake hands, make up & watch the thread amazingly disappear before our eyes....
This may not be seen because the thread may be "stiched" in the morning!
Mornin' Steve.
Posted by Steve Shortreed (Member # 436) on :
I finally get a chance to look at the BB and look what's going on.
This is so silly. It's a good idea to read the manufacturer's recommendations, but who here only uses genuine manufacturer's parts on thier cars and trucks? If everyone followed the manufacturer's directions, there would be no competition or innovation. Go ahead and pull that mattress tag off. Live dangerously.
I'm more concerned with the name calling. We are all well aware of your different views on this subject. Leave it alone and allow us to make up our own minds.
We just had a wonderful Dinner with Dan and a bunch of Letterheads. Tomorrow we are going to a Letterhead Meet. This thread's closed.
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I don't need it. ![[Bash]](graemlins/bash.gif)
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I see Todd pushing an "issue" that just doesn't need to be an "issue, ... in his usual "right fighting, last word grabbing" style. ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
Todd, I do like you, so please don't take offence. Just trying to keep it real here.![[Embarrassed]](redface.gif)
... they just needed to get over it. ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
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