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I have a customer that wants to put some signs on the side of his 100+ year old building. Of course it is made of brick and plastered over. He just spent a lot of money having it plastered in the last 6 years and is concerned if we drill into the plaster it will crack and come loose. What do you recommend to anchor the Alu-panel to the brick? I was going to drill and use anchors but now he thinks maybe some construction adhesive is the way to go.
-------------------- Rob Lenz Lenz Signs 402 Elm St. Osage, Iowa 50461 Posts: 134 | From: Osage, Iowa | Registered: May 2002
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100 year old brick........will be pretty crumbly. glueing a sign to the stacco.......will put the load on the bond between the brick & stacco......if the bond comes loose.....it will put the stacco from the brick......it can be fixed....breaking the old brick........is non fixable........
-------------------- joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-637-1519 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
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Rob..If the client is that worried about possible installation problems and you are worried about it too...I'd tell him to look after the installation himself.
In my opinion, 100 year old brick structures are a lot more sturdy and sound than newer structures. If I had to do it, I'd go with your original idea. Drill holes, insert anchors and screw/bolt the sign.
If the "plaster/stucco" or whatever comes loose, then the company who did that job didn't do a very good job in the first place, and it will probably start falling off soon anyway.
Have fun and cover yer butt!!!
-------------------- Dave Grundy retired in Chelem,Yucatan,Mexico/Hensall,Ontario,Canada 1-519-262-3651 Canada 011-52-1-999-102-2923 Mexico cell 1-226-785-8957 Canada/Mexico home
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Plus it's a good idea to blow out the pre-drilled holes and squirt latex caulk or whatever of your choosing, then insert Tapcon. The brick is basically sealed that way. Moisture for anything, including brick and mortar is not good. Mick
-------------------- Mick Samsel Creative Services Cherokee, IA Posts: 498 | From: Cherokee, Ia USA | Registered: Jan 1999
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I'm with Wayne on the Tapcons. You don't need as many as you think so minimal drilling. But here's a tip. Since the brick is covered, I would drill the hole size as recommended for the size Tapcon you are using. If you hit mortar you will know it and the hole will be the right size. If you hit brick, the Tapcon could go in so tight that it could snap. I just did a job where I had to drill into brick and I've broken more than one Tapcon doing that. So I had the idea of using the bit for the next size up. The Tapcon screwed in easily but still had great grip.
It seems that twisting is their only weakness. On this recent job I had used Tapcons to mount a stainless steel bracket. I changed the sign and did not need the stainless steel bracket any more so I had to remove the Tapcons but one of them would not budge. I even used an impact driver hoping it would just snap off. No luck, finally rounded the hex head. I beat the hell out of it with a sledge hammer to get it to break.
Shear strength of 1/4" Tapcons in light concrete block which would include brick is 620 lbs. per screw. They recommend that static loading should not exceed 25% of the ultimate load capacity. So if your sign is 620 lbs. or less you would only need 4 Tapcons for this job.
-------------------- Dave Sherby "Sandman" SherWood Sign & Graphic Design Crystal Falls, MI 49920 906-875-6201 sherwoodsign@sbcglobal.net Posts: 5396 | From: Crystal Falls, MI USA | Registered: Apr 1999
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Thanks for all the great suggestions. I plan to use Alu-panel, composite aluminum which is light weight. The size has to be determined yet for the vendors in the store. I am designing the sign for the business at possibly 5 X 20, it's a big wall, and he wants all of his locations listed on the sign.
-------------------- Rob Lenz Lenz Signs 402 Elm St. Osage, Iowa 50461 Posts: 134 | From: Osage, Iowa | Registered: May 2002
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For lightweight panels I prefer a nylon hit fastener, for several reasons.
• It completely avoids the problem of a concrete screw getting stuck and breaking off. Or, a screw that won't bite because you penetrated some old crumbly mortar. And when one breaks off, what do you do? Start a new hole in the face? Skip the hole and cover it with a vinyl patch? Take an aspirin? Drink scotch? • Secondly, you don't need a screw gun to drive in a hit fastener. No time spent changing from drill bit to driver. So it's a quicker install. Just light taps with a hammer are all that's needed. In fact, if you hit too firmly you can dimple the ACM panel (I don't use them on Alumalite for this reason. Picture a tufted mattress installed vertically). • Also, you really don't need the shear strength of a high-carbon concrete screw for a lightweight panel. In a way it's overkill. I do, however, like concrete screws for lighted cabinets, where weight is a greater issue. Used inside of a cabinet the screw is out of the weather, and you don't need very many of them, especially when you consider that all the cabinets are aluminum these days. Not like in the old days when we made overweight signs with angle iron frames skinned in Paint-Lok steel. That's why we had lags and shields, and worked out at the gym. • Finally, there is less of a rust issue with a fastener that has a plastic sleeve. Just a spot of paint on the head of the drive pin when you're done. Or better yet, use the kind with stainless steel pins and skip the touch up. You can hardly see the little shiny dot from the ground. For colored panels, I just prepaint the fasteners using background color, though they still may need a touch of paint after you hit it with a hammer. If you're worried about removing them later, they are really not difficult to remove. And you can get a version with a Philips head that is even easier to remove —you drive it in and then screw it back out with a cordless when you need to.
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Could you install ACM panels with construction adhesive alone? I know some people do it, but I don't trust it, especially on large panels. And for many people, the term "construction adhesive" means a glue that dries very hard, such as Liquid Nails. A hard glue allows no room for movement. At least with a soft adhesive like silicone there is some give for temperature changes. But I still prefer a mechanical fastener.
.........
Tapcon letdown
I have always been disappointed in the Tapcon brand concrete screw. I've seen them rust too quickly so many times, even with touchup paint. And the idea of needing special bits for a screw? Couldn't they just engineer the dang things from the other direction? (Build the screw to fit the bit, instead of the other way around). Is Tapcon in cahoots with the drill bit industry?
Long ago I determined never to use Tapcons if they were to be exposed. The galvanized Hilti brand concrete screw is a better product than a Tapcon in this regard, though it costs more. It has a heavy coating that really helps, but they still eventually rust through. The Hilti thread pattern seems to cut brick better, too. And you can use standard size bits!
-------------------- Brad Ferguson See More Signs 7931 Wornall Rd Kansas City, MO 64111 signbrad@yahoo.com 816-739-7316 Posts: 1230 | From: Kansas City, MO, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Dale, If it were out in the open I would do that but this is downtown on the corner of a busy intersection and there is a sidewalk beside the building. I doubt the city would approve of that. But good idea anyway.
-------------------- Rob Lenz Lenz Signs 402 Elm St. Osage, Iowa 50461 Posts: 134 | From: Osage, Iowa | Registered: May 2002
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I've always used those nylon hammer-in ones Brad pictured. In our weather here, I've had to break the plastic wahser head with a hammer and screwdriver 8 years later to get them out if you dent the screwdriver slot too much when installing them. I've not had one fail on me...
It's overkill, but we put one in each corner of an 8x4 alupanel, then one in the middle top and middle bottom, then one in each remaining gap top and bottom - so 10 per panel.
-------------------- "Stewey" on chat
"...there are no limits when you aim for perfection..." Jonathan Livingston Seagull Posts: 7014 | From: Highgrove via Toowoomba, Queensland, Australia | Registered: Dec 2002
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