posted
I installed a 26x70" sandblasted cedar sign on a wall about ten months ago. It has warped badly, started to pull the bolts out of the wall and split in half horizontally. I told the customer I will repair it. But how? We have not removed it yet.
I would like to post a photo but don't know how.
The fabricator of the panel has not yet replied to my requests for their input.
I'm thinking maybe saw some slits across the back to make it more flexible and mount it to a piece of 3/4" MDO. Or, run some angle iron up each end but that may not look as good.
posted
If it is warped so bad that it is pulling the bolts out I don't think there will be a way to fix it. Pulling it flat is probably going to crack it. Without seeing pictures and the fact that is only 10 months old it should probably be replaced.
-------------------- Eric PA Posts: 149 | From: Intercourse, PA | Registered: Jun 2004
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You can e-mail me the pic's and I can post them for you Chuck.
dave.grundy@hotmail.com
-------------------- Dave Grundy retired in Chelem,Yucatan,Mexico/Hensall,Ontario,Canada 1-519-262-3651 Canada 011-52-1-999-102-2923 Mexico cell 1-226-785-8957 Canada/Mexico home
-------------------- Dave Grundy retired in Chelem,Yucatan,Mexico/Hensall,Ontario,Canada 1-519-262-3651 Canada 011-52-1-999-102-2923 Mexico cell 1-226-785-8957 Canada/Mexico home
posted
IF you fix it you could drill the holes oversize so it could expand and contract or just use 1 fastener on each end so it can move. It would still warp but not break. I'm guessing most of the warping is from the flat grain wood used. I don't think you will ever get it flat. Anything you do to get it flat will make it too rigid and you're back were you started.
-------------------- Eric PA Posts: 149 | From: Intercourse, PA | Registered: Jun 2004
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Eric, do you think sawing horizontal cuts across the back not deep enough to go through would take the stress out so I could screw it flat against a panel? Maybe every 2 inches.
-------------------- Chuck Peterson Designs San Diego, CA Posts: 1050 | From: San Diego, CA USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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There are a few issues which I see. Firstly the wood is not cut and glued to be end grain but rather used flat grain. With the boards tight against the wall they would tend to be moist on that side and dry on the other. Cupping as they did is the result. The fact that the sign is painted dark colors would add to this problem.
Another question I would have is if there are the same number of coats of paint on the back as the front. Paint can pull things quite a bit if it isn't.
Wood likes to move especially if it is subjected to these kinds of forces for the reasons above.
We do nothing but dimensional signs in our shop but haven't used wood since the mid eighties because it just isn't stable enough to last.
-grampa dan
-------------------- Dan Sawatzky Imagination Corporation Yarrow, British Columbia dan@imaginationcorporation.com http://www.imaginationcorporation.com
Being a grampa is one of the the most wonderful things in the world!!! Posts: 8738 | From: Yarrow, B.C. Canada | Registered: Nov 1998
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You could cut the back but I think you would need a lot more than every 2 inches. But it's going to further weaken the wood and then it would need sealed and painted and the ends somehow hidden. I was going to mention the dark paint but I think that's secondary. You could fix the crack but you'll never get it flat. Personally I wouldn't mess with it hopefully the fabricator steps up.
-------------------- Eric PA Posts: 149 | From: Intercourse, PA | Registered: Jun 2004
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In my humble opinion, since Chuck used a "sub contractor fabricator", it is their responsibility to make things right.
If the client wanted a "flat slab wood" look, they should have used HDU and routed it to "look" like that.
Otherwise, they should have advised vertical grain wood glued up like Wayne described, and blasted it that way.
I very much doubt that this particular sign can be "repaired".
-------------------- Dave Grundy retired in Chelem,Yucatan,Mexico/Hensall,Ontario,Canada 1-519-262-3651 Canada 011-52-1-999-102-2923 Mexico cell 1-226-785-8957 Canada/Mexico home
posted
It's just not worth the effort to repair it. The fabricator clearly screwed up on this one and needs to correct it on his dime. Anyone that would glue up that panel with that grain orientation does not know what they're doing, or tried to get by on the cheap. Flat grain never works well for sandblasted signs in the first place even if you rip the boards down to 2 inches wide and flip every other board over to eliminate the warp because the grain will want to peel from the pointy areas. So even if you fix it, it will not last. I've even given up on vertical grain redwood. Just doesn't hold paint very well and it is getting very tough to get all heart redwood.
-------------------- Dave Sherby "Sandman" SherWood Sign & Graphic Design Crystal Falls, MI 49920 906-875-6201 sherwoodsign@sbcglobal.net Posts: 5396 | From: Crystal Falls, MI USA | Registered: Apr 1999
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Me too, Dave. HDU is less labor intensive, holds paint much better and longer, doesn't do any of the crazy stuff like splitting and checking, peeling etc....and...it saves the trees. I do have a stack of it out in the shop for those customers who must have it. One is a doctor's office which adds a new physician once every couple years.
-------------------- Wayne Webb Webb Signworks Chipley, FL 850.638.9329 wayne@webbsignworks.com Posts: 7403 | From: Chipley,Florida,United States | Registered: Oct 1999
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You are going to have a hard time believing me but they blasted the wrong side of that panel.
If you really want to try to save it, take it down and take it home. Then water your lawn late in the afternoon and put the sign (face down) on the lawn overnight. If it makes progress but doesn't get perfectly flat over night, leave it there in the sun (face down). If this works, plane the edges and glue it back up and blast the other side. When you re-mount it, stand it off the wall at least an inch with blocks.
All that said.......HDU is the way to go.
Joe,
Makin Chip$ and Havin Fun!
-------------------- Joe Cieslowski Connecticut Woodcarvers Gallery P.O.Box 368 East Canaan CT 06024 jcieslowski@snet.net 860-824-0883 Posts: 2345 | From: East Canaan CT 06024 | Registered: Nov 2001
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Thanks for all the input. This company has done at least 40 sandblasted, usually wood, signs for me over probably 16 years. This is the first time I've had this happen. I get it about the grain direction, I even noticed it slightly warped when I picked it up at their shop, but I figured it would be OK bolted to a wall.
We did the painting, 3 coats front and back.
I have still not heard back from them after 2 calls and 3 emails, I even sent them a link to this post. They are 80 miles from me.
I like outsourcing these days instead of doing all that labor, but you lose control over a lot of the details. I'd like to find a shop in the San Diego area that can do routed HDU for me with textured backgrounds like a lot of the stuff I see in SignCraft.
-------------------- Chuck Peterson Designs San Diego, CA Posts: 1050 | From: San Diego, CA USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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As far as someone near you with a router....John Arnott. As far a s that sign, if it were me, I'd get new wood and start over. Both boards are cupped the same direction. Rather than using 2x12's do it with 2x6's and alternate the grain. Look for where the center of the tree would be and have that facing up on alternating boards.
-------------------- The SignShop Mendocino, California
Making the simple complicated is commonplace; making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, that's creativity. — Charles Mingus Posts: 6712 | From: Mendocino, CA. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Wood is a natural material, so it just naturally warped. The person who made this should know that and should gladly replace the panel for you. And,,, if he don't, find another panel maker, replace the sign, quickly, so you don't look like a hack in front of your customer. Deal with the first panel maker later on,,,,,in a dark alley.
-------------------- Signs by Alicia Jennings (Mudflap Girl) Tacoma, WA Since 1987 Have Lipstick, will travel. Posts: 3812 | From: Tacoma, WA. U.S.A. | Registered: Dec 1999
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posted
It's interesting that you northern hemisphere call the grain flat or end.
We call boards 'back-sawn' when the growth rings are roughly parallel to the board width like this ===, and we call it 'quarter-sawn' when the piece is cut from the log in a radial way, so that the growth rings are ||||| to /////.
It's really difficult to find a conventional timber mill that'll do quarter-sawing for you, as they're set up for a standard approach that gets the most from a log, back-sawing the planks.
Even if you talk to the boss and he says 'Yes I'll do that', the message often does not get to the sawman on the bench, or the computer doing the cutting up.
I use quarter-sawn timber for waggon wheel felloes - it is the only cut that will hold up to the stresses the wheels have to tolerate.
But this sign- whew, what a cupping it has done! An alternative might be to accept the cupped shape, and make end pieces and new stand-offs to match the new concave banana-faced look, and tell them that's the latest in 3D features, to prove it's not flat and straight out of a computer.
Otherwise I'd be trying what Joes suggests: give the back side the same weather treatment with moisture and sun till it flattens itself back to some degree, then get a circular saw and kerf the back with lots of parallel cuts 1/8" wide along the length and about 3/4 of the panel thickness in depth. Then screw the ends to something stable, and then fill the grooves with caulk of some sort, paint the back as well as the front is painted, and remount it with greater airspace behind.
-------------------- "Stewey" on chat
"...there are no limits when you aim for perfection..." Jonathan Livingston Seagull Posts: 7014 | From: Highgrove via Toowoomba, Queensland, Australia | Registered: Dec 2002
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Yep...over the years I have glued up a few hundred wooden panels...nearly all were vertical grain clear heart redwood...beautiful wood...I agree with what some have suggested...the panel may or may not have been glued up properly...anyone doing glue ups should know to alternate the grain direction of the boards...you will be able to determine if such is the case by visually inspecting the ends for grain direction...they should alternate as several have stated...I never liked flat grain anyway...not stable enough...lots of movement...verticle grain much much more stable...also if I'm doing a single sided wood sign...just to be safe...I will back with something stronger and more rigid than the internal forces in the wood that could cause warp or curl...on this sign I would have used 2 treated 2x4's placed vertical on the back side a few inches in from both ends...enough so they would be hidden from sight...also would have put 1 more dead center up and down the back.
Saving this sign would be tough but not impossible...I have done pretty much what has already been suggested and saved a sign or 2 before I wised up ...first it is amazing just how much cupping you can get out of a board by laying it face down in the sun...some kerfing on the backside can also help significantly...if it straightens up enough you can then address the glue up...looks like it might still have a little hinge on the back side of the split...if the panel straightens up enough you will next need to pry open the split with a couple of chisels and apply a liberal coat of glue and then of course plenty of good alternating clamp pressure...next glue and screw 2x4 braces across the back...lags will work best here because the broad thread will be less likely to strip out in the wood...carefully pull the remainder of cupping out as you tighten the lags down to the braces...if I lag from the back I countersink a hole in the 2x4 brace so that no bolt heads stick out creating a problem in mounting...if I come through the front of the sign with the lag and washer I will be threading into my 2x4 brace on the back and have more pull down power without stripping out in the wood...sometimes these lags will fit ok in your background and can be left in and painted...or one can remove them from the face and fill the holes and paint...whatever works best for the particular job...I've always used gorilla glue...it has worked well for me and is easy to use and reasonably priced.
If the fabricator doesn't step and you are stuck with the problem I wish you the best of luck with the repair attempt...with some patience and a little skill it can be done.
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