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It appears to be like a low-gloss acrylic plastic. It looks like maybe vinyl was cut in reverse and applied to the back, then some kind of grey paint appears to have been brushed over that. Am I correct? Has anyone made anything like this? What kind of paint did you use?
-------------------- Wayne Webb Webb Signworks Chipley, FL 850.638.9329 wayne@webbsignworks.com Posts: 7403 | From: Chipley,Florida,United States | Registered: Oct 1999
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Majority of basic wayfinding signs are done this way. Remember, they also have ADA codes they are required to follow.
For color matching, I call out Matthews, I've also used one-shot, Krylon (very carefully) or any other paint that will adhere to plastic. if the lettering has to match, I'll call out screen print or mask and paint, then backspray the color. Then I always cover the back with vinyl, that way when you attach to the wall, the paint/lettering can't lift where you tape it to the wall.
-------------------- Rick Chavez Hemet, CA Posts: 1538 | From: Hemet,CA U.S.A. | Registered: Jun 2001
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We do a ton of this kind of sign. We use 3mm Acrylite P99 Non-glare clear acrylic. If it is a large quantity of an image, we would screen print it on the 2nd surface. If it is a small quantity, but a lot of text or detail, we digitally print it reverse on clear vinyl and apply it to the 2nd surface (glossy side). If it is simple, we do vinyl cut letters on the 2nd surface. After the image is applied, we back spray with Grip Flex or speed enamel in the booth if there are a lot of them. If there are only a few and we can buy the right colour, Krylon works awesome. We always use a fast drying paint. When they are cured, we back them up with a solid vinyl close to the background colour. This gives some added protection during the installation process. The overspray on the edges, we remove by running through a router set up as a jointer. One hint, if you use red vinyl letters on the non- glare acrylic, an odd faint halo effect appears around the letters when viewed through the non-glare face. If this bothers you, you should use regular glare/glare clear acrylic. Let me know if this clears up your question, or if you need more information.
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ADA requires Non-Glare, my favorite being Non-Glare Mitsubishi Shinkolite.. many of my sign shop clients use Acrylite P-95 (P-99 would work as well)
You also have letter height requirements depending on viewing distances. You can find that in the Federal ADA or here...
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It's just one small sign, for a specialty wing of a hospital about 35 miles from here. I left my card with a receptionist on my visit to a dermatologist last year. They called to see if I could produce the sign so I'm just trying to get my foot in the door with this, so to speak.
-------------------- Wayne Webb Webb Signworks Chipley, FL 850.638.9329 wayne@webbsignworks.com Posts: 7403 | From: Chipley,Florida,United States | Registered: Oct 1999
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I was thinking about manufacturing these myself when a big order fell in my lap. I decided against it. With all the changing regulations on ADA signage, I just figured why not let the experts do it. Wholesale companies like eyecatchsigns.com have good pricing, they do the work while I'm doing something else, and the liability of getting it right is on them. My favorite product from them is to get the signs on a clear background with the braille molded right into the background (no dots to fall off) and the raised lettering already painted in the proper contrasting color. That leaves me to customize the back side in reverse with either paint or vinyl. Here's one I did using a very deep maroon scroll and then a slightly lighter background.
-------------------- Dave Sherby "Sandman" SherWood Sign & Graphic Design Crystal Falls, MI 49920 906-875-6201 sherwoodsign@sbcglobal.net Posts: 5396 | From: Crystal Falls, MI USA | Registered: Apr 1999
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quote:Originally posted by Dave Sherby: I was thinking about manufacturing these myself when a big order fell in my lap. I decided against it. With all the changing regulations on ADA signage, I just figured why not let the experts do it. Wholesale companies like eyecatchsigns.com have good pricing, they do the work while I'm doing something else, and the liability of getting it right is on them. My favorite product from them is to get the signs on a clear background with the braille molded right into the background (no dots to fall off) and the raised lettering already painted in the proper contrasting color. That leaves me to customize the back side in reverse with either paint or vinyl. Here's one I did using a very deep maroon scroll and then a slightly lighter background.
And this is why I warn fellow sign makers...
That sign you show is incorrect... the Braille is not Grade 2, I'm also thinking the spacing between characters is too close.
It looks nice, but is not code compliant.
You can get your foot in the door, or you can get shown the door... it's just as important to know WHY a code sign is made the way it is, as it is to know how it was made.
[ January 15, 2015, 03:49 PM: Message edited by: Rick Chavez ]
-------------------- Rick Chavez Hemet, CA Posts: 1538 | From: Hemet,CA U.S.A. | Registered: Jun 2001
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This was a sample made many years ago and it was fully compliant back when it was made. I know that the company I purchase from is compliant with current laws. I simply wanted to show how I do my own backgrounds. But you are right. To the average Joe, this sign looks fine. It is from at least 15 years ago and is simply a sample on my wall.
-------------------- Dave Sherby "Sandman" SherWood Sign & Graphic Design Crystal Falls, MI 49920 906-875-6201 sherwoodsign@sbcglobal.net Posts: 5396 | From: Crystal Falls, MI USA | Registered: Apr 1999
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quote:Originally posted by Dave Sherby: This was a sample made many years ago and it was fully compliant back when it was made. I know that the company I purchase from is compliant with current laws. I simply wanted to show how I do my own backgrounds. But you are right. To the average Joe, this sign looks fine. It is from at least 15 years ago and is simply a sample on my wall.
It's is my understanding that the ADA has required Grade 2 braille since it's recommendation on signage in 1991. That sign would not be compliant in 2000. That sign you show, and the signs on their site are riddled with issues, misspelled braille, poor tracking and placement issues... sign people really need to know... NEVER TRUST your vendor to know if you will be the one who is ultimately responsible.
-------------------- Rick Chavez Hemet, CA Posts: 1538 | From: Hemet,CA U.S.A. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Hey, I have some 600 and some 1000 grit automotive sandpaper I could chuck into my vibrating sander. Reckon it would work to dull down the front of a piece of gloss clear acrylic to do this little replacement sign, as long as it's uniform? Because it costs $159+ for a whole sheet. What do ya think?
-------------------- Wayne Webb Webb Signworks Chipley, FL 850.638.9329 wayne@webbsignworks.com Posts: 7403 | From: Chipley,Florida,United States | Registered: Oct 1999
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quote:Originally posted by Dave Sherby: This was a sample made many years ago and it was fully compliant back when it was made. I know that the company I purchase from is compliant with current laws. I simply wanted to show how I do my own backgrounds. But you are right. To the average Joe, this sign looks fine. It is from at least 15 years ago and is simply a sample on my wall.
It's is my understanding that the ADA has required Grade 2 braille since it's recommendation on signage in 1991. That sign would not be compliant in 2000. That sign you show, and the signs on their site are riddled with issues, misspelled braille, poor tracking and placement issues... sign people really need to know... NEVER TRUST your vendor to know if you will be the one who is ultimately responsible.
Just figured out that Eye Catcher Signs is a Canadian company. Canada allows the use of Grade 1 braille, the US does not. They also allow for upper and lower case and various braille placements. Your sign as a sample is to Canadian Standards, not the US.
-------------------- Rick Chavez Hemet, CA Posts: 1538 | From: Hemet,CA U.S.A. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Thanks for the heads up Rick. When I placed my last order everything was kosher. But the source I read said Grade 2 Braille was adopted by most countries between 2005 and 2008. I made the sample about 15 years ago, maybe longer. All I know for sure is I didn't make it last week and it is plenty good enough to show as a sample.
[ January 16, 2015, 06:03 PM: Message edited by: Dave Sherby ]
-------------------- Dave Sherby "Sandman" SherWood Sign & Graphic Design Crystal Falls, MI 49920 906-875-6201 sherwoodsign@sbcglobal.net Posts: 5396 | From: Crystal Falls, MI USA | Registered: Apr 1999
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there is a frosted panel called P95 we used to use for this sort of thing...clear on one side...apply letters cut in reverse, paint over that.....view from frosted front....easy classy clean
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Rick...the Eyecatcher signs Dave mentioned is in San Diego, CA. It comes up 1st in a Google search. Right under it I get a Google map to Eyecatcher Signs in Hamilton Ontario then their website. If you look at the two websites it is pretty obvious that the one in California is the Braille specialist.
-------------------- Chuck Churchill, It's A Good Sign Inc. 3245 Harvester Rd, U-12 Burlington, Ont. Phone: 905-681-8775 Fax: 905-681-8945 Posts: 633 | From: Burlington, Ontario, Canada | Registered: Nov 1998
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FWIW, I worked for the ISA representative to the Access Board, and also a consultant for our state accessibility board. I designed and translated braille, (Grade 2 as required in 1997) and was drilled into my head ADA requirements... I also have been tutored by the SEGD and AIA Rep on ADA. I learned back then, that "most" ADA sign fabricators are not specialist in ADA... just fabricating ADA signs. The client is the one responsible for non-compliant signs, the sign company hanging the sign would be the next on responsibility. In the US, Grade 2 braille was required, that would make one of the posters on this thread incorrect.
I did see the San Diego site but saw very little in ADA compared to the NS Eye Catcher. Being that it's so close to Michigan, and he referenced their website URL, and they service the US, I assumed it was the Canadian Eye Catcher. I am familiar with Eye Catcher in Nova Scotia more than the one 100 miles from me...
Oddly enough, the few braille signs the San Diego Eye Catcher show, one is "technically" incorrect, others show lower case letters... a no-no in the US... maybe they make signs for Canada. I don't know... maybe they are not specialist in code, only in making them. Again, I can't answer that.
I deal with this all the time, having to redo signs from other designers/sign shops or making sure large corporations are compliant to avoid lawsuits, or making sure they pass inspections when a CASP inspector shows up.
Again... my point is... know your ADA, If you are making it... you really need to know it. Don't trust your vendors, clients, designers or architects to be the specialists.
[ January 19, 2015, 03:22 AM: Message edited by: Rick Chavez ]
-------------------- Rick Chavez Hemet, CA Posts: 1538 | From: Hemet,CA U.S.A. | Registered: Jun 2001
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