posted
Sometimes I think I'm too passionate for my business. I absoutly love doing great layouts. I sit at the monitor and stare at my work trying to improve it. As I drive through different areas, I cringe at all of the really bad and useless signs that are out there. I wonder how a person's business could be better just with a better designed sign. But it's sometimes futile. If only I could get the people to understand how their bad sign if affecting not only their business, but the overall beauty of their town. I can only hope that one day the people will be able to see the difference. Until that time comes,,,,,,,,,,,,
-------------------- Signs by Alicia Jennings (Mudflap Girl) Tacoma, WA Since 1987 Have Lipstick, will travel. Posts: 3813 | From: Tacoma, WA. U.S.A. | Registered: Dec 1999
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Making the simple complicated is commonplace; making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, that's creativity. — Charles Mingus Posts: 6713 | From: Mendocino, CA. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
If I knew how, I could start a page featuring poorly designed signs. Maybe this would wake some people up after they saw their sign posted on it.
-------------------- Signs by Alicia Jennings (Mudflap Girl) Tacoma, WA Since 1987 Have Lipstick, will travel. Posts: 3813 | From: Tacoma, WA. U.S.A. | Registered: Dec 1999
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posted
I remember when "Signs of the Times" magazine had the Ugly Sign contest. It was a lot of fun but they had to stop publishing the contest for some reason or other - maybe someone got offended when they saw their sign in a national magazine ugly contest.
-------------------- Jean Shimp Shimp Sign & Design Co. Jacksonville Beach, Fl Posts: 1266 | From: Jacksonville Beach, Fl. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Wouldn't you be offended Jean? That is not the way to help people improve. (I am still worried some picture of my worst efforts will come back to haunt or shame me).
-------------------- Wright Signs Wyandotte, Michigan Posts: 2785 | From: Wyandotte, MI USA | Registered: Jan 1999
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-------------------- John Lennig / Big Top Sign Arts 5668 Ewart Street, Burnaby, British Columbia, Canada bigtopya@hotmail.com 604.451.0006 Posts: 2184 | From: Burnaby, British Columbia,Canada | Registered: Nov 2001
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posted
Alicia...passion is what it's all about...no need to apologize for having it...you have more passion in your little finger than most people could hope to have in a lifetime...maybe that's overstated a bit...but you get my point.
Ricardo...from some of the signs I've seen I think these people you speak of must have started in the trade back when they were in the 3rd grade.
Seriously though...like the song lyric goes..."just tryin to make a livin and doin the best I can"...I got to think everyone would like to put out work like Sawatzky if they could...sometimes mother nature can be kind...sometimes not so kind...we are not the ones responsible for our talents...it's merely a genetic predisposition that we possess...however it is up to us how we chose to develope them...that is where the "passion" comes in.
posted
In the sign making workshops we host each year I love to point out that I am NOT the most talented person making signs. When I was in school I envied how well some of my fellow students could draw and paint, seemingly effortlessly. I really had to work at it. And I did... still do! Now fifty years later those friends I admired way back then never went professional with their art. I did. I believe the difference was PASSION.
We are all born with talent. How much we get naturally varies. But our born talent is only the starting point. How far we get, how good we become is up to us. Passion will drive us to practice and build on those talents and take us to heights we can only imagine.
I get immense pleasure to see people coming into my workshop a little unsure of what they might be able to accomplish and leave knowing they can do pretty much anything they put their heart to. I love to light fires of passion and give folks some of the tools they will need to pull it off. The ones that succeed are not born with endless talent but rather those that work their buns off to achieve their goals and rise to the top of their field.
In my case I am now almost 60. I'm now doing the style and quality of work I dreamed of ten years ago. I look forward to what I might be able to do in another ten with a little more practice.
I've also learned to absolutely not sweat the less an perfect signs out there. I can only control what comes through my studio. And as I go along I can get fussier all the time about what that might be.
Imagine what is possible and then follow your passion to make it so.
-grampa dan
-------------------- Dan Sawatzky Imagination Corporation Yarrow, British Columbia dan@imaginationcorporation.com http://www.imaginationcorporation.com
Being a grampa is one of the the most wonderful things in the world!!! Posts: 8738 | From: Yarrow, B.C. Canada | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Quote:"Those signs that you see and make you cringe, were probably done by people like us........when we started in this trade, back in the days. "
Ricardo, I disagree, because thinking back to some of my amatuerish efforts 30+ years ago, there was still an element of significant effort and an attempt to do the right thing, and consider what needed to be considered. All via brushes... and before Mike Stevens' great layout book.
These days, ownership of a computer, and an ebay account searching a cheap chinese digital printing company turns any kid who think they know Word or Publisher into a clueless sign 'designer'. Passion and effort or a desire to get better seem to scarcely be part of the modern equation, except on very rare occasions.
I still see ghastly 'wraps' here, where 'design' as a subject to be considered, obviously left the planet before the PC was booted up...
'Effectiveness' of the signage, fails, very sadly.
-------------------- "Stewey" on chat
"...there are no limits when you aim for perfection..." Jonathan Livingston Seagull Posts: 7014 | From: Highgrove via Toowoomba, Queensland, Australia | Registered: Dec 2002
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posted
I've sold many a sign based on passion alone. When a customer sees how passionate we are about what we do, and how passionate we are about improving their image, they hop on board.
The more nice signs we make in an area, the more the demand.
Hard work beats talent, and talent never works as hard.
Passion and practice.
Great post Alicia.
Peace, Bob
-------------------- "The 3-4 minute mark of "Freewill" by Rush.
Bob Kaschak Artisan Sign And Design Peru New York Posts: 1873 | From: Upstate NY | Registered: Jul 2002
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posted
Alicia, think about writing an article in your newspaper all about what you just said. This would reach out to many business people and just might get them thinking your way. If it works, you may have more work than you can handle.
-------------------- Bill Riedel Riedel Sign Co., Inc. 15 Warren Street Little Ferry, N.J. 07643 billsr@riedelsignco.com Posts: 2953 | From: Little Ferry, New Jersey, USA | Registered: Feb 1999
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"If I knew how, I could start a page featuring poorly designed signs. Maybe this would wake some people up after they saw their sign posted on it."
I don't know if I'd single anyone out or make an example of them, but Bill is right...
You could write an article in your local paper and educate your clients/potential clients. Show them the differance between a simple sign and a better designed sign...
You could also give people "tips" like advising them to turn thier double sided signs every couple of years so both sides 'age' more equally and the sign lasts longer.
Or how a clear coat every now and then can bring a sign back to life without having to be replaced entirely.
The general public might appreciate your advice and realize how you can help them get the most out of thier signage.
You'd certainly raise awareness and educate people on a larger scale.
-------------------- Shirley Carron Black Sheep Designs 184 John St. N. Arnprior,On.,Canada shirleyc@magma.ca 613-623-7053 Posts: 503 | From: Arnprior, Ontario, Canada | Registered: Nov 2001
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It seems that, when I jumped into this topic and opened my big mouth, I only had in mind HAND PAINTED SIGNS ( also, pre-Mike Stevens ).......and, of course, my own personal experiences as an apprentice ( from over 45 years ago)......I guess that I, honestly, was not taking into consideration the audacity and crappy work of some of the new wave of self-proclaimed "Click and Drag Sign Artists", that have invaded this trade, without any previous knowledge of sign design and layout, and who have elected to call themselves "sign artists".....I, honestly, was not referring to them.....I was only referring to those who struggle to hand paint a sign, like I did many years ago.
I guess that this is the moment when I have to say, "I am sorry, for having misunderstood and, excuse me, but I don't want to play anymore"......I am too old for this.
posted
I'm gonna do it. I'm gonna do a letter in the editorial page of our local newspaper. I'll post a copy when I do it.
-------------------- Signs by Alicia Jennings (Mudflap Girl) Tacoma, WA Since 1987 Have Lipstick, will travel. Posts: 3813 | From: Tacoma, WA. U.S.A. | Registered: Dec 1999
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posted
If you dig back through some of my earlier posts, you will find this quote, That is an outstanding work of art, but as an advertising medium, it is a total flop. I recently saw a vehicle wrap, that was so crammed full of useless art, that you could not read the sign copy. I thought, what a waste of time and money. I pity the poor soul who had to pay the tab, it probably was high. I am going to start keeping my camera handy.
-------------------- Donald Miner ABCO Wholesale Neon 1168 Red Hill Creek Dobson, NC Posts: 842 | From: North Carolina | Registered: Apr 2006
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posted
I said I wasn't going to play anymore.....However, I, still, would like to add another thought to this topic.
Contrary to what some believe, here, I do not think that publishing photos of the so called "ugly signs" and, consequently, embarrassing the person who did the signs and the person who bought them, is such a great idea.
Since, mostly, we are dealing with proud adults with emotions, I really do not believe that the persons that you have offended or embarrassed, by pointing out their bad taste in signs or the wrong choice ( because of their own ignorance ) of acquiring an ugly sign, are going to be in the best disposition to do business with the person who embarrassed him or her.....Like I said: We are dealing with adults who are, supposedly, intelligent people who are running their own business....in any way they choose to do so.
Unfortunately, some of these people are blindly proud and brutally stubborn about the decisions that they make on how to handle their own business....So, you would have to respect that and be very careful with what you say or write to any of them.
I really believe that if we wish to improve the quality of the signage and, also, be able to sell our own signs, there are other less offensive and effective methods than embarrassing the maker and the buyer of the already existing signs.
One of these approaches, that comes to mind, could be...the modest and old reliable, personalized, flyer or, maybe, a personalized e-mail, with photos and/or a link to your photo gallery or website......or, maybe, just a couple of photos of signs that you have done for similar businesses... ( their competitors ), addressed to the decision maker, using his/her name and title, and telling him or her a little about the length of time that you have been doing signs.
Of course, you would have to do a little research, before sending a flyer or an e-mail to the targeted decision maker. Just to make sure that you are addressing it to the right person.
In order to obtain the name, title, phone number, e-mail address, or physical address, of the decision maker, I used to do this with a simple short walk-in-visit or a phone call, just to, only, collect the decision maker's information.
You would be surprised to know how much information can be obtained with a pleasant walk-in visit or a simple and, also, pleasant, phone call.
I really believe that we can accomplish our goal without embarrassing or offending the target.
Just my two cents.......Then, what do I know?....I am just a sign painter.
RD
P.S. ---- An old timer ( a sign painter ) asked me once: If you walk into a men's clothing store and the sales person approaches you and, bluntly, asks you:...."Where did you buy that ugly shirt, man?".....Would you buy a new shirt from that person?
posted
Hmmm... but sometimes my wife gives me a hair cut, and 6 -7 weeks or so later I instead sometimes visit a barber for a hair cut. Often enough the female barber or hairdresser or whatever she is called will say, "Who last cut your hair?"
That probasbly has the same sentiment, from their professional eye, as the subject we're discussing!
There is a fine line between being too polite & soft, and actually somehow (tactfully or not?) telling someone what they need to know too. There are times they really do need to know.
-------------------- "Stewey" on chat
"...there are no limits when you aim for perfection..." Jonathan Livingston Seagull Posts: 7014 | From: Highgrove via Toowoomba, Queensland, Australia | Registered: Dec 2002
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posted
I have designed some nice signs, giving the customer a choice between 2-3 layouts. Sometimes I wouldn't charge more for the nicer sign (because I wanted to get a nice sign out there), and they still pick the simple design they have in their mind. So those ugly signs arn't necessarily the result of the sign maker. The nice signs, I put my name on, the plain ones don't get my name on them. I once fired a potential customer because he wanted me to put a huge amount of text on a car magnetic sign. I did a layout for him with less words, more readable, better color scheeme. I explained to him how it would work better, he told me "I don't tell you how to run your business, you don't tell me how to rtun mine". I told him to go ask someone else to make it.
Diane
-------------------- Balch Signs 1045 Raymond Rd Malta, NY 12020 518 885-9899 signs@balchsigns.com http://www.balchsigns.com Posts: 1695 | From: MaltaNY | Registered: Jan 2000
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posted
If there wasn't the odd ugly woman wandering this planet, how would we recognize a beautiful woman when we saw one? I think the same thing goes for signs.......
Every time someone hangs some eye-puke, my signs across the road look that much better.
-------------------- Rodger MacMunn T.R. MacMunn & Sons C.P.207, Sharbot Lake, ON 613-279-1230 trmac@frontenac.net Posts: 472 | From: Sharbot Lake, Ontario | Registered: Nov 2003
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posted
It is what it is. Computers and vinyl opened the door to many thousands of hacks into the sign business. They were always around, but far fewer were willing to dip brushes in paint when they had no talent, skill or passion for the work.
Since the vast majority of sign customers are mostly interested in saving every dollar, the hacks have always owned this market, and now have the perfect tool. Considering how great a tool the computers have become for designing, there's an amazing irony there.
posted
Diane, many of the layouts in my portfolio are NOT the ones the customer chose. It amazes me some of the crap I've been forced to "design" for folks.
posted
There is simply no accounting for public taste. In my years of painting landscapes, I have always been amazed at which ones sell and which ones sit. I get someone pick out a painting from the batch and I am almost always amazed they choose the one I would never imagine.
Now signs? I painted a convenience/liquor store front in 1989 with a silly message. "Is it Beer O'Clock?". It was cute and certainly grabbed some eyeballs. Unfortunately they kept it up for 20 years, faded way beyond any reasonable degree of freshness. I tried several times to at least get them to recolor it, as I had to drive by it regularly. Every time I saw it, I cringed at how faded it was. Finally, they took it down and replaced it with some boring computer perf graphics that advertises 20 different labels of wines. Stupid. How many people are driving by at 40 mph and write down that special wine name or come in after seeing it in 2" copy on the windows? I always find it amazing how many stupid sign buyers there are out there.
-------------------- Preston McCall 112 Rim Road Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 text: 5056607370 Posts: 1552 | From: Santa Fe, New Mexico | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Deep subject for sure with many opinions. What works for one person might not necessarily work for another. Location also plays a big factor. When I entered the sign business in the early eighties it seemed like more than half the signs in the Memphis area were either done by Coca Cola or a man who was, lets say, a "painter of signs" . He worked extremely cheap and his work was well below sign shop quality. It was everywhere, however, and the "look" was somehow accepted. Trying to sell even a nicely done regular sign was a challenge when people were used to free or damn near free. It's what was the "norm". On the flip side there is a town down in the Mississippi delta where the sign work looks quite nice. I imagine due to the sign makers there all holding to a nice standard and thus the "norm" is nice. Strange, as the town itself is a horrible dump. Myself, I quit trying to sell what others didn't want. I found that although I had the skill to produce the signs, I lacked the personality to sell them.
-------------------- George Perkins Millington,TN. goatwell@bigriver.net
"I started out with nothing and still have most of it left"
posted
99.9% of my layouts, for the last 16 years or so, have been designed in the computer but I do try to keep copy to a minimum and as legible as possible. I used to see a lot of really bad signs with 'paragraphs' full of copy but not so much anymore. Several sign companies have come and gone since I started my business and the ones we have around here now, for the most part, design pretty well.
I don't "live and breathe" signs near as much as I used to but it's still more exciting to get to do a creative project now and then. I'm at one of those transition points in my life where the kids are in the process of leaving the nest and that seems to be my focus right now. I don't like it but, that's life.
-------------------- Wayne Webb Webb Signworks Chipley, FL 850.638.9329 wayne@webbsignworks.com Posts: 7403 | From: Chipley,Florida,United States | Registered: Oct 1999
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posted
Diane...I usually come up with 2 or 3 layouts for a job...but they are only for my consideration...in the end I'll only show the one I want to do...I don't offer a choice because in the area of design I trust my judgement more than I do the customer's...however...I do put alot of thought and time into that one design...probably more than many...I'll make my presentation rendering using Photoshop...I've become skilled enough with PS painting tools that my presentations can be pretty convincing...and a good presentation rendering of your design can really sell the job.
posted
Alicia, We simply must be able to show them the difference either by samples like Grandpa Dan does, A great portfolio in a website or blog and steller sketches/presentations as Rusty advocates. When they see it they know it.
It takes that passion to get you through the effort...I am still waiting for my ship to come in but I am enjoying the journey.
-------------------- Bob Sauls Sauls Signs & Designs Tallahassee, Fl
"Today I'll meet nice people and draw for them!" Posts: 765 | From: Tallahassee, Fl | Registered: Jun 2009
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posted
I, like many I am sure, just "lucked" into the signmaking business.
I admit that I did so with a computer and a vinyl cutter and it was always a way to earn a buck for me.
My first attempts were pretty horrible, since I had absolutely no idea about design. THEN I came across "Letterheads.com" now known as Letterville. That changed my attitude in a big way!!!
I went to North Tonnawanda to attend Bruce Bower's meet. My first of many. What an eyeopener THAT was!!!! A way to earn a buck AND enjoy what I was doing AND start to strive for the unattainable...The best sign I could ever produce!
Of course I never produced the best sign I could, but over the years and despite not wielding a brush, I believe, in my heart, that I did produce some very good work in the end.
Like most in the business, I still cringe at some signs I see and also admire signs that I could only dream of creating.
Most folks still grind out the bread and butter work and occasionaly get the chance to do a "portfolio" work of art.
I thank Letterville and everyone I have met for having helped me be a better designer and for having helped me to make a buck while I was at it!!!
Merry Christmas to all of you good folks!
-------------------- Dave Grundy retired in Chelem,Yucatan,Mexico/Hensall,Ontario,Canada 1-519-262-3651 Canada 011-52-1-999-102-2923 Mexico cell 1-226-785-8957 Canada/Mexico home
Great philosophy !.....Now, that,truly, defines passion, in my book.......Of course, if you are willing to pay the price, which, in his own words, is that he does not give a hoot about what others think or do. All he cares about is doing beautiful work and nothing else.
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