posted
I am looking to write up a proposal on replacing the sign below and have a couple of questions on the best substrates and procedures.
I would like to replace the MDO with Dibond or Omega-Bond. I am wondering how best to laminate the 2 sign faces together and have it be strong enough to withstand the bolt mounting system that is used presently.
I will be cutting the edges of the new DiBond faces to conform to the artwork so it will not be a simple square.
Do I need to build an inner frame structure or could I laminate the two DiBond Sheets over a more structurally sound material?
I am also wondering which composite aluminum panel you would recommend for this area of the country? Have you had better results with DiBond or Omega-Bond?
posted
You would best be served by building a stronger frame around the dibond than to trust that the simple doubling up would hold up. Dibond does fatigue easily around holes, I have clearly seen. Since dibond appears to be aluminum panels, I would use aluminum frame. Some C channel and weld the corners? Now considering the age of the wood frame that this is all going in, I might suggest simply replacing all of it with a similar looking 'lathe turned' frame made from quartersawn redwood and eliminate the hanging dibond concept, but replace it with a channel mounted dibond one, instead.
If the budget does not allow for the frame replacement, then perhaps an entirely new sign out of two layers of dibond with a 'painted to look like the lathe turned' frame and then screwed onto the obvious steel horizontal bars. The suspended look serves no purpose whatsoever and only allows for premature failure, compared to dibond. Might also suggest using aluminum screws for less electrolosis against the dibond, however there will be some on the steel frame over time from the aluminum screws. Me? I would sell them two new dibond faces and maybe leave the top and bottom curleycued wood pieces and overlay the dibond on top of the lathe turned verticles. Repaint the verticles in exterior white latex a few coats and it would last quite a while. My two cents worth, only. Good luck and hope it works out well for you.
-------------------- Preston McCall 112 Rim Road Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 text: 5056607370 Posts: 1552 | From: Santa Fe, New Mexico | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Dale, Are you planning on making this two-sided sign at least an inch thick? DiBond or Alupanel, etc. would work well with a 1" white aluminum tube frame and be strong and light weight. Without seeing the shape you are considering, you will definitely need to support it in the colonial looking frame at 4 places. Maybe some scrolls from those scroll brackets along the sides or top and bottom would be decorative and strong supports.
Just thinking out loud, but would love to see what design shape you are considering. Show us what you have in mind!
Sign-cerely curious, Steve
-------------------- Steve Luck Sign Magic Inc. 2718-b Grovelin Godfrey, Illinois 62035 (618)466-9120 signmagic@sbcglobal.net Posts: 870 | From: 2718-b Grovelin Godfrey, Illinois 62035 | Registered: Dec 2004
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posted
Dale, I would use 6mm Alupanel doubled. I usually use silicone to hold the panels together for something like you are doing all you really need to do is keep the panels from sliding around. The silicone will also seal the seam.
-------------------- Dennis Raap Raap Signs Posts: 839 | From: Coopersville, MI | Registered: Feb 2003
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posted
What about using aluminum faced plywood like Lustreboard or Omega Signboard. That way the laminating has been done for you all you have to do is cut it out. You don't hear a whole lot about these products - I wonder why?
-------------------- “Did you ever stop to think, and forget to start again?” -Winnie the Pooh & A.A. Milne
Kelly Thorson Kel-T-Grafix 801 Main St. Holdfast, SK S0G 2H0 ktg@sasktel.net Posts: 5496 | From: Penzance, Saskatchewan | Registered: May 2002
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posted
Kelly, We have used Lustreboard before and it has worked out great. It maybe a weight issue for a hanging sign, depending on the size. I think Dennis has the right idea using the thicker Alupanel. It cuts like butter with a jigsaw and will last a long time outdoors.
I would say we use Alupanel, DiBond, Poly Metal boards for 75% of our exterior signage and MDO for the rest. I guess we just don't talk about it but I love it. And it comes in colors too!
Sign-cerely, Steve
-------------------- Steve Luck Sign Magic Inc. 2718-b Grovelin Godfrey, Illinois 62035 (618)466-9120 signmagic@sbcglobal.net Posts: 870 | From: 2718-b Grovelin Godfrey, Illinois 62035 | Registered: Dec 2004
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posted
First off I would cautious to use any of the exhisting mounting hardware. And I am concerned with the "chain" that is supposed to give support to the bracket. The 2 side chains are mounted so far back as to not supply sufficient support in my opinion. Are the black horizontal pieces steel?
-------------------- Bob Rochon Creative Signworks Millbury, MA 508-865-7330
"Life is Like an Echo, what you put out, comes back to you." Posts: 5149 | From: Millbury, Mass. U.S. | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Personally, I would ditch the wood stuff. You know how our weather is here! And the existing hanging hardware for the floating panel.
I would use a 1/2" (10mm?) alumalite panel with silicone in the honeycomb down each side to seal shut.
Then, I would use 1" aluminum angle fit to one side of the existing framework all around(after the 4th side is welded in with the missing bar).Install the flat side to the inside of the sign (vs having the angle face into the sign. Paint it black to match, screw to existing frame (weld on adhesive as well-we always double fasten.
Finally fasten the sign into place by placing it against the flat side of the angle, and repeating the angle holding mechanism on the opposite face...
Maybe a picture? I have it blown apart so you can see each piece....
Does that help? Light weight, but sturdy and relatively easy to assemble. Held in place by angle on both sides, all around. Angle mounting
-------------------- Nikki Goral Image Advantage Signs 4050 Champeau Road New Franken, WI 54229 920-465-4500 "Finish every day and be done with it. Tomorrow is a new day."-Ralph Waldo Emerson Posts: 928 | From: New Franken, WI (East Green Bay) | Registered: Jun 2007
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posted
I'm still working on the Fonts for this sign but I wanted to post the cut-out shape I have in Mind.
Anyone having any success working with the Lusterboard as Kelly suggested above? Do you think it would be fairly easy to cut the Nouveau shape out of it with a jig saw?
posted
Dale, if it's an option I would scrap all the colonial cut out wood from the frame and add some metal scrollwork above and below the steel arms that hold the sign. The shape should be no problem cutting out with a jig saw. Good luck, looks like a good start to the design.
-------------------- Lou Pascuzzi www.economysigns.com Fine Hand Lettering since 1973 Danbury, Ct 203-748-4580 "IOAFS" Posts: 341 | From: Danbury, Ct | Registered: Feb 2000
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posted
I would think the lusterboard would cut easily with a good blade as long as it is fairly stiff. It shouldn't be any different than cutting out plywood. I highly recommend this unit for smoothing and refining! It's my #1 favorite tool!
-------------------- “Did you ever stop to think, and forget to start again?” -Winnie the Pooh & A.A. Milne
Kelly Thorson Kel-T-Grafix 801 Main St. Holdfast, SK S0G 2H0 ktg@sasktel.net Posts: 5496 | From: Penzance, Saskatchewan | Registered: May 2002
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posted
Whatever you do, ditch the old frame. It's needs a bolder frame made outta of a big old four poster bed.
-------------------- Signs by Alicia Jennings (Mudflap Girl) Tacoma, WA Since 1987 Have Lipstick, will travel. Posts: 3813 | From: Tacoma, WA. U.S.A. | Registered: Dec 1999
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posted
Hiya Dale, I definitely like where the design is going. My initial thought was the same as Bob's. So, why put all that effort into the sign when there is a chance the frame will fail? Beyond that, I would lean towards either a square tube aluminum frame as Steve L initially suggested or thick exterior PVC, which I'm really starting to like and use a lot more of lately.
Havin' fun,
Checkers
-------------------- a.k.a. Brian Born www.CheckersCustom.com Harrisburg, Pa Work Smart, Play Hard Posts: 3775 | From: Harrisburg, Pa. U.S.A. | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Kelly, I like the looks of the tool you posted. What brand is that?
-------------------- Brian Oliver Paxton Signs Fort Collins, CO paxton@peakpeak.com www.paxtonsignsofcolorado.com Posts: 237 | From: ft. collins, colorado,usa | Registered: Mar 2001
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posted
It's a Black and Decker 1/2" precision belt sander. It makes quick work of shaping wood & HDU, cleaning off AC burrs, knocking off edges and sharpening inside corners on wood, concrete, tile, glass (work gently in short bursts on glass so it doesn't get too hot). It eats fast you you need a light hand. On a job like Dale's it is great for sharpening up those inside corners as long as they are >90 degrees, and smoothing out the curves. I use it in one way or another on most of my projects.
-------------------- “Did you ever stop to think, and forget to start again?” -Winnie the Pooh & A.A. Milne
Kelly Thorson Kel-T-Grafix 801 Main St. Holdfast, SK S0G 2H0 ktg@sasktel.net Posts: 5496 | From: Penzance, Saskatchewan | Registered: May 2002
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posted
I would not use lusterboard. i have had less than stellar results using it especially if you are going to use a cut out shape.
Dibond is what i would use. I would also use grommets in the holes for the mounting points.
Design wise, I don't like your border. The "Mucha" style girl is awesome but the border looks very weak in comparison with the girl.
-------------------- Bruce Bowers
DrCAS Custom Lettering and Design Saint Cloud, Minnesota
"Things work out best for the people who make the best of the way things work out." - Art Linkletter Posts: 6451 | From: Saint Cloud, Minnesota | Registered: Jun 1999
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posted
To me the border works really well. I like the way it works with the lines of the girls hair and foot on the other side. I guess it comes down to different tastes.
Did you have trouble with the lusterboard deteriorating Bruce, or just difficulties in getting the finish you wanted?
-------------------- “Did you ever stop to think, and forget to start again?” -Winnie the Pooh & A.A. Milne
Kelly Thorson Kel-T-Grafix 801 Main St. Holdfast, SK S0G 2H0 ktg@sasktel.net Posts: 5496 | From: Penzance, Saskatchewan | Registered: May 2002
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posted
I am with the others as to removing the wood but that aside.. I would use some Twisted metal Balusters or Hammers Metal Tubing And build a Subframe that your Sign would attach to Making the Metal supports an integral part of the design and weld them to the existing sign support getting rid of that whole chain setup.
Just a quick Sketch. This Shape Sucks but you get the Idea.
posted
The Lusterboard aluminum de-laminated from the plywood core. Once the faces de-laminate the core rots and fails quickly.
FWI... Cutting an edge to shape, not sealing the edge with cap, and not painting the edge as well voids the warranty. I found this out the hard way when the 24 sheets we used for cut out letters failed in less than two years and Laminators, Inc. refused to honor the warranty. Fortunately, our supplier thought that Laminators' position was crap and offered a bit of a credit towards purchase of other material.
I still think the border sucks. I find it to be distracting from the marvelous girl figure. The corner do-dads look crude and gaudy. I always thought that borders were an extreme weakness of the art nouveau style.
-------------------- Bruce Bowers
DrCAS Custom Lettering and Design Saint Cloud, Minnesota
"Things work out best for the people who make the best of the way things work out." - Art Linkletter Posts: 6451 | From: Saint Cloud, Minnesota | Registered: Jun 1999
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quote:Originally posted by Bruce Bowers: The Lusterboard aluminum de-laminated from the plywood core. Once the faces de-laminate the core rots and fails quickly.
FWI... Cutting an edge to shape, not sealing the edge with cap, and not painting the edge as well voids the warranty. I found this out the hard way when the 24 sheets we used for cut out letters failed in less than two years and Laminators, Inc. refused to honor the warranty. Fortunately, our supplier thought that Laminators' position was crap and offered a bit of a credit towards purchase of other material.
Ugh! That would suck big time. Thanks for the info.
-------------------- “Did you ever stop to think, and forget to start again?” -Winnie the Pooh & A.A. Milne
Kelly Thorson Kel-T-Grafix 801 Main St. Holdfast, SK S0G 2H0 ktg@sasktel.net Posts: 5496 | From: Penzance, Saskatchewan | Registered: May 2002
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posted
We are going ahead with this project....I will post some pics later on today...
Does anyone have any feedback on Dibond vs. Omega-Bond aluminum composite panels? There is quite a bit of a price difference so I am wondering if that is a reflection of quality, and longevity?
posted
Call the guys here...it's faster than typing it all out. DO NOT use Lusterboard....trust me on that.
-------------------- Jane Diaz Diaz Sign Art 628 W. Lincoln Ave. Pontiac, Il. 61764 815-844-7024 www.diazsignart.com Posts: 4102 | From: Pontiac, IL USA | Registered: Feb 1999
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posted
Kelly's sander reminded me that I've been wanting one of those for a while. Unfortunately, a pretty thorough search revealed that apparently Black and Decker has stopped making that sander. It's not available anywhere. The one Si posted, and an electric version is available at Harbor Freight Tools. Air version is $25.00 and the electric version is $30.00. Then there's the Proxon version at Klingspor for $140.00.
-------------------- Dave Sherby "Sandman" SherWood Sign & Graphic Design Crystal Falls, MI 49920 906-875-6201 sherwoodsign@sbcglobal.net Posts: 5396 | From: Crystal Falls, MI USA | Registered: Apr 1999
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