posted
Hello, I'm from the government and I'm here to help you........
quote:One recent day, the planning board representative instructed me to confer with the building inspector-sign administrator for signage guidance. He was a nice man, loquacious and full of information. We went over the forms. He peered into his computer screen and asked about the previous occupant of my restaurant's location, the Wild Rose, a music bar that, in its last few years, rented the space to Boutique, a vodka bar for models and trust-funders.
''Wild Rose never demolished its sign,'' said the administrator.
''It's long gone,'' I said. ''Promise.''
''Says here that it still exists.''
''It hasn't been there for five years,'' I said.
''The Wild Rose never applied for a permit to demolish the sign, so the sign is still there.''
''There was a Boutique sign for two years after the Wild Rose sign was removed and that too was demolished. I know. I demolished everything I could with my demolition permit.''
''Not according to the records,'' he said, looking at his computer screen.
''Do we deal in reality or in bureaucratic hyperspace?'' I asked.
Fully grasping the surreal nature of the contretemps, he smiled and said, ''Reality is this screen. You have to apply for a sign demolition permit before you can apply for a new sign permit. There's no fee.''
No fee? Imagine: a permit to remove something that is not there has no charge. If Kafka had a permit to roll over in his grave, he would lie still out of spite. You can't fight City Hall. You simply depart with a fistful of applications and a bellyful of bile.
posted
Glenn...chill out...you're anti-government rage is showing again...although there are valid points to extrapolate from the article...for the sake of balance I would like to add that I am the very proud father of 2 sons who work for the government...2 people you might refer to negatively as govt. "bureaucrats"...one works for Homeland Security helping to keep us safe from the crazy terrorists...and the other works for the State of Tenn. Child Support Division...making sure that deadbeat moms and dads meet responsiblities to their children.
posted
....he pats himself on the back for defending bureaucratic stupidity!
Rusty, if you want to defend mindless bureaucratic nonsense because you have two sons who work for the government.....well....I'll just leave it at that.
posted
Glenn...based on what I wrote that's an interesting conclusion you came to...others might see it differently...maybe your zealotry has skewed your objectivity.
posted
Rusty, I got the article from a post by Signs of the Times magazine. Are you labeling them as zealots with skewed objectivity as well and worshipers of Timothy McVeigh?
Maybe some of us just find the current level of governmental bureaucratic stupidity unacceptable regardless of who works there; and, understand the necessity of the citizenry to stand up and speak out against it.
But if your defense of it is that your two sons work for the government, be my guest.
posted
I don't think any of this had anything to do with being anti-government, just anti- bureaucracy- or having stupid forms and procedures that make no sense to anyone else with even average intelligence...
It took us 4 years to get 2 of our kids adopted (from child services)- some of the stuff they had to know about us was very important and we were more than happy to provide the government agencies with more info on us than most people care to disclose-- but it was very ironic that we were required to provide nearly twice as much information on our little house dog and her shot history... just because a bunch of forms and procedures said so.
The redtape and stupid procedures that we had to go thru over the most trivial things were mind numbing- yet seemingly important issues were almost ignored completely...
When I was looking at building a shop building on my property- I would have to have a dozen or so permits to build a 12'x30' shop, but since I ended up with a 14'x32' building, there were no permits required at all- because they couldn't find those dimensions in their computer, to tell what type of permits to get...
-------------------- Michael Clanton Clanton Graphics/ Blackberry 19 Studio 1933 Blackberry Conway AR 72034 501-505-6794 clantongraphics@yahoo.com Posts: 1735 | From: Conway Arkansas | Registered: Oct 2001
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Glenn...wish you wouldn't accuse me of defending a position that you chose to define for me...
my quote ______________________________________ "...although there are valid points to extrapolate from the article...for the sake of balance I would like to add..." ______________________________________
that seems like a reasonable position...where you get the idea that I am defending mindless governmental nonsense from what I have written remains a mystery to me...I think your enthusiasm for a squabble has the best of you.
quote:Glenn...chill out...you're anti-government rage is showing again...
All I did was post an excerpt from an article referenced by a sign trade related magazine and I'm "raging"? Really? I'm "raging"?
And I'm the one with "enthusiasm for a squabble"?
And then you defend...er...show balance by stating you have two sons working for the government rather than actually "extrapolating some valid points" from the article.
But then its "wish you wouldn't accuse me of defending a position that you chose to define for me".
Sorry but you put yourself in that position and you've got no one else to blame.
You really need to step back and read what I posted before reacting half-cocked.
David and Michael got the point of the article, Rusty. Why didn't you?
posted
as an unbiased observer....GLENN, And I'm the one with "enthusiasm for a squabble"? this is a good description of you!!hahahahahahaha myown runins with bureaucracy have been just as humorous. while living in sarasota, lady came to my house and told me i had to cease and desist working out of my house making signs. i explained and showed her the van i had with all the paint, brushes and other needed items......THAT I PAINTED ON OTHER PEOPLES PROPERTIES........and also if i didnt work i would go down and apply for welfare because of their telling me to stop working. she left and i never heard from them again. building my shop here in pensacola. permit office tells me i cant build a shop on my property ....NO BIGGER THEN 1/2 THE SQ FT OF THE EXISTING HOUSE. now this is stupid, as i have 2 acres of land. so that put me at 920 sq ft. so iasked them how high can i build on that 920 sq ft. "oh you can do 3 stories before you need a height permit."!!!!! so instead of getting a 8-10 ft tall building, i went 16 ft tall!!!!! amazing aint it. the best one was the health board permit. while building the shop i had to get a clearance from the county health board. $75.00 for them to locate my septic tank. they wanted to be sure i wasnt stupid enough to put my building over my septic tank. i took a survey down to their office, showed them the relation between where the building was goning to be built and my spetic tank. NO, we need to come out and locate it, please give the secretary a $75 check. i did. 3-4 days later this guy shows up at my door. hes got an I.D. card from them, and says hes here to locate the septic tank. i said OK, AND SHUT THE DOOR. he again knocks on the door. he say can you show me where your septic tank is? i said GIVE ME $75 AND I WILL, other then that GO FIND IT AND EARN YOUR MONEY!!!!! IDIOTS.
[ September 29, 2011, 05:09 PM: Message edited by: old paint ]
-------------------- joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-637-1519 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
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These stupid rules seem to crop up worldwide. Ten years ago i applied to my local council for permission to extend our house upwards into a two storey job. Council people came out, inspected our property and some weeks later turned us down for planning. When i queried it, they explained the septic tank was in an incorrect position and would have to be relocated. I said fine, we wont bother and well leave everything as it is. Council inspector then decided he might as well grant the permission as we were already living there anyway
-------------------- Kevin Gaffney Artistik Signs Kinnegad County Westmeath Ireland 044-75187 kevingaffney@eircom.net Posts: 628 | From: Ireland | Registered: Oct 2003
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Glenn...you're a brillant guy and a talented sign maker but way to contentious and confrontational for me...my mistake to engage you in the first place...it's a no win situation and a negative experience...guess I'll get back to making wondrous works of art for the betterment of mankind...
posted
Glenn said ________________________________________________ "I'm not contentious and confrontational at all..." _________________________________________________ We should take a Letterville opinion poll.
posted
I'm not contentious and confrontational at all. hahahahahahahahahahaha
-------------------- joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-637-1519 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
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Thirty years ago, the town I live in decided that sign permit applications had to show an inventory of all signs within 500' of the proposed sign, even though the ordinance had nothing about spacing or proximity to other signs. After trying to comply with that on an application or two, I quit providing the info and no one noticed (or, more likely--cared).
A couple years ago, we pulled permits in Houston for rehabbing existing legal signs. One of the requirements was that a certain company had to do research for easements, etc. Their work cost hundreds of dollars for each permit and generated another few hundred pages of paperwork for each one. I know that no one even looked at the report and it was probably identical to the one that was already in the city files. I think I could have stapled a cover sheet to a half ream of blank paper and they would have approved the permit. By the time I jumped through all the hoops and paid consultants and engineers to reproduce what the city already had, my final cost for those permits in Houston was about a grand each. I was born in Houston but sure don't enjoy doing business there.
-------------------- David Harding A Sign of Excellence Carrollton, TX Posts: 5084 | From: Carrollton, TX, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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It wasn't too long ago the city manager tried to push through a 240% permit fee hike. The result was that the permit ended up costing more than the sign.
I couldn't get any help on the matter from the City Council until I got a call from one of the members wanting a quote on a sign for his business.
posted
I'm not a huge fan of excessive bureaucracy, on the other hand I'm not a huge fan of flying by the seat of one's pants either. I prefer somewhere in the middle. Bureaucracy is simply an attempt to organize a group. Nothing wrong with that until the rules get so overbearing that pros of getting organized no longer out weigh the cons.
The problem I have with some people who are the most vocal when complaining about bureaucracy is they tend to be the worst offenders when they are placed in the position to make the rules. At least that is what I have experienced. In other words, they love telling others what to do, but hate it when someone dares do it to them.
And you would be lying to yourself if you think only our government can be blamed for excessive bureaucracy. Private enterprise and even nonprofit organizations are just as guilty and likely to over burden themselves with bureaucracy.
For example, and my attempt to bring this topic back to sign making, we needed to fill out an 11 page form just to bid on a job for a private company. A form that asked a crazy amount of unnecessary questions.
I guess my point is this. There is no escaping bureaucracy. It's just a part of who we are. A product of different minded individuals trying hard to work together. To much of it is a bad thing, but we can say that about almost anything. Except my mom's homemade apple crisp. There can never be too much of that.
[ September 29, 2011, 06:19 PM: Message edited by: Joseph Diaz ]
-------------------- Joe Diaz Diaz Sign Art 628 W. Lincoln Ave. Pontiac, IL 61764 www.diazsignart.com Posts: 538 | From: Pontiac, IL | Registered: Aug 2005
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Joe, The reason for the excessive questions is for insurance more than likely. The reason for the insurance rules are lawyers. Who end up in office perpetuating/creating more rules for their brethren.
Rusty haven't been on this board enough to Know about Glenn and his enthusiasms. But from the few encounters I've had (and enjoyed i might add) with you..... Seems we're all only 2 degrees of separation from haters and grand inquistors. You really should hold your best hand until later when the debate is more heated. "Good morning Rusty" What do you mean by that you moralist! Just saying.
-------------------- Bob Sauls Sauls Signs & Designs Tallahassee, Fl
"Today I'll meet nice people and draw for them!" Posts: 765 | From: Tallahassee, Fl | Registered: Jun 2009
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One example of someone reining in bureaucracy was related to me by an employee some years ago. Before working here, he worked in quality control at a major oil field equipment manufacturer. Parts machined within a certain tolerance were automatically accepted, there was another range where the engineers had to check them and sign off on them, and if they were out of that range, the parts were rejected and consigned to the scrap heap.
The parts in the intermediate range always got approved by the engineers after examination and that was the status of things for a long time. Finally, someone had a bright idea and in a meeting asked why the engineers' time was being wasted and their work interrupted to check and sign off on parts within that tolerance. Since the engineers always signed off on them, why didn't they just change the specs? For once, reason prevailed over bureaucracy and the requirements were adjusted and productivity went up.
-------------------- David Harding A Sign of Excellence Carrollton, TX Posts: 5084 | From: Carrollton, TX, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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My "contretemps" (my new word for the day) toward excessive and often unnecessary bureaucracy are based on my own experiences in this business.
I have lost literally thousands of dollars because some civil servant was either too ignorant, too lazy, too incompetent or too full himself. I refuse to tolerate it or become a victim of it anymore.
One of my earlier experiences with bureaucratic stupidity was when we were contracted to pain a mural for an AMC/Jeep dealership. The client wanted a mural of a couple jeeps standing on top of a mountain top with the name of the dealership above it.
We acquired the permit which included a sketch of the mural complete with all of the necessary specifications.
We got the lettering done and began to work on the mural when an inspector showed up ordering us to stop. He pulled out his well worn copy of the town ordinance and said that if we did the lettering, we couldn't do the pictorial.
We showed him that we got the permit but he didn't care and that if we didn't stop he would call the police.
So we drove back to the inspections department office to discuss the matter with the person who issued the permit. It turns out that the inspector was right and the person who issued the permit didn't know his head from a hole in the ground.
Our solution......
We lettered the wall and invoiced the client for it. We went back the following week and painted the mural keeping the scene visually separated from the lettering instead of letting the lettering "rise up" from behind the mountain scene.
Low and behold, the same inspector gave his blessing. Murals don't need a permit.
About 12 years ago, we were contacted by another dealership about installing a rather large lighted sign. We contacted the inspections department and were told "no".
The client then called an "out-of-town" shop. They came in, installed the sign, got paid and left. The client then contacted a local electrician who then went to the inspections department and got a permit to run the electrical wire to the sign.
Needless to say, I was a little bit upset. I contacted the inspections department and registered a complaint. Their response was "oh well." They said that since the sign was installed by an out-of-town shop, it wasn't worth their while to pursue it.
One of the more recent adventures involved an installation of a lighted freestanding sign.
Again, we got the necessary permits. We staked off where the footing was to go and got the inspectors seal of approval.
So then we poured the footing and called for an inspection. The next inspector put a stop to the project. It turns out that the sign was in the city easement. A 30ft wide city easement.
I looked at him straight in the eye and told him I was putting the sign up. He threatened to call the police. I told him to please do because when he did, I was going to have a really big suit on his hands.
I pointed to all of the other signs on the street that had recently been installed by other sign shops. We were right in line with them.
I asked him if he really wanted to be the one to be responsible for requiring all of the other sign owners to move their signs back 5ft. when we file suit against the City. I also wanted to know who at the City was going to pay our bill for pouring new footings after we had already been granted a permit and the footing we dug had also been approved by his department.
Long story short, the sign went up.
So no, I don't put up with bullcr*p very well. No one should have to. And if standing up to it makes me "contentious and confrontational", oh well.
Noise Permits There are two (2) categories for noise permits, 1) construction noise, and 2) music and sound amplification. The application for the noise permit is received in the Construction & Inspection Permit Office, 301 King Street, Room 4130, to be entered into the Permit System. It is then routed to the Office of Environmental Quality for review and approval. After approval is given, the Construction & Inspection Permit Office is notified. The applicant is then notified that the permit is ready to be issued. Payment is made to the Construction & Inspection Permit Office where the permit is also issued. Questions related to the requirements and regulations for a noise permit are to be directed to the Office of Environmental Quality at 703-746-4065. Questions related to whether a noise permit is ready to be issued may be directed to the Construction & Inspection Permit Office at 703-746-4035. The permit fee for a construction noise permit is $50, and the fee for a music and sound amplification noise permit is $20.
posted
as usual,someone without something better to do internalizes a post made in generality here and with the usual its all about me swash of ego makes it all about themselves. For christ sakes,really? The only confrontation i see here is rusty going after glenn. Theres a decided difference between working for homeland security and a states child support division in an enforcement capacity and being a finger in the a** fool who works in city hall and must justify his professional existence by using stupidity,a computer screen and complete lack of logic,reasoning or just common sense and wouldnt dream of letting personal pride or ambition overstep the laziness which freezes them to the desk they sit at stealing oxygen,losing brain cells when they crap and stealing a paycheck on a weekly basis while hiding from the real world. Or wait...is there? the only "zealotry that has skewed objectivity" (make that a tshirt since youre bored,you may sell a few..catchy in a cornball psuedo intellectual way) in this post was you assuming for whatever contrived reason that he was talking about your two sons. Take a breath and dont take yourself so serious there bc unless youre the one in city hall he first mentioned,then "it aint about you"
-------------------- Gavin Chachere Plotter in the garage,New Orleans La.
"Sgts Shugart and Gordon again request permission to rope down to crash site two" Posts: 1223 | From: new orleans.la. | Registered: Mar 2000
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Im glad i dont work where some of you guys are operating. How do you get anything done in between applying for permits and talking to beurocrats
-------------------- Kevin Gaffney Artistik Signs Kinnegad County Westmeath Ireland 044-75187 kevingaffney@eircom.net Posts: 628 | From: Ireland | Registered: Oct 2003
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This is why I install smaller signs on the weekend, no sense in tapping the hornets nest with stick. A demolition license? I have never heard of such! Ill be sure to get as many of those as I do a sign permit.
I gotta agree with Glenn, it sucks! It sucks to deal with idiots that have no room for common sense. These are also the people that when they retire can't hardly make it out in the real world cause they actually have to make decisions based on common sense.
This travels thru the state, city, county employees as well. Don't care to help, no motivation, everything is a bother.
-------------------- You ever notice how easily accessible people are when they are requiring your services but once they get invoice you can't reach them anymore
quote:Originally posted by Kevin Gaffney: Im glad i dont work where some of you guys are operating. How do you get anything done in between applying for permits and talking to beurocrats
Land of the free, Kevin.
-------------------- Wright Signs Wyandotte, Michigan Posts: 2785 | From: Wyandotte, MI USA | Registered: Jan 1999
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As far as sign permits and stuff- our school wanted to put up some of the small coroplast yard signs with the wire stakes around town for an event they were having, but they wanted to make sure it was OK with the city- they were promptly denied permission.
They asked me to call and find out what they needed to do. The city claimed that nobody was allowed to do that, it was an eyesore. OK- fair enough reason. I have worked for sign companies in town and know they do hundreds and hundreds of these small temporary signs. I questioned them about the millions of political signs, hundreds of other event signs, garage sale signs, etc... the official said the only reason those were up is because nobody asked for their permission- but in our case, since we asked, they would send someone from the city around to take down all of our signs, because we were not issued a permit-
"so, are you gonna take down everybody else's signs because they don't have permits either?" "Oh, No- we don't have the manpower to send out to take down every yard sign- just the ones we KNOW don't have a permit." HAHAHAHA-
they eventually issued the school a $10 permit, so at least ours were legal... talk about "Don't Ask, Don't Tell!"
-------------------- Michael Clanton Clanton Graphics/ Blackberry 19 Studio 1933 Blackberry Conway AR 72034 501-505-6794 clantongraphics@yahoo.com Posts: 1735 | From: Conway Arkansas | Registered: Oct 2001
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Micheal those road side signs are illegal in my town unless it is the political season. no commercial. The inspector actually came around to all of the sign companies to make sure we understood they are illegal in the city. My philosophy is to remind the customer that they are illegal but offer to make them. i think the city sign inspector actually thought it was illegal to make and sell them because he said so.
-------------------- Bob Sauls Sauls Signs & Designs Tallahassee, Fl
"Today I'll meet nice people and draw for them!" Posts: 765 | From: Tallahassee, Fl | Registered: Jun 2009
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the funny thing is, they are not illegal here in our town- he had just never had anyone ask him for a permit or anything, so when the school tried to go thru the proper channels, he wanted to show his authority... It was just stupid that he wanted to take the schools down, because we asked for permission, but not anybody elses...
-------------------- Michael Clanton Clanton Graphics/ Blackberry 19 Studio 1933 Blackberry Conway AR 72034 501-505-6794 clantongraphics@yahoo.com Posts: 1735 | From: Conway Arkansas | Registered: Oct 2001
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OP - quit being so judgmental ))))) As I recall, that's what got us both banned from here a while back.
People are usually labeled as confrontational by those that don't agree with them.
If you conducted an opinion poll on Glenn, you may be surprised with the results: I've never met Glenn in person, but have talked to him several times - and he has been an extremely generous person; willing to share his knowledge in screen-printing processes with me, provide me with invaluable vender/ supplier recommendations, etc, etc.
I like Rusty too - we've had some excellent debates, but I continue to respect him and admire his talent. Think you went for the jugular on this one though, Rusty! hehe.
I'm generally against overly oppressive bureaucracies as well... the government thinks they have all the answers, when history shows they can't adhere to their own regulations.... and wouldn't know how to make a profit if profit was a dog and bit them on the behind.
However, if Eve would have been required to purchase a permit prior to picking apples - we'd all be better off. Or, maybe she would have just climbed the fence and picked one anyway like OP. (attempt at humor)
-------------------- Todd Gill Outside The Lines Potterville, MI Posts: 7792 | From: Potterville, MI | Registered: Dec 2001
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This story is exactly why it is sometimes better to not play by the rules. And, in Michael's case, it is sometimes a lot easier to ask for forgiveness than it is to get permission.
Gene Golden of Gettysburg Signs has been battling this stuff for years and, when dealing with the local HARB, it got so bad, he started a website to battle such shenanigans.
My story pales in comparison, but when I wanted to donate a hanging pole sign for our development (like many in our township), I contacted city officials about the details and I was quickly denied the permit because the placement was on the center island of the boulevard.
I was a little bent out of shape from the denial, knowing there are several, recently installed signs in the community that are placed on the center island of a boulevard. So, I contacted my council person.
A few days later, I was told to proceed with the sign. When it was completed, the city roads department even picked up the sign and installed it for me - saving me a couple of hours of work and the cost of materials.
Although it it took more effort than I cared for, you can sometimes win against city hall.
Havin' fun,
Checkers
-------------------- a.k.a. Brian Born www.CheckersCustom.com Harrisburg, Pa Work Smart, Play Hard Posts: 3775 | From: Harrisburg, Pa. U.S.A. | Registered: Nov 1998
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I think Rusty took Glenn's post as a hit on government workers rather than bureaucracy. Different deals. It happens in government and the private sector just as much. Im a goverment worker and i see garbage happen all the time. But it happened everywhere else i worked too. people just think that since they pay taxes, it shouldnt happen. The permits, rules, etc..... Suck. No doubt about it. Now imagine if they were all gone. No more permits and no more rules enforced when it came to signs or anything else for that matter. Ponder that for a second and imagine what things would quickly look like.
-------------------- Bruce Evans Crown Graphics Chino, CA graphics@westcoach.net Posts: 910 | From: Chino, CA | Registered: Nov 1998
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"Imagine what it would look like..." Probably like Las Vegas.... LOL
I remember when I worked a few summers for the City Government when going to college.... hahaha... Wow! What a cluster-hump of wasted tax dollars... I saw so much employee excess and abuse I could write a book. They could have easily gotten rid of 1/3 of all their employees.
The crew I was on....? We could get our daily work done in by 1 pm.... and sat under a tree sleeping the rest of the day.... or we'd go to the ice cream store and waste time slurping on Floats.
They could have easily made many of the positions part-time.... and gotten rid of us college kids altogether.
I remember the 1 1/2 hour 'morning breaks' where both sides of the street in front of a breakfast dive were lined with city vehicles - everyone ordering big breakfasts... drinking coffee and smoking their cigarettes.... same for lunch and for afternoon break.
I can understand people getting angry - why should they throw their hard-earned tax dollars away???
Obviously - not all gov't workers are like this - there are a lot of dedicated ones... but if the job position doesn't require a full-days work, what should the worker do? Guess they just do like I did - roll around town til punch-out time.
-------------------- Todd Gill Outside The Lines Potterville, MI Posts: 7792 | From: Potterville, MI | Registered: Dec 2001
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Todd's story reminds me of when one of my boys worked for the city during the summer before his senior year...he was a very talented basketball player with several colleges interested...he was constantly working out to improve his conditioning and bb skills...however before the summer was over he quit...his reason for quiting...as he presented it to me...was that the pace at which they worked was slowing down his metabolism and was having a negative affect on his game...they rode around town in a pickup truck between breaks...going to work was basically a long boring day of riding around town seeing how they could kill the day...he was able to recover from that summer of apoplexy and the next year found him playing college basketball on a full ride scholarship...by the way...he does not presently work for the government...but 2 of brothers do.
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