posted
I will have to install some 6"x6" posts by april 1st. There still is 30" of snow on top of the frozen ground. Around here you have to dig down 3ft- 3 1/2 ft to get down to the freeze line. I know the ground won't be thawed out that far down by April 1. What ideas do you have for thawing out the ground. Will I have to rent an auger? (I have never used one. Our local rental place has a 1 man and 2 man auger)
Diane
-------------------- Balch Signs 1045 Raymond Rd Malta, NY 12020 518 885-9899 signs@balchsigns.com http://www.balchsigns.com Posts: 1695 | From: MaltaNY | Registered: Jan 2000
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Well you will have to dig down to the ground. Then spread Ice melt, not salt, liberaly in the area you want to dig. And I mean Liberaly. Then I cover the ice melt with Hay, come back a few days later and dig.
I'm not keen on Augers, but they are better than using a post hole digger. I still prefer the post hole digger though.
Never had a let down.
[ February 28, 2011, 10:39 AM: Message edited by: Bob Rochon ]
-------------------- Bob Rochon Creative Signworks Millbury, MA 508-865-7330
"Life is Like an Echo, what you put out, comes back to you." Posts: 5149 | From: Millbury, Mass. U.S. | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Bob's right, you have to melt the frost. An auger will just sit there and spin on the frozen ground.
It's not easy doing this. I've heard of guys building a small tent over the spot and putting a propane heater in there, again, days of heating with expensive propane. I've also heard of using charcoal to warm the ground, again many days of heating, dig, heat some more, dig some more.
I found an outfit that specializes in drilling through frozen ground with a special rig. I asked how much. They refused to tell me saying "don't worry, you can't afford it." Do you believe that? They wouldn't even give me a figure. I'm guessing they were over a thousand dollars an hour for their crew and rig.
[ February 28, 2011, 10:47 AM: Message edited by: Dave Sherby ]
-------------------- Dave Sherby "Sandman" SherWood Sign & Graphic Design Crystal Falls, MI 49920 906-875-6201 sherwoodsign@sbcglobal.net Posts: 5396 | From: Crystal Falls, MI USA | Registered: Apr 1999
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posted
Back in Iowa we would dig out the snow and cover about an 18" area with half a bag of charcoal. Light the charcoal and cover with an old hubcap or garbage can lid... come back half a day later and start digging in the mud. It works.
posted
I have 2 kinds of post hole diggers. I also have a heavy long metal pipe with a sharp pry bar welded to it (works great breaking up shale). We have lots of clay and shale around here. I don't think the town will let me do the charcoal bit unless I sit there with it (too many kids around). Thanks!
Diane
-------------------- Balch Signs 1045 Raymond Rd Malta, NY 12020 518 885-9899 signs@balchsigns.com http://www.balchsigns.com Posts: 1695 | From: MaltaNY | Registered: Jan 2000
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I have a long 5/8" bit for our hammer drill that we use in penetrating buildings for installing lighted signs. I've used in in hard ground in the past, drilling a series of holes that I could break out with the rock bar. None of it is any fun.
-------------------- David Harding A Sign of Excellence Carrollton, TX Posts: 5084 | From: Carrollton, TX, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
We use a guy with a bobcat mounted auger. I believe it has a carbide tip for winter drilling. Can the sign be mounted on a temporary sign stand or on steel posts driven in the ground? When it thaws out it could be permanently installed.
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I'm a very lazy person and I work very hard at it. I called a fence company. They dug two holes for me 48" deep and 12" wide for $50. It took them less than 20 minutes with their equipment. And being the evil capitalist that I am, I charged the client $75. After all, picking up that phone to make the call was manual labor.
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I had a Kawasaki two-man post hole digger. It was far more trouble than it was worth. Anytime it hit a hard spot or a rock, the automatic clutch engaged, and it stopped digging. And if you were unlucky enough to get it stuck in the ground you were in trouble. Add to that a 2-cycle motor that wasn't the easiest to keep in tune. I used it one summer and sold it to a fence company.
Michael B is right about the surface, at least in my winter experiences (Illinois & Kansas). After a few inches of frozen crust, the digging is not that bad. And if you have clay, it doesn't stick to the blades as badly as in summer.
I also used to have a beastly jab digger that had been modified with heavier 10-foot (1-1/2" EMT conduit) handles and (3/16" steel plate)reinforced cutting edges on the blades. My helpers avoided using it, but it would bust rocks like a rock bar and cut 1-inch tree roots in one jab. It could also cut through a telephone wire like it was burnt string. Call before you dig.
-------------------- Brad Ferguson See More Signs 7931 Wornall Rd Kansas City, MO 64111 signbrad@yahoo.com 816-739-7316 Posts: 1230 | From: Kansas City, MO, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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I agree with Mike. Even though it has been a cold winter here we have minimal frost because of all the snow on top of the ground. I would go check it out.
-------------------- Lou Pascuzzi www.economysigns.com Fine Hand Lettering since 1973 Danbury, Ct 203-748-4580 "IOAFS" Posts: 341 | From: Danbury, Ct | Registered: Feb 2000
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Well you will have to dig down to the ground. Then spread Ice melt, not salt, liberaly in the area you want to dig. And I mean Liberaly. Then I cover the ice melt with Hay, come back a few days later and dig.
Add a black tarp on the top of the hay to focus the suns heat.
[ March 01, 2011, 07:37 AM: Message edited by: Bob Moroney ]
-------------------- Bob Moroney The Sign Guy 310 Club Valley Drive Falmouth, MA 02536 508-259-6297 Posts: 216 | From: Falmouth, MA | Registered: Jul 2008
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I do it the same way as Bob but I go to the local concrete plant and 100% calcium chloride that they add to the concrete. It works better than ice melt, you can hear it almost sizzling in the frost.
-------------------- Jake Lyman Lyman Signs 45 State Road Phillipston, MA 01331 Posts: 635 | From: Phillipston, MA | Registered: Sep 2002
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posted
Those are all good comments and will be noted. However Diane, unless you had a major freeze before getting snow you may find to be very lucky.
Around here if you have that much snow on top I can guarantee you there will be no freeze or if any 1 to 2 inches tops.
Go check the area you will be digging (but NOT in the exact spot)and remove some snow and check the ground, you might be amazed.
Keep in mind if the ground is not frozen DO NOT remove the snow in advance because overnight it will turn that wet area as hard as steel.
Again check out the area, snow is a great insulator.
A note for the future,If I have to do a winter install and know it before the Winter hits, I put a piece of 2" insulation board on the ground and put a cement block on top. When time to install I just remove and start digging.
Edited to say; I apologize for not reading all of the above posts since most of what I said, was said.
[ March 02, 2011, 07:53 AM: Message edited by: Sam Staffan ]
-------------------- Sam Staffan Mackinaw Art & Sign 721 S. Nokomis St. Mackinaw City, MI dstaffan@sbcglobal.net Posts: 1694 | From: Mackinaw City, MI | Registered: Mar 2004
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or just call Roy Frisby- I bet he has some "holes" he could sell you, then you wouldn't have to dig anything....
edited: for those of you who missed it, Roy had a pretty good thread in the archives going about selling "holes" ... search it, it will amuse you...
Here is the original post: "Have recently come by an abandoned oil well. Am seriously considering purchasing said well and salvaging the hole. Will have for sale several thousand feet in various lengths of ready made holes if anyone is interested in such. Size will vary from 2' up or down."
[ March 03, 2011, 01:52 PM: Message edited by: Michael Clanton ]
-------------------- Michael Clanton Clanton Graphics/ Blackberry 19 Studio 1933 Blackberry Conway AR 72034 501-505-6794 clantongraphics@yahoo.com Posts: 1735 | From: Conway Arkansas | Registered: Oct 2001
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