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Author Topic: Done as Sign Owner - with questions
Corey Wine
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Hi all,

After 10 years of learning, managing, growing a business...my wife, Lisa and I have made a decision, just last Thursday, to no longer have this business. This has been spontanious and will be delving into what could be quite scary.

At this point, we are building more questions than anwsers about how to make the transition. We have thought of selling it. We have thought about walking away from it. We have thought about bankruptcy. We have thought about our customers. We have thought about our employees.

We have never done this before. Being dilligent in our mission to find an answer to our new ordeal of getting this business behind us, we have come up with more confusion than direction. I told my wife that I have always got the best advice from Letterville and that I would post...what I am posting now, as perhaps someone may be able to help with a direction or help steer us from a direction we truely would not want to go down! Perhaps someone has a great remedy that worked for them without too much axiety and stress, guilt, embarrassment etc. Perhaps someone knows of "the perfect broker" to go to to sell the business or if that is a bad idea and we need a lawyer first and foremost.

Needless to say, we are the controllers of our destiny, like all of us on this website, but all of us come here to give and receive wonderful advice.

Any advice, questions, comments are, and have always been greatly appreciated.

**Our "inital plan" is to move back to Southern California (Anaheim vicinity) where I would still be a sign guy - in case any of you are hiring sign guys with experience. [Wink]

[ February 22, 2011, 03:35 PM: Message edited by: Corey Wine ]

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Corey Wine
SignCONCEPTS
Airdrie, Alberta, Canada

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Glenn Taylor
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Hi Corey,

I sent you an email. I hope you find the PDF helpful.

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BlueDog Graphics
Wilson, NC

www.BlueDogUSA.com

Warning: A well designed sign may cause fatigue due to increased business.

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Ian Stewart-Koster
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Corey,
you have not actually spelled out what you see is your problem, or what led to this decision.
You have just stated that you have made a decision to stop.

How many employees do you have?
Do you have too much competition?
What sort of work did you do & are you doing now-has it changed? If so, why?

Is price the only factor that wins you jobs?
Do you currently own the building you work from?
Would less-expensive premises & a smaller workforce help you stay above water?

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"Stewey" on chat

"...there are no limits when you aim for perfection..." Jonathan Livingston Seagull

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Neil D. Butler
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So Sorry to hear that Corey.. I guess most of us here have been through some difficult situations at one time or another. You keep hoping that next month things will turn around, sometimes they do. Remember it's always darkest before the Dawn. Good luck with whatever you decide.

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"Keep Positive"

SIGNS1st.
Neil Butler
Paradise, NF

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Bob Moroney
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My best suggestion would be to contact Ted Burbank, a retired business broker, who wrote many excellent books about selling a business. I have a few of them that I would be willing to loan you if you have an interest.
In and Out of Business Happily will take a couple of days to read and a few more to get a handle on. It will take you through a complete explanation of the process and emotions of a business sale transaction and show you how to "arrange" your business for sale. Expensive and time consuming, but worth every dollar and minute. Go to his web site (http://www.bizbooksoftware.com) and check him out.

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Bob Moroney
The Sign Guy
310 Club Valley Drive
Falmouth, MA 02536
508-259-6297

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James McLain
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Wow...were you not the guy that posted a few months ago about becoming an "appointment only" sign shop because you had an enormous amount of walk-in $200-$300 customers?

What happened? Seemed like business was great at the time you posted.

Regarding closing down, make sure you file all the correct documents with your State. I had a client that did not file the correct paperwork and even after being closed for 2 years he had to pay the State ESTIMATED sales taxes!

Yes, that's right...the State made him pay 2 years of sales tax (plus penalties and interest) that he NEVER collected because he didn't file the correct forms with the State proving that he closed the business. They looked at his previous years and simply estimated the amount that he "should have paid." Scary.

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Jim McLain
McLain Studios
1203 Main Street
Asbury Park, NJ 07712
jlm@mclainstudios.com

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Neil D. Butler
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James, we are Canadians, we Don't pay State Taxes, lol

[ February 23, 2011, 11:56 AM: Message edited by: Neil D. Butler ]

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"Keep Positive"

SIGNS1st.
Neil Butler
Paradise, NF

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Corey Wine
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Yeh, scary times for us. Thanks for the replies. Yes, I never went into the "Appt only" phase. I hired a person "boldly" at xmas time because, he was "the golden child" that we have been looking for for 5+ years. I didn't want him to go away. Last January, we did about $40000 and february again, $40000. This January, $24,000 and Feb.....$11,000. It does not take long for a couple of bad months to cripple a business but, we have never been so slow. We are the "go to sign shop" in our area but, Ironically, and right at xmas time, Speedpro came into our city. I am already feeling the need to lower prices, get out of any Niche and simply do cheap ass Coroplast, Magnetics, banners etc... I cann't imagine they are doing half the business we are but, our phones are as frozen as our temps up here. It made me realize that what we have built over the last 10 years can go up in a puff of smoke "very quickly". Knowing that is leaving me feel burnt out and not very hopeful to sink more $ into "hope". I do not own the building and have 1.3 years left on the lease. I laid the perfect newbie off last night and dumped some advertising. We have vehicle graphics (3 vehicles, radio ads, newspaper, yellow pages, my wife is Pres of the Breakfast Club and VP of the Airdrie Cham,ber of Commerce. We are network GURUS yet...NOTHING LATELY. Lately, it seems that if we're not the cheapest, we do not get the jobs. Loyalty seems to have gone out the window. I "KNOW" that once everything thaws a bit up here (within a month, our phones will ring but, it is a different time. I think we may slow down our "exit strategy" and delve into the readings that Bob and Glenn has recommended in order to make sure we pay all those needing paying and increase the odds of selling for a proper price rather than walking away......

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Corey Wine
SignCONCEPTS
Airdrie, Alberta, Canada

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Nikki Goral
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Does Canada offer unemployment wages?
The employees can be off and still collect $$.
You can do like we do here in the winter.(when i worked for more than myself)
The road crew and pretty much everyone (shop staff, not necessarily office staff) who can't perform at least 3 duties critical to the day to day operations of the shop get laid off right before deer hunting (week before Thanksgiving in Nov) and don't get called back until March.
They get to hunt, ski, go snowmobiling or get caught up on projects at home (cuz when summer comes, they are working 70-80 hrs per week).
Everyone expects it and most enjoy it, unless they are barely scraping by, paycheck to paycheck.

It was good for me since there were less interruptions for the work I DID have, got to get out of the design room and do other work and get caught up on financial reports etc, which was part of my managerial duties as well. I even snagged a little time off for myself of Friday's! Got to go home at noon if my 40 was in already or skip the entire day and alternate with the other designer...just so someone was there.
Sometimes the owners just closed on Friday's at noon and if we had work to do, the phones went to the answering service.

The company employed about 25-30 full time and in winter went down to less than 10...

[ February 23, 2011, 12:43 PM: Message edited by: Nikki Goral ]

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Nikki Goral
Image Advantage Signs
4050 Champeau Road
New Franken, WI 54229
920-465-4500
"Finish every day and be done with it. Tomorrow is a new day."-Ralph Waldo Emerson

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Doug Allan
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what book does Glenn suggest?

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Doug Allan
http://www.islandsign.com

"you get what you settle for"

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Tony Lucero
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Corey, I can relate to your 2011 Jan and Feb numbers and know how this can scare the hell out of you if you don't have reserve funds in the bank to hold you over. You may have already gone to a line of credit and/or used a credit card or two to get over a hump. It does seem like it's a never ending uphill battle.

But, keep in mind that some of the largeset and most sophisticated corporations in the world, with marketing departments, comptrollers, division chiefs and staff galore have had every advantage and still have found themselves in your exact position. If you've been showing up to work everyday and giving it your best shot...please don't feel like you've failed. We are operating in a very fluid and unpredictable economy. Buyers are very reluctant to close deals...they are shopping prices more than ever. The problem is...it's working...they can almost always find a competitor (local or via internet) that is willing to do the job for less. You spend time and effort to quote and design and a lot of that ends up as wasted time.

What can truly be a waste of time is walking away from 10 years of relationships, contacts, good will and a reputation with nothing to show. I have learned that starting over has some theraputic value of not having a bunch of negative baggage...but you have to deal with the lean times of a typical start up all over again.

I might have to make some tough decisions in the near future...but I know in my heart that some good months are inevitable. I may re-focus on the jobs that make me money and try to find ways to get customers to pay promptly. I know there are ways to "add value" without discounting my price to the bone.

I can tell you are going through some real soul searching, I pray you find a good solution for you and your wife. Good Luck

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Tony Lucero
Eagle Graphics
Waterford, MI
www.eaglegph.com

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James McLain
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Sorry to hear business dropped off a cliff for you Corey. If it makes you feel any better, the same has essentially happened to me. However, I'm not the "network GURU" like you and I figured it was mostly my fault due to lack of aggressive marketing. It scares me that you have so much marketing and STILL business evaporated.

We have some new Speedpro franchises around me as well. They do market aggressively and seem to be "cheap." However, dirt cheap pricing is available on the internet too. So if it's not Speedpro...it will be somebody else. We all have to find a good way to combat the "I found x sign or y sign online for $2 can you match the price."

Anyway...Good luck with whatever path you choose to take.

@ Neil...don't you have "Provincial Sales Taxes"? For most intents and purposes, in Canada, a province is about the same as a "State" in America. My point was simply: make sure the government body to which you pay any taxes knows you closed your business so they don't think you just stopped paying and come after you.

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Jim McLain
McLain Studios
1203 Main Street
Asbury Park, NJ 07712
jlm@mclainstudios.com

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Jonathan Harvey
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A year and a half ago I applied for a part time job at FedEx as a way to have a stable income and insurance for our new son. A year later they offered me a full-time position. The next week I unplugged the phone locked the door and haven't been back except to pick up the mail. I know what your feeling with customers, frozen phones, and chasing down money. I did it for ten years. Now I work 45hrs a week and see my family alot more and make decent money to raise my family. Do I look back and regret it, some days. I do when I see the signs I made in towns I pass. But for the most part I'm glad I walked away the way I did.
Hope all works out well.

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Jonathan Harvey
Harvey's Signs and Designs
214 N. Main Newton,KS 67114
316-283-2424
(no telemarketers)

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Glenn Taylor
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Doug, its called "Built to Sell" by John Warrillow

www.builttosell.com/

[ February 23, 2011, 02:17 PM: Message edited by: Glenn Taylor ]

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BlueDog Graphics
Wilson, NC

www.BlueDogUSA.com

Warning: A well designed sign may cause fatigue due to increased business.

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Neil D. Butler
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Member # 661

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James, of course we do have a Sales Tax, but if a business didn't collect Tax, then we don't pay it... I haven't heard of anything like that happening here... but good point if it applies to you.

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"Keep Positive"

SIGNS1st.
Neil Butler
Paradise, NF

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Blake Wright
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I don't know your details. But is down sizing and bringing your good customers with you a option. Leave the cheep stress customers behind by raising their prices untill you make enough on them to make it worth your while, or let them go down the road. I work by myself and if I hit 5k a month I'm fine with it. I loose jobs every day. I probability only get one out of 10 quotes. But I make that one count with a fair profit margin. I like many of us love the sign business, just sometime it seems it doesn't always love us back. Good luck whith whatever you choose.

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Blake Wright
The Sign Shop of Florence
Florence S.C.

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Neil D. Butler
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 - [/IMG]

--------------------
"Keep Positive"

SIGNS1st.
Neil Butler
Paradise, NF

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Corey Wine
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Not a clue. BTW, "Built to Sell" is a great read. I am about half way through but, from reading I know that "I am the business" and I cannot imagine it to be sellable for that reason. I have a couple of options but, my mind is racing. In the last 7 days, I have averaged 3-4 hours of sleep each night.
Don't really know how to break my Bay Lease and go back to a home based business and seriously, I want someone else to be the boss again. I could go to Calgary for work but, my company truck lease will be turned in as well. I have toyed with the thought (greatly) of moving back to California with my family and my little Summa D-60, work within walking distance at "Costco" or something and punch out a couple of crappy Coroplast signs or auto graphics at night for a couple of extra coins to rub together. I just want to make sure my family is safe in the transition and that I don't screw my vendors, employees, existing customers for the time being.

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Corey Wine
SignCONCEPTS
Airdrie, Alberta, Canada

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Neil D. Butler
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Don't sell your self short thinking that you are the Business, there may be other Sign shops who would love to have those extra customers... You say that you were averaging 40 grand a month before? Is that Right? A couple of bad months should be worth weathering if that is correct... but only you know your circumstances.. I sold a business about 17 years ago where I thought I was the business also... but there's so much more to it.. Good Will, being worth more than you might think... but it all depends on your economy, Customer base and so forth. How long have you been in business at this current location?

We have 3 Franchise shops here now, Signs Now FastSigns and now SpeedPro, and SpeedPro opened directly across the street from FastSigns... and The Owner of FastSigns just moved into his newly Built building that he Bought.. I know he's not Peeved..... SpeedPRO Opened here a few years ago, only to close a year or 2 later... Now A nurse and her Son bought the franchise, leased a new location, bought all kinds of gear and expect the orders will just pile up.... Hmm good Luck with that. Just Rambling I suppose, Hate to hear anyone who's legit going through a hard time.. Again Good Luck...

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"Keep Positive"

SIGNS1st.
Neil Butler
Paradise, NF

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Corey Wine
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Yeh, Speedpro has opened up and shut down in Calgary before. Again, I am optimistic that it is just "friggin cold alberta" and not anything to do with Speedpro. Having said that, I have laid off my newbie and have told my no. 1 guy (who is having a baby with his wife) to go into Calgary to look for work.It will be...just me, as my wife is looking for a job too.

We have been in business for 10 years, incorporated for about 5 of those years.

Have done $380,000; $380,000 and $420,000 in the last 3 years here.

So, sellable????? I still don't know....

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Corey Wine
SignCONCEPTS
Airdrie, Alberta, Canada

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Nikki Goral
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Blake is fine with 5K per month (sales or profit?)
And Corey averages about $33,000 per month in sales.

How do each of you plan for your year? (what is the CA to US exchange rate, so we can look at dollars to dollars?)

What is the determining factor for each of you to stay in business or get out? Is it money?

What are your overheads and can you cut any services or charges to reduce expense and increase revenue?

Is there any "fat" in your process?

Just wondering...(2) different shops on two different ends of the spectrum.

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Nikki Goral
Image Advantage Signs
4050 Champeau Road
New Franken, WI 54229
920-465-4500
"Finish every day and be done with it. Tomorrow is a new day."-Ralph Waldo Emerson

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Neil D. Butler
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I do kow In Alberta is is really expensive for everything these days... Property Values have gone through the roof, so that means Rent is real High.. and so is Labour Rates... Our Dollars are almost Par these days, no difference hardly at all. $420 grand a year in Newfoundland can get you a lot more than Alberta these days.. but wer're catching up.

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"Keep Positive"

SIGNS1st.
Neil Butler
Paradise, NF

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Dan Sawatzky
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Two bad months would have been easy for us. When our theme park work dropped off a couple of years ago the bottom dropped out of our world. Three massive projects that would have kept us busy (and well fed) for one - two years simply vanished overnight. Our five - ten year goal of transitioning to 3D signs became an immediate need. Even so it took two years to make it happen in a meaningful way. We went seriously backwards for those two years. Thankfully we had the depth to survive. Things have now turned around here once more with our 'new' business.

In those lean years we skinnied up, cut back and did without. It wasn't the most fun time. We thought long and hard about what we WANTED to do - then changed our focus to those goals and toughed it out. I worked harder for less money than I ever had before. But I knew what I wanted and was confident we could achieve it.

You have to think hard about what it is you DO like about your current business. Look at what makes you money, what you enjoy. Weigh those things against what you want to change.

You make lots of mention in your posts about the COLD in Alberta. That I understand for we worked in alberta full time for five years. (Longest twelve years of my life! [Smile] )

If you quit and move back to California you will undoubtably take a hit. If it is worth it RUN and never look back or question your decision. Life is far too short to stay where we are truly not happy.

-grampa dan

[ February 24, 2011, 12:20 PM: Message edited by: Dan Sawatzky ]

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Dan Sawatzky
Imagination Corporation
Yarrow, British Columbia
dan@imaginationcorporation.com
http://www.imaginationcorporation.com

Being a grampa is one of the the most wonderful things in the world!!!

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Blake Wright
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I have heard what dan just said many many times. About 6 months ago I moved my shop from a store front business that required me there all the time. To a off the rd location that I can go as I please. I stream lined my bills to the bare bones. Set aside two days a week for cold calling. I only show the signs that I want to do. Right now I push sandblasted signs all I can. Now before, I was doing all kinds of signs I worked very hard to compete with the cheeep guy and made very little money. At that time I quoted maybe one sandblasted sign a year. Now I have 9 sold already this year. 5k in sales would hold me just fine. Now I am blessed that my house is paid for and my off the rd shop is only $250 a month. All my sign stuff I bought as I needed it and paid cash for it. I'm glad i didn't jump on the digital printing wagon when it came through a few years ago. Mike jackson has wrote some good articals about his decisions like this in signcraft. Dig some up. You'll be glad you did.

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Blake Wright
The Sign Shop of Florence
Florence S.C.

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Kevin Gaffney
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Fo a while I adopted the attitude of trying to do the high end stuff. However, things have gotten so tight in Ireland customers are now only interested in the cheapest jobs. Unfortunately, I have had to adapt to these crappy circumstances. However, due to having no overheads, I can turn out the cheap digi print correx boards and make a living out of it. The plus side, in years to come if things improve, I will still have a large client base and they will hopefully have a little more money to spend. Don't knock the cheapie work too much, it may get a lot of us through the next few years. If there is nothing else out there and you have the equipment, you might as well be doing something once there is some profit in it. I had a new customer today give me 20 tractor units to letter over next three months. The price isn't incredible, but added to other stuff, the bills will all be paid for the next while and a holiday for the family late july

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Kevin Gaffney
Artistik Signs
Kinnegad
County Westmeath
Ireland
044-75187
kevingaffney@eircom.net

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Barb Schilling
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Corey, Go to this web site: http://www.diybizsales.com/
The guy who designed this is Ben Brickweg and is an amazing guy. Be sure to tell him Barb from Sign Station told you about it!!!!!

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SIGN STATION

Anoka, Minnesota
www.signstation.com
barbara@signstation.com

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Doug Allan
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Thanks Glenn, just downloaded it.

I have had such a rough patch I have been embarrassed to post about it for the most part, but I had a steady incline for 11 years after buying a small screen printing business the had been printing signs & decals for 20 years, never breaking $60K in sales, & I took it above that mark in my first or second year with no prior business experience...

I said many times over the next 11 years that it was the ride of my life & I had never been happier... (and had also never stuck with any one thing, place or person that long before either)

By 2006 to 2008 I had sort of hit a plateau of $280K with 1 full time guy & 1 part timer. So, as a continuation of a fairly long planned goal, I brought in a second veteran employee, dropped almost $70k into an expansion & build-out of a second leased warehouse space and signed an $80K equipment lease.. and promptly lost my shirt...

2009 was a full $100K lower in sales.. but I was so focused on the build out & equipment training, I sucked up $100K in credit lines & managed to not notice how badly I was bleeding...

well, I fired the "veteran" when I realized he had been working for himself and not me, and I sucked it up & worked 3 times harder, with several overhead reductions I negotiated for, or just cut out of the picture & in 2010 I did the same $180K with 1 less FT helper, and I saw a $50K increase in what I kept out of the sales I made... BUT... paying my 6 figure debt from 2009 has made me still operate in the red..

Basically I am still sinking but a lot slower, my safety net is near extinction & the few glimmers of hope are hanging on believing that my perseverance to make dramatic changes in 2010 will lead to finding a way to continue the turnaround this year... and the fact that I am positioned to break my best years by double, as soon as that much work comes knocking..

I may lose my house, or move my shop to my house, but I am too happy and proud with the 14 year investment of my life to give up easily.. yet I also believe there will be a correct point of no return after which it would make sense to let it go. I pray to God I can pull out of the nose dive before I ever hit that point. I will pray for you too Corey!

[ February 25, 2011, 12:49 PM: Message edited by: Doug Allan ]

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Doug Allan
http://www.islandsign.com

"you get what you settle for"

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Corey Wine
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Thanks Barb, I will check out the link.
Thanks everyone.

Doug, I feel I am "in your footsteps" and, I am sorry. Did you go through your bank to consolidate your DEBT??? I would love to hear your feedback on "PERSERVERING" and "WHAT TO DO" and "WHAT TO EXPECT NEXT".

From Nikki: What is the determining factor for each of you to stay in business or get out? Is it money?

It is not money keeping me in this business or walking away from this buiness...it is THE LACK OF MONEY!!!!

I am finding out that we (I) am down about $60,000 since late December which includes $25,000 that I owe to vendors. I laid off the new guy, I gave the veteran his notice (1 month) but, told him not to worry about any notice, if he lands a job, then GO. I still feel like walking away. I am planning some contacts for the possibility of selling, after all, whats a couple of bad months compared to the last 100 months.....
I am NOT one to walk away and not pay my vendors....BUT, then again, HOW? If the phone aitn a ringin??? If my employees are all gone and I am left to quote, design, answer phones, greet walk ins, cut vinyl, print vinyl, pull in cars for application, apply graphics to cars and substrates. I am going to stop quoting on installation. No more climbing ladders, digging holes, obtaining ground locates, getting install permits etc.
I wish I could get out of this bay (2600 sf) and get into an 1100 sf ft or such but, with the uncertain year ahead and the cost of moving in general, I think it would just be a "wash". I can tackle everything, I did it before, just on a very much smaller scale. I feel the need to never leave, just stay and continue to produce, produce, produce BUT, AGAIN, no phone calls = HOW THE HELL DO I DO THAT?
Another -33c with wind chill/-26 Faranheit day when it is normally +2C and another full week of it! I think it is the biggest culprit in the last 2 months...

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Corey Wine
SignCONCEPTS
Airdrie, Alberta, Canada

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Rick Janzen
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Hey Cory, I feel your pain. Went through what your experiancing about 10 years ago. 10,000 sq. ft. shop /employees / debt. etc...etc. Not sure I would be of any help, but feel free to give me a call (I'm in Calgary.). If you want, send me an email with a number.
Rick

[ March 01, 2011, 11:26 AM: Message edited by: Rick Janzen ]

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Streamline Studios Inc.
Calgary. AB
www.streamlinestudios.blogspot.ca

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Glenn Taylor
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Doug, I know how it feels. It sucks.

I'm "the boss's kid". I don't own the shop. My mom does. (a wonderful thing for a 49 year old's male ego [Wink] )

If the shop goes under, she loses her house and everything she's ever worked for. It why I work like a do. I might draw one paycheck every 4 or 5 weeks.

When my father started the business, everything was centered around him and his talent. If he was sick, the whole shop shut down. His plan in the beginning was to build the business up and then be able to sell it and retire at 60. It never worked out that way and it never would.

Right now, I'm trying to build the shop to a point where it can be self-sustaining. I've been following much of Dan Antonelli's advice about becoming more of a design firm and less of a sign shop. So far, its working out pretty well.

Money is still tight but we're hanging on there. Dan's article about hiring people is spot on. I hired two people last year and they've been a godsend.

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BlueDog Graphics
Wilson, NC

www.BlueDogUSA.com

Warning: A well designed sign may cause fatigue due to increased business.

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KARYN BUSH
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The best thing I ever did in 2009,(when business dropped like a lead balloon, starting in mid 2008) was to take on a 10hr gig per week in accounting and do signs part time.
I too had big plans for myself in 2004/5...I bought a CNC router, versacamm, laminator and a princess luxury truck...acquiring 139k in debt. I was flying around the country 4 times a year going to shows and meets...living like a rockstar and following my dream...cause someone once told me, if I follow my passion the money will come....yeah....sure it will.
It was the hardest 6-7 years of my solo career. I had learned to operate a CNC, digital printer...and at the same time having to pay for it all...I nearly killed myself paying it off...working 70+ hrs/week. It was time to do some real soul searching and suck it up!
Fast forward to now....I traded in the 42k luxury truck for a regular Tundra in 2008 when Toyota was practically giving them away(3 yr loan...4 pymts left...yeah!!!)...ditched the CNC...buh buy anchor weight, helloooo parking space in my garage, haven't been anywhere since 05, haven't bought anything since 2005, and decided I was no longer interested in doing dimensional signs with gold leaf etc cause around here...there's no $$ in it!
I was going to only do what was easy $ in my mind...design, press print, laminate & apply on dibond...and accounting.
So...interestingly enough in the later part of 2010 I got slammed with 2 huge projects(good customer service/relations pays off big time). Of course the largest routing job I ever got comes in...after I sold mine...so I subbed that part out..made great $$ and was able to pay the router guy great $$ too(so he can go to Dan's class next week) [Smile] ...
2010 was the best year I've ever had! I was able to pay off all debt...except for 4 more truck pymts...then I'll just have my half of the mortgage...Life will be great again!!!
So I guess my point is...ya gotta roll with the changes. If you are on a sinking ship..then plug the hole or jump off. Life is way too short to have a business suck your soul dry.

I have to be honest...I think the sign business is the most fuked up business around. I don't think I know anyone who makes great $ just doing signs...without owning income property or other investments to help subsidize it.
For me personally, the sign business will be part time...25-30hrs a week, unless I get another special project..then I'll work endlessly to finish it, of course. But my goal is to plan and schedule work so I have 2 days off a week...and use subs when needed. I want a normal life.
Good luck to everyone who is struggling...it's tough out there, and I don't see it getting any better for awhile...so do what you have to do to survive.

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Karyn Bush
Simply Not Ordinary, LLC
Bartlett, NH
603-383-9955
www.snosigns.com
info@snosigns.com

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Neil D. Butler
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I like you Karen.. you speak the truth. lol

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"Keep Positive"

SIGNS1st.
Neil Butler
Paradise, NF

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Rodger MacMunn
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Karyn, if you think that the sign industry is the most fornicated-up business around, go lease a new Peterbilt & commence to truckin'.

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Rodger MacMunn
T.R. MacMunn & Sons
C.P.207, Sharbot Lake, ON
613-279-1230
trmac@frontenac.net

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KARYN BUSH
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Hey Roger...just cause I talk like a truck driver don't mean I wanna be one! lol.
Thanks Neil...I like you too!

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Karyn Bush
Simply Not Ordinary, LLC
Bartlett, NH
603-383-9955
www.snosigns.com
info@snosigns.com

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Doug Allan
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quote:
Originally posted by KARYN BUSH:
...my point is...ya gotta roll with the changes. If you are on a sinking ship..then plug the hole or jump off. Life is way too short to have a business suck your soul dry.

Good luck to everyone who is struggling...it's tough out there, and I don't see it getting any better for awhile...so do what you have to do to survive.

Thanks Karyn... that is good advice! I hope I can just figure out which is better for me... plug the leak, or jump off...

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Doug Allan
http://www.islandsign.com

"you get what you settle for"

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Doug Allan
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quote:
Originally posted by Corey Wine:


Doug, I feel I am "in your footsteps" and, I am sorry. Did you go through your bank to consolidate your DEBT??? I would love to hear your feedback on "PERSERVERING" and "WHAT TO DO" and "WHAT TO EXPECT NEXT".



Corey,
I gotta head to the shop... tomorrow I leave for a trip to see my kids & reorganize my thoughts (thanks mom) I'll try to post later, but maybe you and I should talk on the phone some day...

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Doug Allan
http://www.islandsign.com

"you get what you settle for"

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Pierre Tardif
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quote:
Good luck to everyone who is struggling...it's tough out there, and I don't see it getting any better for awhile...so do what you have to do to survive.
Thanks Karyn!

After 23 years in the sign business I understand your strugglings. Out of those 23 years I can honestly say I was financially comfortable only 5 years in the early 2000's when window splashes was the rules. The rest of the time I felt like pushing a car on the parking brakes, goes forward when you push hard, but as soon as you take a break, it stops moving.

Like a drug addict, I still love painting signs, but as a rationnal man I wonder if it's not going to kill me (financially) one day. With sign painting I have been able to provide my family an heated house and tree meals a day, but it is getting harder and harder. For the first time of my life I prepared my resume last spring just in case I get a real job.

I moved my shop at home last year in hope of reducing the expense. I now work solo most of the time, the down-side of it, is that it leaves fewer time to promote myself. And I truly believe the key to success is promoting what we do.

Corey I don't believe the weather is a factor. Customership has changed. People are bargaining all the times now. Customer's loyalty is mostly gone. No matter how good you serve the customer, they are not shy to go elsewhere without any notice.

Last week I went by a fast food restaurant that was my customer since 1995 to realized he had his banner done by another sign shop. No call, no notice. This happens more and more often. This leaves you with a sour taste everytime!

Worst of it is that as soon I have a brush in my hand I forget all about that, like a drug addict. Oh well, life is not that bad after all and I will still be a sign painter even tought I clean toiletsfor a living.

Good luck to all and to myself!

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Pierre Tardif
P. Tardif Inc.
1006 boul. PIE-XI sud Val-Belair
QC. Canada G3K 1L2
418-847-4089
pierre@ptardif.com

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Mikes Mischeif
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My dad once told me "never take financial advice from someone who has no money". I find sign people are passionate to a fault. I know, I am one. Now that I have two little ones, my focus is what can I pass on to them? What if they don't want to do signs. Better yet, what will this industry look like in 20 years?

My answer was to diversify. I cut my sign hours and started something that does not change. Something that does not depend on my own talents. Glenn, I hear you.

Besides signs, I'm a truck guy. It's my other passion. I have a photo of my Great Grandfather with his Model T he customized with a ladder rack for his carpentry business. I was struck by his creative solution and the fact that carpenters & tradesman will always need Ladder racks and tool Boxes.

Next Month I will open "Rugged Trucks". You see, last month while lettering 8 vans, I was told that they were going to be sent to get "racked".

Then the light bulb went off, and my connections with dealerships guarantees a stong customer base.

My advice is to diversify. Maybe someday 100 years from now, my great grandkids will see a guy next to a 2011 F150 with a ladder rack with lettering on the doors that says "Rugged Trucks - Est. 2011".

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Mike Duncan
Lettercraft Signs

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Glenn Taylor
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Congrats on the new venture, Mike!

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BlueDog Graphics
Wilson, NC

www.BlueDogUSA.com

Warning: A well designed sign may cause fatigue due to increased business.

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Ian Stewart-Koster
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That's "Lateral Thinking" at its best! [Smile]

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"Stewey" on chat

"...there are no limits when you aim for perfection..." Jonathan Livingston Seagull

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