posted
I was reading in another sign related forum yesterday and one of the regulars there got pretty snotty with a guy who is an experienced and skilled woodworker who was looking to get into the sign business because of slow sales in his field. The regular poster took the position that the woodworker should follow the "Anointed Path" (my term) and start at the bottom of the industry and work his way up, thereby "earning" the right to be in the sign business.
I thought his attitude was more than a little rigid and it got me wondering about how anybody gets into this business. Personally, I kind of fell into it. I found I enjoyed it and proceeded to become (for better or for worse) self-taught. In other words, I never aspired to be a sign person so it never occurred to me to seek out an approved or sanctioned program.
Which brings me to my point: how many here are self-taught? Relying on grit, talent, passion, and the wonderful people of the Letterheads movement to get where they are? On the other hand, how many here started with the broom-pushing, over-the-shoulder-looking, paint pot-cleaning, dues paying way of the "Anointed Path" that the guy in the other forum was so enamored with?
I'm not saying that one way is superior to the other. I'm just curious as to how many morph into this profession and how many came up through the ranks, as it were.
This might be interesting.
-------------------- Brian Oliver Paxton Signs Fort Collins, CO paxton@peakpeak.com www.paxtonsignsofcolorado.com Posts: 237 | From: ft. collins, colorado,usa | Registered: Mar 2001
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Me too ! Self taught and still learning after fifty plus years, thanks to all the great people here in Letterville and at all the events I have attended !
I suppose there are a few stuffed shirts out there, but most of the folks I have met have become great friends and family !
-------------------- Life is not about waiting for the storm to pass... It's about learning to dance in the rain ! Jim Moser Design 13342 C Grass Valley Ave. Grass Valley, Ca. 95945 530-273-7615 jwmoser@att.net Posts: 488 | From: Grass Valley, Ca. | Registered: May 2006
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Half & half. I started out as a painters helper in a large sign company before computers. Learned hand lettering as an apprentice and spent a lot of time in the spray booth. Some commercial art (as they used to say) in High School and Community College. Self & unformally taught in most other areas. I've been lucky to observe and learn from a lot of talented people. Next month I'm signed up to take a landscape painting class.
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was always into artistic stuff since I was 14(oil paints) found a opening at a "sign shop" doing routed (hand) and sand blasted wood, bought him out a year later. $500.00 went to work a Yesco and learned plastic and hand cut vinyl. been doing it 30 plus years
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started out self taught- found out real quick I had a moron for a teacher- then got smart and worked as an apprentice at a sign shop- 2nd generation sign artist started showing me the ropes, lots of lettering practice on glass- then moved on to a large shop and was grateful to assume the role of "gopher boy"- swept alot of floors, mixed a lot of paint, coated out tons of boards- then started working my way up- painting billboards, then pictorials, etc.
Don't care how good you are or think you are- you can always continue to learn new things...
-------------------- Michael Clanton Clanton Graphics/ Blackberry 19 Studio 1933 Blackberry Conway AR 72034 501-505-6794 clantongraphics@yahoo.com Posts: 1736 | From: Conway Arkansas | Registered: Oct 2001
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I'm self taught and have always worked for myself. I'll take 'passion to learn' over the 'anointed' path any day for anybody I might hire. I'd love it if my 'competition have that same self taught and passion too as the bar would be a lot higher in most cases allowing us all to sell (and our customers to expect) better work.
-grampa dan
-------------------- Dan Sawatzky Imagination Corporation Yarrow, British Columbia dan@imaginationcorporation.com http://www.imaginationcorporation.com
Being a grampa is one of the the most wonderful things in the world!!! Posts: 8738 | From: Yarrow, B.C. Canada | Registered: Nov 1998
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Self taught here too, Letterhead meets, a few workshops, Letterville and most of all Signcraft. Whenever I start something new I research as much as I can then jump in with both feet. I've had a few minor disasters but you learn quickly by making a few mistakes here and there.
-------------------- Dave Sherby "Sandman" SherWood Sign & Graphic Design Crystal Falls, MI 49920 906-875-6201 sherwoodsign@sbcglobal.net Posts: 5397 | From: Crystal Falls, MI USA | Registered: Apr 1999
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As a kid, I watched my dad hand-letter his windshields at his car lot. I tried it and saw how utterly tricky it was to make hand lettering look right. Four years of art school and grad school in architecture and I still could not hand letter. A buddy of mine from art school had apprenticed at a couple different sign shops and talked me into opening a full service sign company with him. I knew how to run a business, but nothing about signs. I learned alot real fast.
Sold him my half of the sign business after a few years and went back to restoring old cars and then onto running a Chevy store. One day, I could not find a sign painter to paint my showroom windows and figured I would give it a try. 21 years later, I am still slinging paint on windows.
I would have to say I am self taught, but... life is what happens to us! It is not how much you learned in school that matters, but how inspired you became after you started doing the deal.
-------------------- Preston McCall 112 Rim Road Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 text: 5056607370 Posts: 1552 | From: Santa Fe, New Mexico | Registered: Nov 1998
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Knew a truck driver, who knew Flo mills (Sign Painter), I went to Los Angeles Trade Tech College. Took the Sign Graphics course. During my second semester, the restaurant, which I waitressed at, burned down. While still in my waitress uniform, got my first truck lettering job. And I have been called Signpainter ever since. I have never been a full time employee at any sign shop, but I have helped out a few guys thoughout the years. One guy, I even helped him for free. I just wanted to stand on the ladder jack/plank set up. He was about 20 feet up on the air. I just stopped and asked him and asked if I could help and that I wasn't gonna charge him anything, but that I could swing a brush. Once I got up there, my butt just stayed on that plank.
-------------------- Signs by Alicia Jennings (Mudflap Girl) Tacoma, WA Since 1987 Have Lipstick, will travel. Posts: 3816 | From: Tacoma, WA. U.S.A. | Registered: Dec 1999
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I was encouraged to take this path from my dad, a truck letterer and gold leaf artist although he took on another line of work seriously so to speak in the nineteen forties. I have been a straight-line hand pinstriper on and off since 1952
Never really thought of this as I job but just doing what I really love to do, make money and have fun doing so
-------------------- HotLines Joey Madden - pinstriping since 1952 'Perfection, its what I look for and what I live for'
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Self taught learning through practice and reading everything that I could. First book was Ralph Gregory's Sign Painting Techniques. Went to Letterhead meets and felt real intimidated. The biggest inspiration was SignCraft magazine.
-------------------- Michael Clark Clark Signs 138 W. Main St. Aledo, IL 61231 clarksigns1@yahoo.com www.clarksigns.net Posts: 241 | From: Aledo, IL | Registered: Sep 2001
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Dan, that 'passion to learn' phrase & idea is a good & very valid one.
Gregg, I've met a few aussies who were entirely apprenticed into the trade, and they leave me for dead in many areas- they're brilliant all-round tradesmen. I think attitude has more to do with it- like Dan's mentioned passion- than the nature of the route (apprenticed or not) to get there.
-------------------- "Stewey" on chat
"...there are no limits when you aim for perfection..." Jonathan Livingston Seagull Posts: 7014 | From: Highgrove via Toowoomba, Queensland, Australia | Registered: Dec 2002
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Pretty much self taught.....then went back to school.
I started lettering race cars at 16. Had no idea what I was doing but I was slightly better at it than my friends at the time. Tried many different types of art media as I went along...oils. color pencil, wildlife art, car drawings. Then I took a job right out of Tech school at a specialty advertising firm. Did hundreds of logo designs and artwork pieces for screen printing....by hand along with a process camera. Worked at a sign shop for several years under a guy who learned from an old walldog.
Then went back to school to earn a Bachelors Degree in Art with a concentration in Industrial Design. I have now migrated to that field in order to utilize my crazy mix of experience.
Somewhere in all of that I started painting really big paintings on walls and learned a lot from fellow Letterheads and Walldogs.....and continue to every day!
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I grew up watching ond time sign painter, asking him question after question, never giving a thought to doing it myself. 30 years later I added truck lettering to my truck equipment shop. 5 years later I closed up the truck equipment shop, reduced the overhead to one person, ME, and haven't looked back. Spend a lot of time on sign sites, reading books and magazines and learning from the pros. Trying something new every day and loving it.
-------------------- Bob Moroney The Sign Guy 310 Club Valley Drive Falmouth, MA 02536 508-259-6297 Posts: 216 | From: Falmouth, MA | Registered: Jul 2008
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I have been lettering since Kindergarten, remember the back of scribblers? lol, I used to letter Blckboards in between classes in junior high and High school, almost graphitti like, one day the math teacher came in and looked at at and went for his eraser... he was about to erase it and stopped... he said.."This looks pretty good" turned to me and said did you do this Neil? I said Yes.. he then walked to the other end of the blackboard and said I'm leaving that there, and used another section of the board... I never forgot that. I did do commercial art at the local Trades school but took a keen interest in lettering... started doing weekly special signs for supermarkets on the side while working in the Art department for a big sign shop... worked there for a year then started out on my own, that was 1979...so yes self taught for the most part.
-------------------- "Keep Positive"
SIGNS1st. Neil Butler Paradise, NF Posts: 6277 | From: St. John's NF Canada | Registered: Mar 1999
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I'm pretty much self taught, lots of books and help and encouragement from Bob "Cos" Cosgrove from a thousand miles away. Got good enough to get a job at a sign shop....still learning.
-------------------- George Perkins Millington,TN. goatwell@bigriver.net
"I started out with nothing and still have most of it left"
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Talk about karma - I've dealt with the attitude before and laughed (to myself) when I later ran into an "anointed one" who had to come to the shop I worked for to purchase a sign because his company went bankrupt.
I'm always eager to teach what I know and I'll give anyone a fair chance to learn. But, just because you bought a plotter, printer, materials or whatever, it doesn't mean you're a sign maker.
And yes, there should be a "weeding out", internship or other process that (almost) forces people to become somewhat qualified before starting their own business. And I'm not just talking signs.
In today's politically correct society, there are too many people who are doing things that they shouldn't be doing. Besides damaging the image and reputation of the industry, with signs (and some other trades), they could jeopardize the lives of themselves and others.
Havin' fun,
Checkers
-------------------- a.k.a. Brian Born www.CheckersCustom.com Harrisburg, Pa Work Smart, Play Hard Posts: 3775 | From: Harrisburg, Pa. U.S.A. | Registered: Nov 1998
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Worked for the local sign guy who recommended I go to sign school, which I did, Butera School of Art Sign Division, Boston 1974, didn't go back for the second year because i got a job as the sign painter for the local Public Works Dept. Then worked at several shops, Whitey's Sign Hooksett NH, Morgan Signs, Norwalk Ct, Autografix, Branford CT and did a ton of freelance stuff along the way. Now running my own place. So I guess I went along the "annointed path" but I don't think anyone who came up in the handlettering days didn't do it without "grit, talent, passion" and the direction and knowledge of those along the way.
I think what annoys people is the "Hi I just got a job making a 6'x10' sign, how should I do this since I never built a sign before." or "I've never done this before but I just bought a plotter off Ebay and can't get it to work, can you tell me how to do it" type of questions. Not another sign person asking for assistance with a problem or project.
[ January 13, 2010, 10:24 AM: Message edited by: Bill Lynch ]
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God opened up the clouded sky and blessed me with two paths, a corporate banker or a sign guy...here I sit with a computer and a bunch of 1shot and vinyl.
Yep, self taught here, with a lot of help and guidance along the way from my Uncle, Don Eckland. He's my sign yoda.
-------------------- Scott Eckland Chelsea Signs web: chelseasigns.com email: scott@chelseasigns.com 734.475.9704 Posts: 198 | From: Michigan | Registered: Jun 2002
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Apprenticed at Diamond Signs,in California. Continued in Illinois and ended up teaching at a junior college. Pinstriping was all my own gig.
Now if I could figger out this Computer Stuff...
-------------------- Jack Wills Studio Design Works 1465 E.Hidalgo Circle Nye Beach / Newport, OR Posts: 2914 | From: Rocklin, CA. USA | Registered: Dec 1998
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A good foundation of a six month class in show card and fine lettering, working in a sign shop for eight years and forced into my own business by economics. Later self taught gold leaf on glass, hand carving and pictorial painting. Then the best education was joining the Letterheads. How many of you know that at one time the best commercial artist in the country was self taught? Bill
-------------------- Bill Riedel Riedel Sign Co., Inc. 15 Warren Street Little Ferry, N.J. 07643 billsr@riedelsignco.com Posts: 2953 | From: Little Ferry, New Jersey, USA | Registered: Feb 1999
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Was living in San Jose back in the early 80's at the time. Went to LA Trade Tech, for a month, youngest daughter got sick had to go back to San Jose guess you could say self taught and I'm still learning...
-------------------- aka:Cisco the "Traveling Millennium Sign Artist" http://www.franciscovargas.com Fresno, CA 93703 559 252-0935 "to live life, is to love life, a sign of no life, is a sign of no love"...Cisco 12'98 Posts: 3576 | From: Fresno, Ca, the great USA | Registered: Dec 1998
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Self Taught here to, was incouraged by another sign painter to get into it and she handed me my 1st SignCraft magazine...I became passionated about this craft right from seeing the first pages...As I tried finding out more(the sign painter who encourage me passed away)so went to ask questions at other shops, only to be told in not so nice langage to get lost...So went to libraries and got all the info I could find. Discovered letterheads through SignCraft...And at my first meet, met Bill Riedel and gold work has been a strong part of our business ever since and still learning everyday, passion is definately a key.
-------------------- Pat Welter Masterhand Signs and Designs Unity, Saskatchewan.Canada Posts: 1304 | From: Unity, Saskatchewan.Canada | Registered: May 1999
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I started to self teach in the 80s, bought brushes, air brushes, subscribed to Auto Graphics. Then my carpentry business took off for a while and I couldn't see how I might get into the sign buiss. In the 90s I learned how to weld and got a job in a truck building shop. I needed to have a full time 9-5 job as My wife died and I needed a more steady job while I raised my kids. I decided there had to be easier jobs and learned to weld aluminum. Then a big sign shop in Lincoln RI, advertised for a welder. My carpentry and welding experience worked well for this position. I was out building the guy who was teaching me in no time. Then I worked in a shop closer to home. All together about 4 years fabricating. I've allways keeped a hand in the carpentry, and do that inbetween jobs. I tell people, If I had to be called one thing I am a carpenter. Officialy I am listed as an artist with the IRS, and am getting into photography now. I have since gone to school and got an Associates in graphic art. I still can't hand letter or pinstripe well, but I have a plotter and can build signs of any size and shape, with any material, and I know how to build electric signs. Since I have the degree I an now looking to do more design work than fab. or vinyl work.
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I am a time served apprentice-trained signwriter and I would argue that its all very well learning from books but there's no substitute for learning our beloved craft of hand-painted signwriting than being an apprentice and learning from a master. I spent my four-year apprenticeship working for a pittance in order to hone my skills and become a crafsman of our art. I'm not against being self-taught but think the road of apprenticeships is the way to keep our wonderful craft alive.
-------------------- Brian the Brush brian the brush uk Yorkshire, UK www.brianthebrushuk.com Posts: 123 | From: United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2001
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2 years Showcard & Signpainting course at San Diego City College(2nd year was mostly doing all the signs/banners for the college)course covered all aspects. Then 16 years working for many shops, then my own for 17 years, last 10 yrs. back to brush only, striping/travel/work in tv/movies. I now have an interest in helping those who want to handletter.
-------------------- John Lennig / Big Top Sign Arts 5668 Ewart Street, Burnaby, British Columbia, Canada bigtopya@hotmail.com 604.451.0006 Posts: 2184 | From: Burnaby, British Columbia,Canada | Registered: Nov 2001
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I think alot of people assume that Joe and I got into this business from Dad, but he never pushed us to do anything in the sign business. In fact if anything he promoted doing our own thing. We worked at the shop when we were kids pushing brooms and the like, but I never considered it a career path until much later in life. In fact the first real sign job I took as far as a career move wasn't for Diaz Sign Art or even in Pontiac. I worked for several years in Bloomington/Normal at Prairie Signs, and basically re-started from the bottom there. So, I guess I would be one of the "anointed ones" twice or three times depending on how you look at it. The thing is, with this business, all of us are always learning new things. Even if you have been doing signs for 40 years there is always going to be a new product that you are going to need to re-learn. I think you just need to have a passion for what you are doing and the ability to never give up on learning new things to be successful in this business. But, it does help to be part of a business that has a great reputation for over 30 years.
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Self-taught... although I am one of those [don't have a clue, no-talent] Graphic Design Degreed people that I read so many negative posts about. hehehe.
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It seems kind of natural in some ways that I ended up in the sign trade since I have had, from an early age, a fascination with typefaces. In high school, I could duplicate any of the fonts that were commonly used at the time for typing and occasionally produced "typewritten" notes for other students.
Although I’ve always been artistic, I was never skilled enough that I was in any danger of being paid strictly to be an artist. Working on signs has given me an outlet to focus what art ability I do have into a somewhat viable market.
A broken leg actually got me started in the sign profession in my late teens. I had been supporting my full time ministry by doing landscaping until I fractured my fibula playing soccer with a baseball at a driving range and was no longer able to mow lawns or plant shrubs until I recovered. Yes–it’s a long story... and besides that I was winning!
A friend, Jim Sanders, who owned a sign service company, hired me to drive around at night spotting signs that had portions of the lighting not working properly. When my leg healed, he put me on a repair truck where I learned electrical service and crane operation, also gaining valuable experience in sign fabrication and installation. When I married Sophie, Jim did not have enough work to support us so I started working on my own. Other than a short stint at another company in 1974, I’ve worked for myself ever since.
I’ve been to many sign meets, ask plenty of questions, read everything I can get my hands on, and do lots of experimenting on techniques I’ve seen, read about, thought of, or stumbled upon by accident. Some might call that “self taught” but it’s probably more accurately “self taught by others”.
-------------------- David Harding A Sign of Excellence Carrollton, TX Posts: 5084 | From: Carrollton, TX, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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quote: for typing and occasionally produced "typewritten" notes for other students.
Too funny Dave Reminded me that My very first graphics I ever did were fake IDs in Graphic Ats class in HS. Was the beginning of a not so glamorous life of a criminal for a few years.
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Bill... You too? Does that mean that you young boys actually obtained beer illegally and got out of classes with fake notes? I thought I was the only one here who was a master forger in HS.
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Like Glenn at Creative I grew up in the business. Kind of in my blood. There never was any talk of doing anything else. It was my parent's shop before it was mine. My dad was a high fidelity pictorial artist (fancy name for billboard artist) and goldleafer who had the gift of woodcarving too, so I was fortunate to see top notch work all of my life. Makes you appreciate the trade all the more. I started out blocking out and finish coating 4x8's and cutting sandblast mask before the plotter was around. My dad has been gone since 01 and if it weren't for the Letterheads I'd be lost in times of trouble or when I need to go to a place where I feel at home with kindred spirits. So grateful for this place.
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I thought I was the only one here who was a master forger in HS.
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