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Since there is little to do right now at the end of the day, I may just as well write something down and then go home.
Much has been said lately about the economy and the tightening of the belt that most of us are presently experiencing. I've been talking to folks around the country and keep hearing many of the same stories.
Most of us want to point a finger at someone and put the blame on them. I'm no different. But that doesn't solve the problem.
The situation I find myself in is certainly a result of today's economic situation, but it is also has a lot to do with my own lack of preparation. It's no secret that I'm not a financial genius, so most of what I'm experiencing is a because of a lack of planning on my part. For the most part I have been operating on the ragged edge for a number of years - just bringing enough in to make the bills. Now that less is coming in there a lot of folks that aren't getting paid. That makes for some unpleasant people.
What I've noticed is that the result is a fear that has changed the way I operate. Now more mistakes are being made because my mind is somewhere else other than on the task at hand. I also find that I question myself a lot more than usual - both in designing and trying to sell those designs. Doubt creeps in. "Do I really need to be this particular?" Why not just knock the stuff out and try to get what I can for it?
It's very easy to become depressed and question every small decision. November was anticipated as the month everything was going to turn around but it was the worst income month since I went in business 18 years ago.
It takes about $15,000 a month to open the doors here each month and November took in $4,000. Now, I'm not a math wizard, but that is going in the hole big time.
So, where do we go from here? Just about the time I'm ready to lock the door and turn the key into the landlord, I get a call from Dan Sawatzky and tomorrow looks a lot brighter.
So, tonight I will go home to a loving, beautiful wife and the world will seem a lot more enjoyable. In the morning, I will unlock the door and make another stab at it.
It will get better eventually....and December will be the month where everything turns around. Or maybe January. In the meantime I will keep making the calls and knocking on the doors. It sure beats working for a living.
-------------------- Chapman Sign Studio Temple, Texas chapmanstudio@sbcglobal.net Posts: 6306 | From: Temple, Texas, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Well... the recession is officially over in our shop. Now I just have to get some jobs! It's almost too late to have a good month this month with the holidays and all. But I hear January is going to be a GREAT month. Spread the word!
In the meantime I'm dreaming up some of the coolest projects imaginable! You haven't seen nothing yet!
Dreaming hard in Yarrow...
-grampa dan
-------------------- Dan Sawatzky Imagination Corporation Yarrow, British Columbia dan@imaginationcorporation.com http://www.imaginationcorporation.com
Being a grampa is one of the the most wonderful things in the world!!! Posts: 8738 | From: Yarrow, B.C. Canada | Registered: Nov 1998
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grampa Dan sure brightens up my outlook and brings a smile to my face when reading his posts as well Raymond, but doesn't actually help in my lifestyle. I on the other hand foresaw this economy several years ago and learned to live a low key life back then so to speak. My output has always been more than what I brought in but bought things that I could live with for years to come. Jeff Crank once said to me that he couldn't believe how little I could live on but yet I had just about everything anyone would ever need. These days I rarely work doing any kind of artwork and am more interested in being comfortable, relaxed and hopefully finish some work I have do on my 64 in order to be running by June. Yes the economy sucks but I will not point my fingers and blame others as I have always taken responsibility for my own actions unlike those who haven't my attitude. I never wanted to be big in anything other then quality and never opened my doors only to pay out more in taxes and fees for someone whose never worked by my side. I was born and raised in this country of ours and never saw past my family and my own needs so I guess it all depends on how we've been brought up and what is important to us that makes one do what they do but I could never see why one needed so much from others in order to make their life exceed. I actually got a lot to say but never really think how it will effect others until its too late as I speak from my heart and not from some silly book.
oops, I gotta go.......
-------------------- HotLines Joey Madden - pinstriping since 1952 'Perfection, its what I look for and what I live for'
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I wish you guys the very best in the days ahead and sincerely hope that things turn around bigtime. It is so slow here that the police are walking to catch speeders. Just yesterday, I dropped a hammer and it took an hour and a half to hit the ground...like I said, it's slow here!
Happy holidays and MERRY CHRISTMAS!!
-------------------- Frisby Signs, Inc. El Dorado, Arkansas Posts: 902 | From: El Dorado, Arkansas, USA | Registered: Apr 1999
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I had to comment after reading this. Ray, I have really learned many things from your articles in Sign Craft magazine and here at Letterville. You do really great work and with a good reputation for that kind of work, things will pick up. It takes people a while but they eventually come back to where they get the best signs for their money. It's not always about lowest price.
In the meantime, we all have to conserve, save, cut back and buy smart on materials. Keep the faith, Ray and continue your high standard of quality which will inspire many of us to do the same. I hope you remain positive and will be posting how things have improved and you were worrying for nothing!
Sign-cerely, Steve Luck
-------------------- Steve Luck Sign Magic Inc. 2718-b Grovelin Godfrey, Illinois 62035 (618)466-9120 signmagic@sbcglobal.net Posts: 870 | From: 2718-b Grovelin Godfrey, Illinois 62035 | Registered: Dec 2004
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I honestly don't know if the "high end" work we are known for will return or not. I know it's not selling very well right now.
I've struggled for two years with a decision to limit my business to the high end work I enjoy, or expand the lower end of my business, which is normally more than half my volume and is now 75% of my total.
Lately I've been thinking I really have no choice. My competitive advantage in "cheap" signs is non existent. We like to think it's design, then complain that these customers don't appreciate good design. There are a number of threads running right no that confirm this.
I used to work for a large chain of home centers, before there was a place called Home Depot. When HD came in they changed the rules. The competitive environment was never the same again and the chain I worked for, with $1 billion is sales, was out of business in five years. In order to compete with HD you needed a competitive advantage. Lowe's decided to build stores very much like Home Depot's, except cleaner with better presentations. They survived. Local lumber yards that focused on selling high quality lumber and millwork, primarily to builders, also survived.
Every one in the middle, and there were many, died.
My point is if we go toward the middle, we will also die. We will be more expensive than the cheap guys and not enough better. We'll either have to find a way to be as inexpensive or be obviously, noticeably, no question about it better. When I worked with Jon Aston on this a few years ago, he described it as "they cost more, but they're worth it".
This is Dan's philosophy. Even he is finding it difficult this year. But if you're not going to take the high road, you better get down and dirty on price.
Remember, the middle road is the first to close.
-------------------- Paul Luszcz Zebra Visuals 27 Water Street Plymouth, MA 02360 508 746-9200 paul@zebravisuals.com Posts: 483 | From: 27 Water Street, Plymouth, MA 02360 | Registered: Jul 2003
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Paul, I have been thinking so much along the same lines. This bad economy isn't the only thing hurting us but exposing our weaknesses. There is another shift in the business model for us sign people and it going to weed out more of us.
Selling design isn't going to cut it anymore though it is vital to still require it among ourselves. Banners, magnetics, plain substrate signs are going to the lowest bidder and most customers don't give squat who does it. Your home improvement store analogy is right on. We have to adapt more but which way and how?
High end work, less mom and pop sales/more corporate. Customer service, custom installs, dimensional (obviously), and more that I need ideas and direction myself.
It is tough and going to get more so. The vinyl cutter weeded out (ha ha) a lot of old school painters who wouldn't adapt. Now this new shift in the way signs are printed and their low prices (by our standards) is doing it again.
Keeping out of debt and low overhead obviously would help too.
-------------------- Wright Signs Wyandotte, Michigan Posts: 2785 | From: Wyandotte, MI USA | Registered: Jan 1999
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I was wondering Ray, is your overhead pretty normal for most signshops? Mine is nowhere near that. If it was, I would be out of business in one month. In my area, the cost of living is alot lower than where most of you guys live, and because of that,Im able to keep my overhead low and make better profits. I probably dont do half of what most you guys do in business, so if I had that high of a overhead, I would be working at something else for sure. I was just wondering. Always enjoyed your work Ray, and you are top of the line. I hope things pick up like mad for you.
[ December 09, 2009, 11:51 AM: Message edited by: John Deaton ]
-------------------- Maker of fine signs and other creative stuff. Located at 109 N. Cumberland ave. Harlan, Ky. 40831 606-837-0242 Posts: 4172 | From: Ages-Brookside, Ky. Up the Holler... | Registered: Jul 1999
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We are struggling with overhead also. Trying to cut back but we are already running lean. Too many regulated expenses - business licenses, biz liability insurance, property insurance, vehicle insurance, health insurance,contractors license to pull permits, rent, advertising, phone, internet, utilities, security, etc, etc. But I have faith that things will eventually turn around. I used to work out of my home but we couldn't have credibility to get the type of jobs we want as a home-based operation. Our house is small and not zoned for business. If we can hang on til things get better we'll have it made.
-------------------- Jean Shimp Shimp Sign & Design Co. Jacksonville Beach, Fl Posts: 1266 | From: Jacksonville Beach, Fl. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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I was talking with a fellow sign maker yesterday. They have twelve people working in their shop. In looking to streamline their business they brought in an expert who took a close look at the business they were doing.
By taking a close look they discovered that 70% of their business was walk ins... small work which didn't fetch a high dollar. When the dust settled they discovered they only made 4% of the overall shop profit on this work despite it taking 70% of their time and effort. Now they concentrate on the higher end work and have become a LOT more profitable with a LOT less stress.
This is the model we also use in our shop. While I may be very slow at times the few jobs we do take on are well worth it. In the slow times we now are experiencing we are certainly down. But I'm not about to grab everything that comes in the door to simply keep busy. Long term we will hold the course.
Good times are just around the corner once again in Yarrow...
-grampa dan
-------------------- Dan Sawatzky Imagination Corporation Yarrow, British Columbia dan@imaginationcorporation.com http://www.imaginationcorporation.com
Being a grampa is one of the the most wonderful things in the world!!! Posts: 8738 | From: Yarrow, B.C. Canada | Registered: Nov 1998
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yeah 15k is a big nut to crack every month...i used to need to do $7500/mo in signs by myself, so i know it's hard. thankfully my overhead is alot lower these days after paying off equipment. i decided this year that signs was going to be a part time gig for me. and buh bye router. i never made decent $ in dimensional signage for all the bullshyt that was involved. i like fast and easy $ thank you. even though i may only do $4-5k/mo now in signs, i have to say the profit margin seems much better. plus the $ from my other gig is all $ for my time. no materials, equipment etc. so that brings the margin up even more. i think people in this business need to look at what is making them the best net and concentrate on that. for me, personally, the sign business is a better part time gig. i only recently became "okay" with not being able to do every project. i can't be everything to everyone...then there would be nothing left of me!
-------------------- Karyn Bush Simply Not Ordinary, LLC Bartlett, NH 603-383-9955 www.snosigns.com info@snosigns.com Posts: 3516 | From: Bartlett, NH USA | Registered: Jan 2001
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John - I'm not sure if my overhead is normal or not because I don't know what other folks have to pay for....I'm probably a little higher than normal (whatever that is).
I have one employee which means that in addition to his salary I have taxes, hospital insurance, and I also pay for his pickup insurance since we use his vehicle for installations and such.
Taxes and insurance take a big chunk, along with payments on computers and equipment, rent and utilities, and credit cards (which is the greatest evil ever invented).
Then there is a truck payment and all the expenses that go with a vehicle. Included are payments to suppliers, Lowe's, Home Depot and such.
Little by little it all adds us.
-------------------- Chapman Sign Studio Temple, Texas chapmanstudio@sbcglobal.net Posts: 6306 | From: Temple, Texas, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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I'm getting ready to go back to a one man operation and be selective about projects that I can do alone or with little help. We have little overhead and live above the shop, no routers, no big payments and minimal payroll.
I've tracked it all and the fancy stuff eats up so much time and materials that it just doesn't seem to pay off unless you are in the super high-end or large work. Magazine quality work has been a blast, but not very profitable. The risk of falling off ladders and such is not as fun anymore, either.
I will be working on my art and small signs and trucks mostly in the near future as well as promoting more logo and graphic design services.
If any of you need help with design, let me know. I'll be available for freelance work.
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I have to do about $40,000 a month to break even, that's a lot of work, sometimes we exceed, and other times a little lower... I'm finding that the little jobs, and by little I mean $300-500 is whats profitable.. but so can the bigger orders that require only the same type of materials... decals and labels are decent profit margin as well... I also find that certain vehicle lettering jobs just are not worth it... the simple vehicle jobs are more lucrative. I just landed a 12 grand vehicle job that is made up of many trucks, but they are all the same, and a straight forward install... nice job to get this time of year....
I feel for you Ray, I really do, same goes for the others... even though I'm busy, I really wish there was more profit... my expenses are just to high, but I'm trimming, I just paid off the VersaCamm and just a few more payments on the Edge FX.... also next year when the leases are up on the trucks, I'm going to go for something a little less expensive to operate.
I am fortunate, that I have never had to knock on a door for work, but then there's 30 years of experience behind me...and I'm also not cocky enough to get too comfortable..., Yes I have issues. lol
Good Luck! I wish the very best for everyone.
-------------------- "Keep Positive"
SIGNS1st. Neil Butler Paradise, NF Posts: 6277 | From: St. John's NF Canada | Registered: Mar 1999
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Thanks Neil, I've been reluctant to chime in on this thread until you posted. My nut is like Dan's at $1000 a day. However, I honestly don't believe our business model or our talents are nowhere near his level. I've taken a serious intospective analysis of our operation and have concluded that our business model is diametrically opposite to Dan's. We take on a wide gamut of sign biz...from decals for a teenagers cars windshield to banners for a boy scout troop to point-of-purchase store displays for Bsss Pro Shops. We letter airplanes, boats, trucks, vans, trailers, jet skis, and even golf carts. Nothing worthy of a SignCraft article but good enough to create some word of mouth promotion. This might **** some Letterheads off, but I've often thought that many of you have been preaching the high priced artistic model of our industry and diminished lesser, blue collar approaches to sign communication. At one point I discovered that many of the elite letterhead community have spouses who have traditional jobs that support your ability to refuse simple jobs such as yard signs and magnets. When a guy like Wayne Webb asks about pricing an HDU rectangle on his router, the predominant response is to tell him how he is unrealistic about stating his idea of a reasonable price. Well, I say do what you have to in order to survive. Sometimes we all make great profits on projects and sometimees we make wages...the trick is NOT to lose money.
I am inspired by the talent in our industry and appreciate the sharing of information on this site. However, I can also relate to the guys and gals who make a living at this field by producing non glamorous effective and professional sign products that never make the trade journals.
Maybe the "Quickie Sticky" guys making $500K a year have a place in our industy worthy of emulation.
-------------------- Tony Lucero Eagle Graphics Waterford, MI www.eaglegph.com Posts: 305 | From: Waterford, MI, USA | Registered: Apr 2000
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Tony you reflect my operation almost to a "T"...one thing I forgot to mention is that I do get to do Airbrushing and striping on occasion, Airbrushing during the winter months and striping during the summer, so I get to paint as well, so that is very satisfying.... I really should be doing much better for what I'm doing but a few bad decisions years ago have kept me a little behind, besides all the sickness and death in my family over the last few years.... but hopefully 2010 will be a turning point...One other thing, where I live we have not experienced any kind of recession at all, business is brisk, but our cost of living especially housing is out of control.
-------------------- "Keep Positive"
SIGNS1st. Neil Butler Paradise, NF Posts: 6277 | From: St. John's NF Canada | Registered: Mar 1999
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quote: Maybe the "Quickie Sticky" guys making $500K a year have a place in our industy worthy of emulation.
I hear you Tony, but there is the old saying "Money don't buy happiness".
Money is just a utility - a means to an end. A $100 note in itself is maybe worth 2 cents. It's what that 2 cents now represents - a $100 of purchasing power.
Each to their own. I make ok money - just not as often as I would like - but I am totally at one with the world. Nothing in my life saddens me. I wish for no more. Would be nice - but never on my mind. I admire talent and knowledge, and the ability to share and give. Money no longer impresses nor inspires me. But someone saying "that's Art - I wish I could do that"... well to me that's worth a million dollars.
Any object is only worth what someone is prepared to pay. The closer to their liking the higher the premium you can command. It's a fickle world. But many have made millions only to depart and have no real long term benefit. Many like the "Gentlemen" of Letterville - (each in their own way) the likes of Bill Reidel, Si, OP, Bushy, and Hotlines all seem to have such a handle on life. It's all too easy to agree with the norm. Human nature. It's when someone puts a differing slant on things that to consider that experience and knowledge - now that's power.
Emulation can take many forms. I might be good at licky sticky and make good dollars - but no use having dollars when all I am in the eyes of others - is an idiot.
-------------------- Gregg Sydney Signworks (02) 9837 1198 Schofields NSW Australia Posts: 368 | From: Schofields | Registered: May 2007
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As I mentioned back 2 years ago things were rocking and they had been for the past 8 years. Ive never been much of an inventory freak unless something went on sale. I always kept low-profile and let those dreams of a 14 man sign shop with lots of trucks pass me by, I didnt want it to OWN ME! and the older I got I realized it would.
Being self employed makes you realize you dont know whats going to happen next year. I paid off everything I owned when things were great. I was turning out high end jobs one on top of the other. It was the best times. NOW here we are. Money is not coming in and Im cranking out crap, that 2 years ago I would have turned down. A couple of shops have closed. The ones that did , didnt matter anyway.
This is not a post about "look at me" its about finances and being able to handle yours and adjust to the changes. We as business owners have the wonderful advantage of making the best money we can. Sometimes it seems it wont come but it time it does and when it does we should always think back to the days we had none and treat it with responsibility and respect. Ive seen poeple **** away money on stuff that has no worth. money is hard to come by and I grab and save every dime I can and still do right now.
This times we are going thru now is a great opportunity to "redo" your finances, cut back and learn to be respnsible IF you are not already
-------------------- You ever notice how easily accessible people are when they are requiring your services but once they get invoice you can't reach them anymore
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Greg, have you noticed that buying materials that come from the USA that the minute our dollar is suffering that you get thiose letters from the suppliers that say "due to rising costs, fuel etc. and a low dollar value etc etc" that prices must go up? Have you noticed that now opur $ is very nearly parity, that the same suppliers are very quiet. I think this is why we are not feeling the pinch as badly as our US brothers.The material prices are not going up and there is no reason why we can't maintain a decent price for our work, disregarding "vinyl jockies" as there are still customers out there who are willing to pay for quality. Money will buy happiness as you must invest it while you can for later in life, as the people who you "helped" will not come back and say you looked after me when i started in business and i would now like to help you with your retirement.
-------------------- Drane Signs Sunshine Coast Nambour, Qld. dranesigns@bigpond.com Downunder "To err is human, but to really foul things up requires a computer" Posts: 965 | From: Nambour, Qld. Australia | Registered: Nov 1998
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I almost for guilty for being so busy all year. Remember when things slowed up for me and I had to get a real job back in 2005? And a few people here blamed my lack of income on my attitude. That stung! There was simply NO work. So of course I was depressed and grouchy. Scared even, I had a house to pay for and three kids to feed.
I still do not know why my business picked up come 2007. This has been my most productive and busiest year ever. I even bought a new plotter last month and retired the old 4E.
I have never really produced magazine-quality work, just simple stuff. There is already an established sandblasted sign shop here, and I don't like to make those anyway. Why buy a printer when I can sub out prints to a very reliable source and help to keep his printer running? I wouldn't want to have to learn how to run a router. It's hard enough for me to tinker with this newfangled plotter.
On my best month I bring in about $4K, my worst about $1500. My house is paid for and I have no employees. I still have three kids to feed.
I was lucky enough to pay cash for my plotter (and proud of it!) There are new shops opening around me almost daily. But I still get my old reliable clients. I have not lowered my prices nor will I.
I keep it simple, I always have. That's what works best for me. The older I get, the more I do not want to do anything I don't love to do. I still love to design, and I still love the satisfaction when something actually turns out right. I still do coro signs! And cut vynull and occasionally paint. I still complain about price shoppers and I still get defensive sometimes.
But 2010 will begin my 25th year of making signs. What doesn't kill us makes us stronger... Chin up, Raymond. This sure does beat a real job. Love....Jill
Posts: 8834 | From: Butler, PA, USA | Registered: Jan 2001
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I feel like I operate on another planet. We are home based, work out of our car and the only bills we have related to the business, ones we wouldn't have if we punched a clock somewhere are the material bills which run around $250 a month.
[ December 10, 2009, 09:57 AM: Message edited by: George Perkins ]
-------------------- George Perkins Millington,TN. goatwell@bigriver.net
"I started out with nothing and still have most of it left"
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Gregg, I don't think it has to be an either/or situation. Money doesn't buy happiness but poverty and stress create misery.
If you consider yourself any kind of business person you had better do jobs that make you money and help with the cash flow. We have all seen truly great artisans here give up or go into a different line because of burnout and bad finances.
I do both types but I also have been doing fine art at home for many years as a form of fullfillment. It doesn't all have to come between 9 and 5. If it does than you will find those types are there from 9 till 9 trying to make it.
-------------------- Wright Signs Wyandotte, Michigan Posts: 2785 | From: Wyandotte, MI USA | Registered: Jan 1999
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Gregg, I'm also doing the art for the same reason. The creativity thing. Not selling like hotcakes, but selling. If I can reorganize the sign/design end of things, make some profit and go make art at night or whatever to satisfy the creative urges I'm fine with that. The hassles, customers, material failures, permits and all...I'm kind of tired of after 27 years.
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
It's almost too late to have a good month this month with the holidays and all. But I hear January is going to be a GREAT month. Spread the word!
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