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» The Letterville BullBoard » Letterhead/Pinstriper Talk » Cart Before the Horse

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Author Topic: Cart Before the Horse
W. R. Pickett
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...If we want to be taken seriously, our sign work has to be effective. Sign makers need to learn HOW to DESIGN before learning 'fancy' techniques. This error is really evident on vehicle wraps, where a Photoshop guru will throw all of their tricks into work that doesn't preform it's job of advertising very well (to say the least). On some sign forums recently, one young lady was showing off a gold leaf piece she made after taking a gilding class. While it demonstrated her new skills at esoteric glass work, it plainly revealed that she still had yet to learn basic sign design.

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WR Pickett
Richmond, Va.

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Rene Giroux
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It is the cancer chewing away at our industry and the simple key is education. Books, trade magazines, courses, seminars, etc all seem to be too expensive and time consuming for most and yet the resourses are there to pump 50-60k's in machinery, tons of CD's with canned art and when the design doesn't work, they call their tech support.

Anyone can learn design and everyone that does will get better. It doesn't mean that natural talent will not be a factor, but the goal is to keep working at it.

The other secret word is passion, without it, signmaking is just a job !

[ September 30, 2009, 08:00 AM: Message edited by: Rene Giroux ]

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Rene Giroux
Perfexion.ca
Gatineau, QC.

www.renegiroux.com


I'd rather regret things I did than things I didn't do!

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Shane Durnford
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We all get side tracked at some time or other and get seduced by new technology or get wrapped up in the doing. When you think of it, signs are just another form of communication. The first criteria should be what do we want to say.

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Shane Durnford
Shane Durnford Design
142 Mill Street, Creemore, ON, L0M 1G0

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Janette Balogh
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I have a wonderful designer friend who owns an ad agency, and for whom I've done signwork for many years. We are both "old school" and come from a place where things like typography, colour, layout balance etc, and probably most importantly, creative and innovative thought are things of importance for our field.

We often "vent" with each other when we engage in shop talks, about the qualifications coming out of design schools now, and how they are more realiant on software knowledge and special effects, than good design principles.

We have a one liner now between us when we talk about these so called "designers". We quip ... "but hey, they can push bevel!" hahaa.... that just says it all.

~nettie

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"When Love and Skill Work Together ... Expect a Masterpiece"

Janette Balogh
Creative Studio

janette@janettebalogh.com
www.janettebalogh.com

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Dan Antonelli
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Haha - very funny Nettie.

I firmly believe that 95% of all wraps are worthless - and I really don't think that's an exaggeration. A look in a recent trade magazine confirms that the editors themselves don't have a clue, either, on what effective vehicle advertising consists of. Most are a blur of color and photoshop fills, which may attract attention - but serves no marketing purpose.

Most wrap designers should study outdoor advertising and billboard design before attempting to do the same on a vehicle. For the most part the same rules of legibility and simplicity apply.

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Dan Antonelli
Graphic D-Signs, Inc.
279 Route 31 South • Suite 4
Washington, NJ
www.graphicd-signs.com
dan@graphicd-signs.com

"Some are born to move the world, to live their fantasies. But most of us just dream about the things we'd like to be." - Rush

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George Perkins
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Dan, even the outdoor has gone downhill considerably in recent years, at least in this neck of the woods.
A general slide to mediocrity is running rampant in all fields of design and a lot of it is due to the computer. Before, it didn't matter the field, signs, print, outdoor you had to spend time learning ALL aspects of the trade. There was a certain level of work that all shops turned out. If you couldn't produce that level, you couldn't get hired. Not so now.
Good design was learned along with letter construction. How many people in the sign trade today can layout a letter without the computer???
The general public has little, if any understanding of good design. The fact that they are willing to pay for the horrendous wraps is proof of that. These same people, the general public, are the ones entering the various trades that require design skills. If they can't recognise good design as the general public why should we expect them to produce it?
Why isn't it being taught....good question, but just how many people entering these trades figure they need any training, heck, isn't that what the machine is for?

I had a bit of an epiphany the other day. Denise and I have been together for six years. She works with me on most projects although the sign /lettering end of things is pretty much left up to me. She does , however, take an interest and asks questions all the time regarding layouts etc. She saw a sign the other day she thought looked good ( I would have given it a 6.5 maybe a 7 on a 1-10 scale. I pointed out a few design flaws. She commented " gee, after all these years, you still see things I don't see!" Now here is someone who sits somewhere between the general public and a good designer and she is having trouble seeing things...what friggin hope is there for the average person?

What it comes down to is most folks entering the trades these days are oblivious to the need good design. Crap sells just fine, why bother educating anybody, let alone themselves? Could it be that some of the folks teaching are some of these same people?

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George Perkins
Millington,TN.
goatwell@bigriver.net

"I started out with nothing and still have most of it left"

www.perkinsartworks.com

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Doug Allan
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quote:
Originally posted by George Perkins:

She saw a sign the other day she thought looked good ( I would have given it a 6.5 maybe a 7 on a 1-10 scale. I pointed out a few design flaws. She commented " gee, after all these years, you still see things I don't see!"

I think she was right... it did look "good", which is better than average these days... it just didn't look "Great"

quote:
Originally posted by George Perkins:

Now here is someone who sits somewhere between the general public and a good designer and she is having trouble seeing things...what friggin hope is there for the average person?

I guess we can define "somewhere" as 6.5 maybe a 7 on a 1-10 scale. [Big Grin]

I think the bigger problem is all the work sitting at 3.5, maybe 4 on a 1-10 scale...

I agree that many (if not most) clients can't tell the difference, but it is our subconscious minds that ignore low contrast illegible messages & respond to attractive impressions that pop and sizzle... so while we can't easily change the masses we have no friggin' hope for...

We can try to use an explanation of the subconscious advantages to our clients target market, when we discuss our layouts... and when we define "who we are" in our own marketing pieces...

As a draftsman, I knew the building code & the structural requirements to draw a "correct" blueprint... but while drawing, I would pride myself on even consistent line weights, rotating the pencil while drawing, to keep a sharp point, & starting lines at either (both) end, feathering it out & returning in the other direction... to create sharp terminations on both ends, while minimizing any heavy deposits of lead at the overlap in the center...

The point of that little tangent, is that striving to push our artistic endeavors into the top 10% of excellence, instead of settling for 6.5 maybe a 7 on a 1-10 scale is not always going to be appreciated, but it's also not that much more difficult for those of you who can do it.

I might be one of the 7 scale guys, and it didn't all come naturally, so pushing myself to 8 or 9 takes work...

Anyway, I'm probably not making sense.. I do think poor signs are a majority & it's a damn shame... but good design can be sold on the merits of effectiveness over poor design... great design is certainly going to be more effective... but I believe selling great over good is not going to work for everyone... so once you are "good", I think striving to be "great" is a labor of love, without guarantees.

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Doug Allan
http://www.islandsign.com

"you get what you settle for"

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Paul Luszcz
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Oddly, I have found it extremely difficult to sell the merits of effectiveness over poor design, but very easy to sell attractiveness over ugly.

Incorporate effectiveness in attractive designs and it's an easy sell that benefits both sides.

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Paul Luszcz
Zebra Visuals
27 Water Street
Plymouth, MA 02360
508 746-9200
paul@zebravisuals.com

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Doug Allan
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I hate it when I need 200 words to say something poorly, & another guy can effectively say the same thing in 20...

but, yes... when ugly is the alternative (3.5 to 4 scale)... "attractive" sells! (7 scale)

...and sometimes we just throw in effectiveness (8-10 scale)for free!

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Doug Allan
http://www.islandsign.com

"you get what you settle for"

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W. R. Pickett
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...My old sign painter journeyman who advised me, once said
"A poorly painted sign with a good layout was much more effective than a perfectly painted one with a poor design.

...One thing about signs, is that the skill or ineptitude of the creator will always be plainly evident in their finished product. And so what if clients don't know what a good design is, WE DO! I strive to design signs as if they will be inspected (very closely) by my contemporary Letterheads.

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WR Pickett
Richmond, Va.

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bill riedel
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It is good to know that I am not the only one who thinks that wraps are the most difficult to read, let alone figure what they are advertising. It is a way to load the vehicle with too much copy and graphics, similar to the sign that has every inch covered with lettering and no one has the time to read it all.
Bring back the good old days.
Bill

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Bill Riedel
Riedel Sign Co., Inc.
15 Warren Street
Little Ferry, N.J. 07643
billsr@riedelsignco.com

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Glenn Taylor
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A client came into the shop the other day and in the course of the conversation asked if we did wraps. He then proceeded to tell me about a "really cool one" he saw while driving down I-95. He talked about how the print had a diamond-plate pattern and chrome and flames and all the "cool" stuff.

I asked what was the name of the business on the truck.

He stopped to think for a moment and then admitted he couldn't remember.

So I asked, "If the purpose of the wrap was to advertise this guy's business, how effective was it?"

An eyebrow went up and the lightbulb came on.

.

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BlueDog Graphics
Wilson, NC

www.BlueDogUSA.com

Warning: A well designed sign may cause fatigue due to increased business.

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Dan Antonelli
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Look back at early SignCraft issues - some issues had what was called 'Supergraphics' which were just awesome pieces of advertising, just done really large- on a van or truck. A lot could be learned by studying that work - and I know it sure plays a role in how I design today.

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Dan Antonelli
Graphic D-Signs, Inc.
279 Route 31 South • Suite 4
Washington, NJ
www.graphicd-signs.com
dan@graphicd-signs.com

"Some are born to move the world, to live their fantasies. But most of us just dream about the things we'd like to be." - Rush

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Tim Barrow
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Thats because back then if you did the super graphics the design had to be reproduced by hand and the thought process in designing them was kept simplistic. There wasn't a mouse to click yourself into a corner and undo was a very time consuming and costly endeavor. The thought process involved actually producing the end product instead of just clicking the print button in a window.I'm not knocking the computer,as it is a very effective tool,just the mentality,.. that if i can afford the software,.. I have the skills,..in todays workplace.
It wasn't a simple mouse click to stuff a line of copy into the space where the customer wanted it,and folks had to fight tooth and nail to keep designs from becoming overly complicated and ineffective.
And George makes a very good point. In the outdoor field if a design didn't work before digital printing it was a helluva lot of work and a costly endeavor to send a crew out to fix an ad that didn't read or was inefective due to a simple design flaw,...alot of the stuff I see on billboards today would have gotten someone fired twenty years ago,.....

[ September 30, 2009, 04:48 PM: Message edited by: Tim Barrow ]

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fly low...timi/NC is,
Tim Barrow
Barrow Art Signs
Winston-Salem,NC

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George Perkins
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We seem to have lost the "standards" we had years back. Back when I first got in the business there were basically three types of shops, the commercial, the independent and the hacks. The commercial shop usually had two or more journeymen working at it. Outdoor shops fell into this category. They had a standard of work that they put out. This was an industry wide standard. It was the same from town to town across the country. No crap of any kind ever left the doors of one of these shops. The work was always well designed and readable. Most journeymen came up through the ranks of apprenticeships. They knew everything from layout (design) letter construction, spacing, color usage...everything.

The independents were usually one man shops a lot of times run out of a garage or basement. A lot of these shops were run by former commercial shop journeyman. Most of these shops followed the same standards of the commercial shops. They often worked in a much looser style but the work was always well designed and readable. Some independents never got the proper training and there work was a little below the former mentioned standards but it was still fairly decent and they tried and cared about what they did. Independents tended to work a little cheaper than the commercial shops but not by a big amount.

The hacks...the work was terrible, they worked dirt cheap...they didn't give a crap about standards and couldn't produce that type work if they had to. They knew very little about the trade and cared even less.

Back then the majority of shops were commercial and independents. The hacks were in the minority. The crap work was in the minority.

I look around today and a good 60-75% of what I see wouldn't make the cut of the "standard" That figure jumps to 75-95% when the digital printers come into play.

Has ugly and unreadable become today's standard??????? [Frown]

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George Perkins
Millington,TN.
goatwell@bigriver.net

"I started out with nothing and still have most of it left"

www.perkinsartworks.com

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Gregg Parkes
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The hacks...the work was terrible, they worked dirt cheap...they didn't give a crap about standards and couldn't produce that type work if they had to. They knew very little about the trade and cared even less.
quote:

These days the hacks are called "SignKing" or "GoGo Signs" or whatever. Do they have a projector,protractor, enamel, quill, signmask, mahl stick, pounce, or even a copy of Signcraft?

A GREAT BIG NO !!!!!

Unless it comes in a gallon container and marked C,M,Y, or K chances are they wouldn't know what any of the above actually were.

Don't get me started... oh and on the subject of wraps... I have only ever seen one that even comes close to working and that's made by Ceran.

Cheers

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Gregg
Sydney Signworks
(02) 9837 1198
Schofields NSW Australia

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John Lennig
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Chester Cunningham!

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John Lennig / Big Top Sign Arts
5668 Ewart Street, Burnaby,
British Columbia, Canada
bigtopya@hotmail.com
604.451.0006

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Ian Stewart-Koster
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Yes, John- aahhh, those early signcraft mags!

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"Stewey" on chat

"...there are no limits when you aim for perfection..." Jonathan Livingston Seagull

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W. R. Pickett
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...Now the hacks are called "SLAPPERS"!

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WR Pickett
Richmond, Va.

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bruce ward
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another reason i dont do wraps! first off i cant charge what i need to and sell it AND they all look like crap around here. WHY would you wrap a shole vehicle when in fact you could do a large nice digital print on it and have the same WOWS!

I despise wraps they are useless and a waste of money and time, there is not sense in wrapping a whole vehicle for advertising. the only thing I have wrapped was a box truck and I will keep it that way. I have gotten calls about wraps and I have I expressed how I can do a great layout without wrapping your whole van. when insisting on wrap my prices are double what the tint guy across the river is, plus his layouts are better than mine anyway, he likes to use lightning and flames and faded out images of skulls on a pest control vehicle.

wraps are NOT classy or professional, they are trashy. right now we have 2 state farm agents that have wrapped there trucks. one truck fades from red to gold with the logos and pics all over it...im sorry but red and gold DO NOT FADE together, it looks like sh*t!

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You ever notice how easily accessible people are when they are requiring your services but once they get invoice you can't reach them anymore

http://www.visual-images-signs.com/#!

VISUAL IMAGES
MONTGOMERY, AL


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Joey Madden
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Educating the consumer is your main goal as they see it in a different light.

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HotLines Joey Madden - pinstriping since 1952
'Perfection, its what I look for and what I live for'




http://members.tripod.com/Inflite
http://www.pinheadlounge.com/hotlinesjoeymadden

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Doug Allan
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a good thread is going down hill the more people jump on the bandwagon of trashing wraps... don't get me wrong, I agree that they are worthless eyesores 90% of the time... but to boost egos, trashing an advertising medium still in it's infancy... they stand out enough to irritate designers, because the designs suck... but the designs don't have to suck & the advertising medium can & does work... and it ain't easy... it's a unique design challenge & a very labor intensive installation process... skilled labor, lots of tricks to it, & specialty materials... you don't have to like it, but guys like Dan have put out some good ones, so take the challenge... or don't... writing it off as a worthless waste of your time is a weak way to not take the challenge.

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Doug Allan
http://www.islandsign.com

"you get what you settle for"

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Ricky Jackson
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quote:
Originally posted by W. R. Pickett:
...Now the hacks are called "SLAPPERS"!

LOL, we've gone from Snappers to Slappers; same crapheads, different century.

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Ricky Jackson
Signs Now
614 Russell Parkway
Warner Robins, GA
(478) 923-7722
signpimp50@hotmail.com

"If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants." Sir Issac Newton

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