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» The Letterville BullBoard » Letterhead/Pinstriper Talk » I dont get no respect.

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Author Topic: I dont get no respect.
Buddy Norris
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all you need these days is a plotter and a computer and you're a sign maker. It took me six years to learn how to hand letter and another 21 to "if I may " perfect it. Theres a office supply store here where I live thats doing signs and also a car body shop doing them. At least I know when the computer goes on the blink I can keep working. doesn't that mean anything anymore? yes I have a computer and I do vinyl, but I went through the fire first. I pulled my time hand lettering first.

[ June 12, 2009, 05:31 AM: Message edited by: Buddy Norris ]

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Norris Sign Works
102 Doogle Lane
Shallotte, N.C.
28470

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Si Allen
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That's OK....they will get all the cheapos and you can have all the good customers!

Also ya gotta remamber "Stikkers don't stick to stucco....or brick!"


[Rolling On The Floor] [Rolling On The Floor] [Rolling On The Floor]

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Si Allen #562
La Mirada, CA. USA

(714) 521-4810

si.allen on Skype

siallen@dslextreme.com

"SignPainters do It with Longer Strokes!"

Never mess with your profile while in a drunken stupor!!!

Brushasaurus on Chat

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Glenn Taylor
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Buddy,

That's the wrong attitude.

Anyone can cut vinyl, stick it to something and call it a sign. The question is can they make a good sign. I've got several of those guys in my town, too. I think most of us do. The trick is to know how to use them to your advantage. The first step is to realize that they aren't your problem. You are.

No. I'm not trying to be rude and unkind. I used to feel the same way. Its hard not to. But I've come to realize that the only one I need to compete against is me. I am my own problem. While the other shops and amateur QuickyStickies are in a battle to see who can be the cheapest, I'm the one who gets called to do the nice stuff whether its to hand-letter a wall or do a sandblasted sign. When they call me, they know I'm not going to be giving the work away.

Thanks to them, I was forced learn how to better market my services as well as expand them.

Now, as to using them to your advantage, the first thing is not to get angry with them. They're just trying to put food on the table like everyone else. Become their friends and let them become your sales staff. I get a lot of referrals from them.

A few months ago, another shop thought he could letter an awning for a local awning shop. He unknowingly undercut my price by a couple hundred bucks to get the job. He screwed up royally learning that vinyl doesn't stick to everything and called me to save his bacon. It was an expensive lesson on his part. Now he's farming quite a few jobs to me.

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BlueDog Graphics
Wilson, NC

www.BlueDogUSA.com

Warning: A well designed sign may cause fatigue due to increased business.

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W. R. Pickett
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The ones who can't do hand work don't really make letters, they just make STICKERS.

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WR Pickett
Richmond, Va.

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Doug Allan
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actually, we make logos, digital prints, routed signs, ADA signs, & sign systems...

...oh yeah... & money!

...but I did quote some hand painted lettering on sunbrella today... first time in 6 or 7 years... third time in my life... but I'll plot a pattern, pounce it & break out one of those truck brushes Bushie^ traded me.

Compared to you guys, I consider myself one of the ones who can't do hand work,

...ut we do more than stickers!

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Doug Allan
http://www.islandsign.com

"you get what you settle for"

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Doug Allan
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dangit... there I go again clicking on "quote" when I meant click on "edit" to put the missing "b" back into the word "ut"

[ June 12, 2009, 08:23 AM: Message edited by: Doug Allan ]

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Doug Allan
http://www.islandsign.com

"you get what you settle for"

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Rene Giroux
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Wouldn't it be nice if you could afford a stetoscope and were able to find a pulse on a wrist and "BOOM"... you're a doctor! Or if it was possible to make a living by singing off-key or standing in front of a crowd telling jokes that nobody would laugh at and still made a living from it...

Welcome to the sign industry!!! or any other visual art for that matter, photographers live the same issues on an other forum I bet... If you can put a sticker on a mailbox, you're in business! All you really need to be is the cheaper one in town, isn't this great?

As long as you're trying to get better everyday, you'll be fine. Find a niche where you can make a good living, don't try to do it all and most important, don't try and fight this thing... In the Wal-Mart world of ours where everything is lowered down to the smallest common denominator, one has to pick his battles and leave the rest to the mass.

Hang in there Buddy.... my 2 cents

Oh boy.....can I hear the whistle of the bombs overhead now !!!

[Cool]

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Rene Giroux
Perfexion.ca
Gatineau, QC.

www.renegiroux.com


I'd rather regret things I did than things I didn't do!

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Sean G. Starr
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I've been on both side. I think people just need to find their groove in the industry. When I first started over 20 years ago, my Dad and I were working doing all custom painted work out of the back of his '72 Chevy Caprice Wagon in South Texas. I was in my late teens and thought I could do so much better than that. I moved to Seattle, learned the computer for cut vinyl and large format digital and realized after a few thousand decals that the hand painted work with my dad was the most enjoyable work I had ever done.

I still do a mix of both and my plotter provides a great resource for pen plots, but that's mainly just for the customers that want vinyl only. If I had my druthers, I would be a paint only, custom only shop. Maybe someday. In the meantime I still use the same screwdriver to pop open my 1 Shot cans that my dad used for years.
 -
I consider it my most valuable piece of equipment and it makes me think of pops who died 15 years ago every time I crack open a can of paint.

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Starr Studios
Denton, Texas
http://www.starrstudios.net

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Glenn Taylor
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Polling question: Are you in business to make signs or to make money?

.

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BlueDog Graphics
Wilson, NC

www.BlueDogUSA.com

Warning: A well designed sign may cause fatigue due to increased business.

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Rene Giroux
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GM were not focussed on the product either. It was all about money producing ugly garbage cars for decades and look where that got them.

If you don't focus on both, making signs and money, you're shooting yourself in the foot because then it becomes a battle of the cheapest leaving behind quality work, improving design and skills and dropping the passion.

If I loose a quote to a better design it makes me want to get better. If I lose a quote to cheaper sign... am I just supposed to drop my prices ???

[Cool]

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Rene Giroux
Perfexion.ca
Gatineau, QC.

www.renegiroux.com


I'd rather regret things I did than things I didn't do!

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Russ McMullin
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Hand lettering is a worthy and noble pursuit, and I greatly respect the time and effort that goes into attaining mastery of that skill. What gets tiring is the ego and lack of tact that certain hand letterers have acquired along with their skill. Get over yourselves. It is a skill, but not the only skill worth having.

Good design is not restricted to the medium of paint. Nicely hand-lettered signs are a joy to look at, but hand lettering does not guarantee the good looks of a sign. And, vinyl is not a guarantee of an ugly one.

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Russ McMullin
Tooele, UT
www.mcmullincreative.com

My mind wanders. And that's not a good thing, 'cause it's too small to be out there alone.

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Neil D. Butler
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Well said Russ.. this comes from one of the old school Hand letterers.. If we did'nt get over ourselves we'd be under.. lol... seriously there's a lot of Designers who do good Vinyl work, and also a lot who do crap work, but I'm not so sure about the hand work, people who still do that and make a living have to be good or they would'nt have survived... but please leave the egos at the door.. which I have to say I really don't see people onhere with that ego.. on the contrary really, they are always there to help or lend advice... like Si, Joey, George, the list goes on..

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"Keep Positive"

SIGNS1st.
Neil Butler
Paradise, NF

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Todd Gill
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quote:
The ones who can't do hand work don't really make letters, they just make STICKERS.
I happen to respect people who are creative without regards to the means of output.

Russ said it perfectly.... I've seen some ugly hand painted signs which vinyl letters could improve upon by ten fold.

I'd like to have heard a few of the comments by buggy makers when the first automobiles came out.

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Todd Gill
Outside The Lines
Potterville, MI

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Joey Madden
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Persons who put all their eggs in one basket always have a problem

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HotLines Joey Madden - pinstriping since 1952
'Perfection, its what I look for and what I live for'




http://members.tripod.com/Inflite
http://www.pinheadlounge.com/hotlinesjoeymadden

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Russ McMullin
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Todd, I wasn't going to mention any specific names, but you pretty much made my point with that quote. There is an undercurrent of "you are not worthy to be in this industry if you don't hand letter". It does exist, and it makes people feel unwelcome here.

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Russ McMullin
Tooele, UT
www.mcmullincreative.com

My mind wanders. And that's not a good thing, 'cause it's too small to be out there alone.

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Jon Jantz
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Well, this post and subsequent comments got me to thinking, so I decided to take note of all the signs on my way through town a minute ago. Out of probably a thousand signs, I'd guess less than 1% were hand-lettered.

The ones I noticed looked okay but nothing awe inspiring. Here's the best looking one I found, and I don't think it looks better just because it's hand painted. It could have been made to look just as good in vinyl.

 -

/Ummmm... I'm actually talking about the sign 'on the building'.... but I think I could maybe even improve on the hand-lettered sign by the road as well.

So I agree, without design skills, your work will look like crap no matter what the medium.

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Jon Jantz
Snappysign.com
jjantz21@gmail.com
http://www.allcw.com

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Russ McMullin
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LOL.

Here is something you don't see everyday. hand-lettered banners:
 -

I was driving by and had to snap a photo. Someone in Salt Lake City has some skills.

[ June 12, 2009, 05:57 PM: Message edited by: Russ McMullin ]

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Russ McMullin
Tooele, UT
www.mcmullincreative.com

My mind wanders. And that's not a good thing, 'cause it's too small to be out there alone.

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W. R. Pickett
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...There are so few hand letterers on l'ville (or anywhere for that matter), that nobody needs to worry about hand painters making them feel like they're not welcome in letterville. (Perhaps instead, it's the lowly, primitive brush pushers who feel intimidated by all the techno enthusiasts here?) L'ville is best if it has as many different sides represented as possible.

...The sign industry is broad in types of products, and anybody is as welcome to make a living doing it as the next guy. I'm glad that some of my friends are making good money making signs. Most all of them are very talented business people and some are talented artists too. Buddy's point was the any yahoo who buys a machine can make signs these days. True, but could very many of them make anything without a machine?

... From my experience, hand lettering is not such a great way to make a great fortune! But I don't think that anybody who is really good at it is really doing it for the money though ....Painting things and Hand Lettering is simply fun! Thats why I do it!
.

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WR Pickett
Richmond, Va.

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Si Allen
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Hey Russ! I resemble that remark! [Smile]

85 to 90 per cent of my work is with a brush or quill! But I am not ashamed to slap some vinyl on things when it is appropriate...same with printed!

Only an idiot, or a collossal ego would say that there is only one method to make signs/graphics.

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Si Allen #562
La Mirada, CA. USA

(714) 521-4810

si.allen on Skype

siallen@dslextreme.com

"SignPainters do It with Longer Strokes!"

Never mess with your profile while in a drunken stupor!!!

Brushasaurus on Chat

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Jon Jantz
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On a side note, that Trane van belongs to my dad-in-law and overheated while my wife had it borrowed yesterday.... so we had to leave it there to get worked on....

Gotta hate that.

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Jon Jantz
Snappysign.com
jjantz21@gmail.com
http://www.allcw.com

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Sam Staffan
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quote:
Originally posted by Si Allen:

Also ya gotta remember "Stikkers don't stick to stucco....or brick!"


[Rolling On The Floor] [Rolling On The Floor] [Rolling On The Floor]

Careful Si!

3M's latest innovation is their textured wall graphic film.
This fully laminated and warranted vinyl film will apply directly to brick, cinderblock and stucco walls with the use of high heat.

Specialty foam roller tools are used to conform the material over every bump and curve and even in all the mortar joints !

You get an amazing photographic quality result in much less time than traditional hand painting.

You also get a much more custom look to your graphic over a mounted sign

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Sam Staffan
Mackinaw Art & Sign
721 S. Nokomis St. Mackinaw City, MI
dstaffan@sbcglobal.net

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Sam Staffan
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quote:
Originally posted by Buddy Norris:
It took me six years to learn how to hand letter and another 21 to "if I may " perfect it.

I do very little hand lettering anymore mainly boats when gold leafing.

To your Quote, here is mine.

It took me two years before I would even sell any of my work and the last 20 years perfecting- HOW TO MAKE TOP QUALITY SIGNS OUT OF ALL AVAILABLE MATERIALS, AND TO BE ABLE TO GIVE MY CLIENTS ANYTHING THEY HAVE ASKED FOR AND MORE, EVEN IF AT TIMES IT MEANS JOBBING OUT TO WHOESALERS FOR ASSISTANTS.

Quality signs don't just come from a quill.

And as for perfecting? There is always something better to learn and when it goes out of the shop I am the first to look and say "What can I do to make that even better?"

You can NEVER be perfect, but you AlWAYS can strive for it!

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Sam Staffan
Mackinaw Art & Sign
721 S. Nokomis St. Mackinaw City, MI
dstaffan@sbcglobal.net

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Gregg Parkes
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Been doin' this for thirteen years - self taught in every aspect - when someone asks "what's the best sign you have ever done" I always reply " I havent made it yet".

Brushes... like chisels, plotters, substrates, pounce wheels, paint, squeegees, tape measures... are just a tool in the arsenal to help us get just that little bit closer to your "best" sign.

Yes there are people I admire being able to sling a brush, and yes I wish I could do it. But many that CAN do this have admired my dimensional stuff, and wished they could do it.

Respect is about the person. Admiration is about the work they do. Pretty hard to admire the work of someone you don't respect.

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Gregg
Sydney Signworks
(02) 9837 1198
Schofields NSW Australia

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Brian Scargill
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Hi all,
Respect is a strange concept, I've been hand painting and gilding for over 40 years and am always amazed when I get to a site to begin working because the other workmen there always look at me as if I'm some sort of a painter and decorator and show me no respect at all, but once I begin to 'do the business' and the brushes come out of my old battered signcase and the paint starts to flow their attitude changes and by the end of the job they show me the greatest respect possible, it's a funny old game we play !!

keep pushing the paint guys,
Brian
www.brianthebrushuk.com

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Brian the Brush
brian the brush uk
Yorkshire, UK
www.brianthebrushuk.com

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