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In the past couple of weeks we have had 3 jobs come back from last summer where we used water based primers and the paint is failing. UGH! We always used Chromatic Block out Primer in the past, but the price got SO HIGH that we tried KILZ waterbased. What are you using for primer?
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That's very interesting that you are experiencing a problem with the waterbase KILZ. I am currently re-doing a project done last summer with the oil-based KILZ where the paint failed (it is blistering off). I contacted KILZ and they told me that I should wait at least 3 days to expose the finished project to the elements to allow curing time. My question back to them was "for an EXTERIOR paint I am not to put it outside for 3 days - what about painting a stationary object outside - with an EXTERIOR paint?" They never answered me. Go figure.(Actually the signs were stored inside for several weeks before going outside so that theory didn't work anyway.)
I had assumed I had an incompatability with the top coat which was a water-base paint(Behr). The label on the KILZ specifically specified it was a suitable primer for either oil or latex top coat (not!). Now, I am doing my re-do with the specified Behr primer with the Behr top coat. I can already tell a difference. (I have some panels out with Behr that are 4 - 6 years old and still look like new so I am convienced it was not the topcoat that failed.
Sorry you are having the problem - I feel your pain. I at least feel fortunate that I noticed the problem before my customer did and called it to their attention and offered to provide replacements. Perhaps KILZ had a bunch of bad stuff last year. Personally, I don't think I will ever trust it again.
-------------------- Robert Graham Grahamsville Signs 1120 E McReavy Road Union, Washington 98592 360-898-2260 Fax 360-898-2262 e-mail:gvs@hctc.com Posts: 135 | From: Union,Washington - USA | Registered: Oct 1999
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Benjamin Moore Fresh Start!!!! What material were the signs made from?
-------------------- “Did you ever stop to think, and forget to start again?” -Winnie the Pooh & A.A. Milne
Kelly Thorson Kel-T-Grafix 801 Main St. Holdfast, SK S0G 2H0 ktg@sasktel.net Posts: 5496 | From: Penzance, Saskatchewan | Registered: May 2002
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I never use a latex primer unless the project is temporary. I've just had too many problems. I've never had a problem using a quality oil-based primer such as Sherwin-Williams A-100.
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I have used water based primers for 20 years. The only failure I have had was the one time I used Kilz. The paint and primer peeled completely off of MDO.
-------------------- Chuck Peterson Designs San Diego, CA Posts: 1050 | From: San Diego, CA USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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I use Sherwin-Williams or XIM (the white, not the clear).
Many times, on MDO, I just use the background color enamel (Sher-Williams, Ronan, oil base). One coat is the primer, 2nd coat is top coat. First coat soaks in and bites; 2nd coat tops it off. Has worked great for years.
-------------------- Dale Feicke Grafix 714 East St. Mendenhall, MS 39114
"I can do all things through Christ, who strengthens me." Posts: 2963 | From: Mendenhall, MS | Registered: Apr 1999
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Jay Cooke's, mostly. I have had nothing but problems (many years ago) with either Kilz product, especially outdoors. These are probably fine for interior stain killing. I worked for someone who used FSC-88 and it worked well also, but more expensive. Jay Cooke's and FSC-88 have a very good "tooth" that most water based primers don't have, they even sand well.
-------------------- Rick Heller Ohio Technical College 1374 E. 51st Street Cleveland, OH 44103 IOAFS Posts: 210 | From: Cleveland, OH | Registered: Nov 2001
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For over 10 yrs. we have used Benjamin Moores Fresh Start, and have not experienced a problem and we deal with some pretty harsh weather conditions where temps can be +20degrees C. during the day and drop to -2 degrees or lower at night....We always two coat our primed jobs...Barb, Maris hope all else is well....Pat
-------------------- Pat Welter Masterhand Signs and Designs Unity, Saskatchewan.Canada Posts: 1304 | From: Unity, Saskatchewan.Canada | Registered: May 1999
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Chromatic 1008 water-borne acrylic primer. Yes, it IS expensive - but not nearly as expensive as the failures associated with cheap paint!
-------------------- "A wise man concerns himself with the truth, not with what people believe." - Aristotle
Cam Bortz Finest Kind Signs Pondside Iron works 256 S. Broad St. Pawcatuck, Ct. 06379 "Award winning Signs since 1988" Posts: 3051 | From: Pawcatuck,Connecticut USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Kilz has an oil-based primer called Kilz Exterior...it's the cadillac of their line...I use it on cedar and redwood...never a failure...I use Kilz waterbase primer on everything else...only one failure and that was because I painted very late one day on site before a big freeze that night...not a good idea for any kind of paint...anyway from my personal experience I have no reason to change.
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KILZ is absolute crap outdoors. DO NOT USE KILZ OUTDOORS. I like to use BM flat exterior paint for primer OR 2 part epoxy.
-------------------- You ever notice how easily accessible people are when they are requiring your services but once they get invoice you can't reach them anymore
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Bruce...I guess each of us has their own experience...but the "crap" has worked fine by me for years...maybe you used the wrong Kilz for outdoors...they make several products.
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Like Rusty, I've found Kilz to be a faithful primer. Their outdoor premium stain killer, which they call oil-base, is a shellac compound. It's the devil to get out of brushed as well as anything else.
It's not as nice to sand as PB's FS88 but much better on oily boards like cedar.
The oil based primers are much more difficult to get into solution. It helps to have a good paint shaker. Harbor Freight has a good one for $100.
Once upon a time I had a wobbly old Shopbot. It was excellent at keeping my paint mixed up. I'd just put a can on the back side and turn on the router. It would mix blockout white as smooth as a milkshake.
It worked liked a dream for keeping any stiff paint all shook up. I miss that old thing. But the Harbor Freight version takes up less room. I have photo's. It wasn't too good as a router either.
-------------------- Joe Crumley Norman Sign Company 2200 Research Park Blvd. Norman, OK 73069 Posts: 1428 | From: 2200 Research Park Blvd. | Registered: Sep 2001
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Joe, you're going to get Ray all riled up to the point he won't get a good nap.
Speaking of paint shakers, I still have a Harbor Freight paint shaker for sale, $30 off their price, never out of the box, runs off your air compressor. (I bought 2 and the second one never went off site like I planned) Joe's right, a lot smaller than a Shop Bot and quieter too.
Back to topic. Rusty, I'm glad you haven't had any problems with Kilz, but many do. At every Letterhead meet I've been to I've heard of failures and they were always using Kilz for a primer. When I need an oil primer for redwood or cedar, I've never had a failure with Sign Prime by SignLife. On MDO I feel nothing beats Ronan blockout white, again an oil primer. For HDU either FSC88 from Coastal Enterprises or SignPrime (pricey though) Latex for MDO.... haven't used any yet so I'm keeping an eye on this thread but I really don't use much MDO anymore.
-------------------- Dave Sherby "Sandman" SherWood Sign & Graphic Design Crystal Falls, MI 49920 906-875-6201 sherwoodsign@sbcglobal.net Posts: 5396 | From: Crystal Falls, MI USA | Registered: Apr 1999
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No Ray, Rusty and I still like Kilz and were sticking to our choice.
It's ok with us if you use Porter Paint and need to drop some names and go on and on about not using primers though.
-------------------- Joe Crumley Norman Sign Company 2200 Research Park Blvd. Norman, OK 73069 Posts: 1428 | From: 2200 Research Park Blvd. | Registered: Sep 2001
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Well I guess in this vast unpredictable world...where there are great injustices...and life sometimes seems unfair...where often the good suffer...and the wicked prosper...and paint can peel...I'm at least lucky in one thing...primer.
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Wow, Dennis stripping down rough cedar to the bare wood must be a tough job. I don't blame you for having issues with Kilz. What do you think went wrong?
I know the Rough Cedar we get here is damp. Most of it is fresh cut and shipped without any drying out. Do you think this might have been the problem?
-------------------- Joe Crumley Norman Sign Company 2200 Research Park Blvd. Norman, OK 73069 Posts: 1428 | From: 2200 Research Park Blvd. | Registered: Sep 2001
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Gotta add my name to the short list of Kilz waterbase primer users. No problems here after several years of use. I even use the Kilz line for alot of my mdo sign base colors. The satin finish is great. All my mdo is pre primed, so I havent really used it much on that, but I do on signfoam. No problems here.
-------------------- Maker of fine signs and other creative stuff. Located at 109 N. Cumberland ave. Harlan, Ky. 40831 606-837-0242 Posts: 4172 | From: Ages-Brookside, Ky. Up the Holler... | Registered: Jul 1999
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Joe, this was a old cedar sign that we had to repaint, before they brought it to us they had the old paint sand blasted off so for the most part we were dealing with raw wood the sign sat in the shop for a couple months before we had time to work at it (besides I was dreading the job) so the wood should have been plenty dry. You are probably wondering why we didn't just make a new one, we tried to talk him into it but this sign had sentimental value so he wanted it fixed up I stripped last years paint of with Zip Strip and a pressure washer on the rough areas, for the smooth areas we used our Dewalt paint stripper it actually went pretty good. Now we have to let it dry out and repaint. I am gun shy now, not exactly sure what we are going to use we make most of our exterior signs using HDU never had a problem with paint before.
-------------------- Dennis Raap Raap Signs Posts: 839 | From: Coopersville, MI | Registered: Feb 2003
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Again...I've always used kilz and with good results...guess I'm just lucky that way...but I've always been lucky when it comes to using primers.
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just got done stripping down to the raw cedar we won't be using KILZ for the redo.![[I Don t Know]](graemlins/dunno.gif)
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