posted
So, I get called into a local customer's hole-in-the-wall coffee shop to discuss another sign for his business. This is in my very, very small rural town mind you - - although we do have an exit off a highway and a McD's and Subway off the exit.
Anyway, he has decided to add "ice-cream" to his offerings...and we discuss putting a sign above his already existing "Cappuccino" sign on the vertical overhang above his door.
He wants the words "ice cream." And I suggest adding the image of an ice-cream cone for a visual hook for passersby.
He says, "Can you do that?"
I say, "Sure..."
He says, "Are you sure? You can draw that?"
I say, "Yes, I am positive I can handle that...I have a degree in graphic design, and I have been in the art and sign fields for 25+ years."
He says, "You have a degree and you're drawing ice-cream cones.... wow... that's pathetic."
Yes.... he said ..."that's pathetic."
I just smiled and kept talking about the sign and how it would be accomplished.
But, as you can imagine... as I was driving away, I couldn't help but think about how he slammed my profession and self-worth.
I thought...well, I probably make a lot more $ than you do pal, and it beats pouring coffee for a living.
He's a nice enough guy... but his comment struck me as rude, demeaning and ironic.
Heck - I think the sign profession is a very admirable trade. You actually get to make your mark in a lasting and visual way.
Don't really know what to make of his off-hand slight.
-------------------- Todd Gill Outside The Lines Potterville, MI Posts: 7792 | From: Potterville, MI | Registered: Dec 2001
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posted
Blue collar, trade work like making signs is for people too stupid to go to college.
White collar workers have this perception of people that are "forced" to use their hands to make a living. I see this attitude alot.
I get a big laugh when people look at the dirty work clothes I am wearing only to find out that I have a 4 year degree. Most definitely don't realize that I more than likely make more money than they do and only get dirty because I want to.
-------------------- Dan Beach Cylinder 9 Designs 1650 Glassboro Rd Sewell, NJ 08080 Posts: 625 | From: South Jersey | Registered: Sep 2008
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posted
I think that people who treat others that way (feel they have to put them down) usually have had that happen to them earlier in the day. They have a nasty boss or wife or SOMEONE, who on a regular basis make their life miserable and they think they have to "pass it on". I feel sorry for them but they ARE infuriating. I think one thing you could do is just look them straight in the eye and say, "Having a bad day, are we?" That usually at least makes them realize they are spouting venom and sometimes I really don't think they understand that they are!
-------------------- Jane Diaz Diaz Sign Art 628 W. Lincoln Ave. Pontiac, Il. 61764 815-844-7024 www.diazsignart.com Posts: 4102 | From: Pontiac, IL USA | Registered: Feb 1999
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posted
Hey Todd, I've said it before and I'll say it again...
I'm an artist whose work is viewed by millions!
I don't know of many other artists or industries who can make claim to that statement.
Havin' fun,
Checkers
-------------------- a.k.a. Brian Born www.CheckersCustom.com Harrisburg, Pa Work Smart, Play Hard Posts: 3775 | From: Harrisburg, Pa. U.S.A. | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
It doesn't sound that he directly means to put you down. In his mind anyone with a degree and talent should be doing really important work and not servicing people and little businesses like his.
That's one theory anyways but to say pathetic out loud and not edit himself? Bottom line, what you got there is a class A Idiot.
-------------------- Wright Signs Wyandotte, Michigan Posts: 2785 | From: Wyandotte, MI USA | Registered: Jan 1999
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quote:Originally posted by Joe Cieslowski: Like the mother that told her kid out in front of my booth at the fair...
"If you don't do well in school you could end up with a job like that."
I guess my B.S. and M.S. doesn't count....
Joe,
Makin Chips and Havin Fun!
Well there's one misguided mother
Made me flash back to about ten years ago. I was striping and doing graphics on a new Freightliner at the dealer. As usual, I had an audience, most notably in this case a little girl, nine, maybe ten years old. She watched me do the entire job. When I got done, she told me art was her favorite subject in school and that she really liked what I did and was this my job. I replied that it was. She said it looked like it was fun. I replied that it was indeed fun. She replied with something along the lines of she didn't know you could have a job that involved art, nor did she know you could have fun at a job. I told her she could do whatever she wanted to, especially if she wanted to be happy in life. . . . I hope her mom wasn't like the one at Joe's booth.
-------------------- George Perkins Millington,TN. goatwell@bigriver.net
"I started out with nothing and still have most of it left"
posted
Great story George - nice to see the flip-side of the coin.
The way the guy made the comment to me... I could tell that he just let it slip out...kind of saying what he was thinking. He really wasn't mean about it at all...just blurted it out like he was verbalizing an observation.
Oh well.... my mom still loves me...LOL.
-------------------- Todd Gill Outside The Lines Potterville, MI Posts: 7792 | From: Potterville, MI | Registered: Dec 2001
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posted
"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." I think Eleanor Roosevelt said that.
I took his comment more like David describes it and less as a slight towards you. I think his only blunder was in how he expressed himself.
I'd of made a little joke and told him that I had no intentions of drawing him a pathetic ice cream cone. hahaa
Be careful of not falling in the same slot as you've pegged him. By assuming that you make more money than he does, aren't you actually judging him too?
None of us truly know each other's circumstances, but it's none of our business anyway. Likewise, it's probably best that we don't make other's opinion of us any of our business either.
Easier said than done, I know. I'm still working on that myself. haha
posted
Darcy's got It !! LOL Bill I am one who grew up in the trade. My company has been here since 1951. People ask me what I do for a living, I look around and can usually find something my company did within viewing distance. and say, well I did that and that and this menu we are looking at, and that window sign and that menu board, etc. It usually has it impact.
-------------------- Bill & Barbara Biggs Art's Sign Service, Inc. Clute, Texas, USA Home of The Great Texas Mosquito Festival Proud 10 year Supporter of the Letterheads Website www.artssigns.com "MrBill-" on the chat page MailTo:biggsbb@sbcglobal.net Posts: 1020 | From: Lake Jackson,Tx | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
If it were me I would email Darcy's artwork with Coffee man's own words attached.. "You have a degree and you're drawing ice-cream cones.... wow... that's pathetic." Then add my own " Take your work somewhere else" But hey that's me and I really wouldn't need his money ( I guess I'm just a little under educated than most) then two things could happen.. he would insist on having you do the work then give you a generous tip because he feels pretty stupid or he would go away.. Either way he would think next time before he speaks
-------------------- Gonzalo Curiel Peewee Signs & designs Oroville Ca 95965
posted
I have never felt slighted about my education until I came to North America. I don't want to complain about everything, but the education system has real flaws, in the States as well as in Canada. If you don't have a college or university degree you're really just second class. In a way you guys have swallowed the same lie, because you feel a need to point out that you do have a degree, despite the fact that you work as a sign painter. I think, being a (professional)sign painter in itself should demand people's respect. In my opinion they made a real mistake by neglecting the apprenticeship system and pushing everybody to a higher education. How many are really suited for that? Therefore they had to lower standards in High School, College and University, and the trades have become a second best option in the minds of many. Sad.
posted
What does he expect you to paint, covers for the Saturday Evening Post? I would have asked him where he got his coffee degree. (I really would have, it would have been an impulse). BAM!
I woulda lost the job, but somehow I think I would have been grinnin' anyway.
Steve
-------------------- "B0LT" on the chat room thing.
posted
Lotti, I could have written just what you did. There is a lot of people,(scholars included), who say trade schools and the apprentice system should be brought back. College is not superior but a different track for certain professions. We have all bought into this and all worry about saving for or our children paying for college when in all likelyhood they are not suited or shouldn't need to go for the career path they will eventually take.
Funny thing, just the other day I heard news of an elementary school closing down in our town and I fantasized out loud to my wife about turning into a sign trade school and using many from this board and others that I know into instructors. After I was done, I realized what a training and education that could be had that no college could ever give.
Bruce Bowers, Sign Design. Dan Antonelli on logo and web design. Carving from Joe, Hand Painting from Meyer, Glen Taylor running a graphics business. I could go on but you get the point.
As far as college doing what they used to do best which was introducing you to classical literature and thought, teaching you how to think properly, and rigorous scholastic training, well those days are gone for most institutions. Now it is a racket.
And Todd, you shouldn't use your degree as an explanation because I will bet all you know and can do has come by to you in the years after your initial education.
-------------------- Wright Signs Wyandotte, Michigan Posts: 2785 | From: Wyandotte, MI USA | Registered: Jan 1999
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posted
I just think of all the cubicle-gerbils with MBAs in Financial Administration who are no longer employed by Lehman Brothers, Washington Mutual, Bear Stearns, etc. Most of them wouldn't be qualified to sweep a floor.
Lotti is right. This country denigrates the trades because the "real money" comes with a college degree... but for way too many young people, college has become an expensive four-year drinking vacation for kids who never learned any sense of purpose or self-direction. We end up producing the dumbest, most ill-prepared and downright incompetent college grads on the planet - ask the people who hire and employ them.
What I get a kick out of is the commentators who wring their hands over the economic collapse and say "How could this happen?" Hell, look at the education system, and the nitwits who come out of it with degrees and take jobs in banks and on Wall Street, and ask yourself "How could this NOT happen?"
-------------------- "A wise man concerns himself with the truth, not with what people believe." - Aristotle
Cam Bortz Finest Kind Signs Pondside Iron works 256 S. Broad St. Pawcatuck, Ct. 06379 "Award winning Signs since 1988" Posts: 3051 | From: Pawcatuck,Connecticut USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
I heard one Harvard professor talking about the financial problems and commenting we need more educated people.
Then she mentioned of a poll that suggested how many people in America believe the moon landing was faked and again this was a problem of education. God help us from these people.
Robert McNamara was a big proponent of this solving everything and he saw the problem when he was Chairman of Ford and said there were far too many un-degreed people in high positions there. Well, he got the best and brightest just like he did when he was defense secretary during the Vietnam war. We all know how well that worked out.
-------------------- Wright Signs Wyandotte, Michigan Posts: 2785 | From: Wyandotte, MI USA | Registered: Jan 1999
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-------------------- Frank Smith Frank Smith Signs Albany, NY www.franksmithsigns.com Posts: 807 | From: Albany, NY USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
I hope you guys don't think I was being pompous by mentioning to the guy that "I know I can do it... I have a degree in graphic design and 25+ years in the field."
I was simply trying to qualify my education AND experience to him. He should know anyway, as I've already done some work for him.
But I understand where you David, Lotti, and Cam are coming from. There are many examples of educated incompetence without question.
Hopefully, I don't fall into that category...hehe.
-------------------- Todd Gill Outside The Lines Potterville, MI Posts: 7792 | From: Potterville, MI | Registered: Dec 2001
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posted
Well gee Todd . . . I see your point and incredulity. On the other hand it raised a coupl'a questions . . .
1. You said this was in 'your very small town'. I would think it's a place where you and your work are, or should be pretty well known . . .
Secondly, it's always a good idea to have a list of jobs, or keep a small photo album in your truck just to have on hand when these kind of things do occur, even if rarely.
Finally, quote: "Don't really know what to make of his off-hand slight."
He just did'nt know you did that kind of work and did'nt know that graphic art degrees allow for various feilds of the art industry and include sign painters, often called sign artists.
Most people think of someone having a graphic arts degree as a suit, sitting in some hi-rise at an art table drawing packaging and TV commerical ads. You did just right by smiling and continuing to discuss the job. I'm just sayin'... I would'a had somethin' to show him, or tell him about other work I'd done he's probably seen around town, and I would'a had to 'edjukate' him a lil' too, on just who I am and what I do . . . and as always, add how much I love my job because of meeting customers and not bein' stuck in some hi-rise in a suit . . . lol
-------------------- Signs Sweet Home Alabama
oneshot on chat
"Look like a girl, act like a lady, think like a man, work like a dog" Posts: 5758 | From: "Sweet Home" Alabama | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
I think or at least hope the guy was just kidding. For all we know, he might have a degree, too.
-------------------- Frank Smith Frank Smith Signs Albany, NY www.franksmithsigns.com Posts: 807 | From: Albany, NY USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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a couple of dads and their boys were watching me carve letters on a job. I finished one and looked up and asked if that what I was doing was Kool? The kids nodded yes. I asked if they had time and I'd show em another but this time I asked if they could time me. I gave him my watch and he said go..... I think I carved a capital N. When I was done, I asked how long it took. He said 2 1/2 minutes. Then I asked if he knew what I just made? After a pause, he said "an N?" I said nope.............
Minimum wage. The kids didn't get it but the dads did.
Joe,
Makin Chips and Havin Fun!
[ March 16, 2009, 04:33 PM: Message edited by: Joe Cieslowski ]
-------------------- Joe Cieslowski Connecticut Woodcarvers Gallery P.O.Box 368 East Canaan CT 06024 jcieslowski@snet.net 860-824-0883 Posts: 2345 | From: East Canaan CT 06024 | Registered: Nov 2001
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posted
"Heck - I think the sign profession is a very admirable trade. You actually get to make your mark in a lasting and visual way."
As a Bank Manager, I said to my wife... "If I died tomorrow, there is nothing to say I was ever here" That is why I entered the sign trade. That was 13 years ago and just this Sunday put up a sign that will be there for at least another 10 years.
Memorials come in many shapes and sizes.
-------------------- Gregg Sydney Signworks (02) 9837 1198 Schofields NSW Australia Posts: 368 | From: Schofields | Registered: May 2007
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posted
One of my wealthiest customers owns a Septic Tank Cleaning Service. He also happens to be ONLY an elementary school graduate....no high school....no college or University. His sage words of wisdom: "I found a job that nobody else wanted to do. That meant that I could pretty much charge whatever I wanted, and their alternative was to do it themselves."
This guy is on the verge of selling his business for $6.25 Million. I guess not everyone needs a degree, if they have just a bit of common sense.
-------------------- Ken Henry Henry & Henry Signs London, Ontario Canada (519) 439-1881 e-mail: kjmlhenry@rogers.com
Why do I get all those on-line offers to sell me Viagara, when the only thing hardening is my arteries ? Posts: 2684 | From: London,Ontario, Canada | Registered: Feb 1999
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posted
makes me just want to wear a body condom and clean houses for $25/hr....no huge overhead...put the ipod on and go clean! ka-ching. that's my backup plan.
-------------------- Karyn Bush Simply Not Ordinary, LLC Bartlett, NH 603-383-9955 www.snosigns.com info@snosigns.com Posts: 3516 | From: Bartlett, NH USA | Registered: Jan 2001
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posted
I just thought of something, Todd, you'll laugh, but it's a real possibility: The guy might not have know the meaning of "pathetic"! I'm serious, people throw words around that they don't really understand. This one lady I know kept saying: "I was just APPALLED", when she meant, amazed or really impressed. It was pretty funny, I never told her, lol. So, who knows what the guy thought he was saying, maybe it was a compliment.
posted
Coulda been.... Lotti, LOL. Well, anyway, other than posting it here and shaking my head...I wasn't too destroyed by it...just thought it was weird.
So... I shall simply design what he wants and hopefully transfer some of his money from his pocket to mine. hahaha.
-------------------- Todd Gill Outside The Lines Potterville, MI Posts: 7792 | From: Potterville, MI | Registered: Dec 2001
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posted
Todd, maybe the operative word there was "draw"...
Perhaps if you'd been able to use 'contstruct, fabricate, or any multisyllabled bigger word, it might have impressed him?
(P.S. My youngest brother worked his way around Europe, UK, Africa& Asia doing largely coffee serving, then worked his way through university, serving coffee at markets. He's now well employed & about to finish a PhD, but still goes & helps out at the coffee stand his freinds set up. They have a huge business, started from a car boot.)
-------------------- "Stewey" on chat
"...there are no limits when you aim for perfection..." Jonathan Livingston Seagull Posts: 7014 | From: Highgrove via Toowoomba, Queensland, Australia | Registered: Dec 2002
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posted
For years I felt that if I had a college degree things would be different. When asked to do gold leaf lettering on the glass panels in Columbia's library of rare books and manuscripts, I felt quite good. Professors were asking me questions about my work.In New York City parking is a big problem, but they opened the gate for me to park inside. With the will and determination, there is no limit in what you can accomplish without the college degrees. Bill
-------------------- Bill Riedel Riedel Sign Co., Inc. 15 Warren Street Little Ferry, N.J. 07643 billsr@riedelsignco.com Posts: 2953 | From: Little Ferry, New Jersey, USA | Registered: Feb 1999
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posted
Hey, this isn't a debate on college degrees..lol...
I fully understand that it is *possible* to do well without having one.
That said, since it keeps being brought up, I will say that the facts are: Workers with college degrees typically earn twice as much money over the course of their career as those with only a high-school education.
I notice that there tends to be a lot of slams on this site against people who spent 4 years in college in pursuit of a graphic arts degree. By that same argument, why is *any* schooling necessary? Skip high-school...forget about middle school....kindergarten is a waste of time.
Not putting you into this category of thinking Bill - - you're a respectable person, and talented as well - - but it did bring this whole education theme to mind.
So, my personal thoughts are that education is a vital component to success - - and when seasoned with experience and mentorship built upon it - - anything is possible.
I don't know how to say it differently, I was simply trying to illustrate to the guy that I have the credentials AND experience to handle a simple ice-cream cone....
Edit: The guy might have simply thought it humorous that it took a degree in college to draw ice-cream cones? Pathetic was probably the wrong choice of words for him. A college education might have given him a better descriptive word to use. hehe
posted
I'd just have said "No sir, pathetic is someone who has to pay someone else to paint an ice cream cone cause they aren't capable of doing it." Just in an off hand way the way he said it.
But then again he might now be sitting at home wondering whether he should be insulted by that or whether he still needed an ice cream sign. Either way it sounds to me like he wouldn't know to acknowledge the insult, and apologize. And he does still need the Ice Cream Sign. Take pity on people with very little brain, give him the sign.
-------------------- Deri Russell Wildwood Signs Hanover, Ontario
You're just jealous 'cause the little voices only talk to me. Posts: 1904 | From: Hanover, Ontario, Canada | Registered: Dec 1998
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posted
Back when I got out of high school I seriously considered art school. It was a four year program. I walked through the best school in BC to look around and although I'm sure they could have taught me plenty I didn't like what I saw there. It just didn't appeal to me.
I decided then I wouldn't go, but instead invest those same four years into learning new skills as I worked. 36 years later I'm still learning plenty of new things daily and intent on learning plenty more until the day I die.
Over the years I've hired college, university and trade school gratuates. Although they all had the right papers I generally found that someone passionate to learn what I was teaching was of more value to me by far than those who were 'qualified'.
I often get asked where I learned all the things I do and my answer is 'simply by doing. There is no school that teaches it.'
I am 'qualified' for nothing, but there is little I cannot do in Yarrow...
-grampa dan
-------------------- Dan Sawatzky Imagination Corporation Yarrow, British Columbia dan@imaginationcorporation.com http://www.imaginationcorporation.com
Being a grampa is one of the the most wonderful things in the world!!! Posts: 8738 | From: Yarrow, B.C. Canada | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Back to your original post- you are correct, most people have a very limited perception of things that they don't understand or subjects that they have no knowledge about.
A couple of years ago I was involved in a very heated discussion with a professional photographer friend- he is an award-winning photographer with many years of training, experience and accomplishments, a highly sought after professional and is quick to tell you so if you have any doubts. He is really good and his prices reflect that.
He was wanting some work from me, but he was complaining about the cost of my work- it took me awhile to convince him that in my field I too am an award-winning artist with many years of training, experience and accomplishments, also a highly sought after professional, only in a different field.
His argument was that he could go to another shop and get something similar a lot cheaper than what my price was. I finally got him to understand when I pointed out that I could go to the Wal-Mart Photo booth where they would take family portraits and they only charge a few dollars for the sitting fee- a fraction of what he charged in his studio.
His response was: "No, you don't understand, it's not the same- I'm a professional, with thousands and thousands of dollars in equipment, over 20 years experience, I command top dollar because of the level of skill and ability... it's like comparing apples and oranges!"
"Exactly, it's the same for me and that's why I charge what I do!"
-------------------- Michael Clanton Clanton Graphics/ Blackberry 19 Studio 1933 Blackberry Conway AR 72034 501-505-6794 clantongraphics@yahoo.com Posts: 1735 | From: Conway Arkansas | Registered: Oct 2001
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posted
I also get the people who are aquaintances who don't really know what all I do and the comments are like:
"wow- I didn't know you could draw, I knew you worked with computer art, but I didn't know you were a REAL artist"
"have you ever thought about doing art as a career?"
"you did that? that's really good... are you sure YOU did that? I had no idea you could do that kind of work?"
"I knew you printed t-shirts, I had no idea you knew how to draw..."
"I knew you taught drawing some, I had no idea you also knew how to paint..."
"I've seen you paint stuff, I had no idea you knew how to make signs too..."
"I thought you just made websites, I had no idea that you designed logos..."
"I have that same program on my computer, but you must have a newer version because I can't get my designs to look like yours..."
"oh, you're an artist? you need to meet my nephew, he's really good, he can draw a picture and make it look just like you, never had any lessons or anything..."
and the list goes on and on
GGGRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
-------------------- Michael Clanton Clanton Graphics/ Blackberry 19 Studio 1933 Blackberry Conway AR 72034 501-505-6794 clantongraphics@yahoo.com Posts: 1735 | From: Conway Arkansas | Registered: Oct 2001
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posted
A remark like like can only be combated with a smile and a generous price increase.
-------------------- Signs by Alicia Jennings (Mudflap Girl) Tacoma, WA Since 1987 Have Lipstick, will travel. Posts: 3812 | From: Tacoma, WA. U.S.A. | Registered: Dec 1999
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posted
When I'm looking to buy a computer, all of them may look the same from the outside, but the one I need has enough processor speed, enough RAM memory, and a fast video card. But how do I know? I look for the computer's "credentials".
How does the customer know what we have inside our head? I mean, Todd looks like any other guy to me, except for a striking resemblance to Groucho Marx. But if Todd tells me that he has an art degree, that at least tells me that here's a guy who was serious enough about the art profession, that he took the EFFORT to buckle down and endure 4 years of school. That certainly counts for something and, right or wrong, a great many employers seem to think so too.
I graduated from highschool with honors. But like those Cam mentioned, I was one who had no direction in life and I quit just short of getting my associate degree. I only needed Speech, English 102, and a biology lab to complete it. But that's another story. It doesn't matter so much how you got the education, whether it's from college, or experience. What matters is how passonately you pursued it. And though we all have "credentials", we all have to qualify those and ourselves in the eyes of the customer. That's all Todd was trying to do. This guy that Todd mentioned, evidently needs more education too: education in simple RESPECT. But I think you handled it well, Todd, by keeping a tight lip. Don't worry about it. If he meant it as a put-down, the school of hard knocks will catch up with him later.
[ March 19, 2009, 02:06 PM: Message edited by: Wayne Webb ]
-------------------- Wayne Webb Webb Signworks Chipley, FL 850.638.9329 wayne@webbsignworks.com Posts: 7403 | From: Chipley,Florida,United States | Registered: Oct 1999
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