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I cold-called an office building owner about 4 months ago. I designed his monument. He made changes and finally after 2 months had a huge brick monument up. He was cool and we fun bantering back and forth with the design of his sign. (that was my first uneasy feeling, having too good of a time
the brick on the monument was a little on the dark side. He wanted bronze letters across the top and ivory plaques routed with bronze lettering. on this the lettering was to be cut INTO the pvc. I told him he need to do the lettering at top in black or ivory. the plaques should be permanent because tenants come and go it will be less expensive AND to do them black with off white lettering. another month or so went by with no word (2nd uneasy feeling, something told me I did NOT get this job)after a couple of follow up emails with no answer I dropped it. i knew id lost this job
I was correct! i rode by last week and the lettering and the plaques were up. the plaques were ivory with brown lettering in times font, not readable. the lettering acroos the top was in bronze (dark brown) just what he wanted on dark brick. I was not angry. I was a little dissappointed at not getting this job but to see it look like it did, SH*T, not readable OR eye catching was enough for me.
When you saw the sign as a whole all you saw was 6 off white plaques and some jumbled lettering on them. THIS is why i suggested what I did. Sign is on a main artery and traffic is moving. Make you wonder. Do we as sign people TRY and educate OR do we just sit back, shut up and do what they want. Damned if you do and damned if you dont.
what was shocking is on my layouts I had placed his lettering and mine on the sign and showed BOTH to him printed out on photo paper. maybe his interior designer stepped in. I do have to wonder in situations like this, if people actually get complaints and for 1 fleeting second think about those of us who TOLD YOU SO!!!!
-------------------- VISUAL IMAGES MONTGOMERY, AL Posts: 1055 | From: Montgomery, AL, usa | Registered: Jan 2000
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Readability has always been my #1 concern. Unfortunately, for a lot of customers, it's not only not a concern, they can't grasp the concept. Not to worry. There are also a number of signmakers who also fail to grasp the concept. Most wraps are a prime example.
-------------------- George Perkins Millington,TN. goatwell@bigriver.net
"I started out with nothing and still have most of it left"
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Yeah, this is one of the reasons why I hate cold calling. I'd much rather concentrate on building my reputation and let them want to come to me.
George, you are so right. I've met with many "designers" how have no grasp of sign layout or the need for contrast.
Many of these designers are used to looking at things up close and on paper. They don't understand that the greater the viewing distance, the greater the contrast has to be.
About wraps, I need to start taking pics of wraps I've seen around town. Most of them you can't make heads or tails of what its suppose to say or do.
-------------------- Creative Graphics, Inc. Wilson, NC
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that has nothing to with cold calling...you can easily be called upon by the same types of customers. and architects, INTERIOR DESIGNERS and the infamous ad agencies need to back off and get a clue
-------------------- VISUAL IMAGES MONTGOMERY, AL Posts: 1055 | From: Montgomery, AL, usa | Registered: Jan 2000
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Bruce, did you get paid for the time spent?
I find it easier to convince the client who voluntarily comes to me that my time is worth paying for. In the past, if I did a cold call I was expected to do the design time for free in the hopes of getting the job. That is why I said what I said about cold calls.
As for architects and such, yeah, I feel the same way. But I came to the conclusion that while they may be lousy designers, they must have been better salesmen than me if they got the job.
Keep in mind as well that you may never actually had a shot at the job and that the guy was just stringing you along and passing your ideas to the guy he intended to do the job anyway.
.
[ October 12, 2008, 10:45 AM: Message edited by: Glenn Taylor ]
-------------------- Creative Graphics, Inc. Wilson, NC
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I knew others were entertaining this job. That was no problem. My job was to get this dude to put up something that would be visible and look the best. money was also a factor (as it always will be)
Did i get paid for any of this legwork, no. I dont charge for laying stuff out. If I asked for that up front they would move right along to the next company that doesnt charge at all. I have already tried that, doesnt work down here. This was a big dollar job it was worth it to take the time.
and who knows he may have been stringing me. BUT as always down the road later another customer comes along with someone else ideas and you get to bid on that. full circle. this post was actually not menat aas whining because i didnt get a job i was apalled at how the color combos he chosen that i was against was executed anyway.
-------------------- VISUAL IMAGES MONTGOMERY, AL Posts: 1055 | From: Montgomery, AL, usa | Registered: Jan 2000
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Bruce, I;ve always suspected this, but this post proves it.
You didn't ask for any compensation for your time because you say they will "move right on to the next company", which essentially means you make no money. So instead, you did all this work for them, and you STILL didn'y make any money!You want to try to explain the point of that? The fact is (not that facts make any impression on you ) is that people value what they are required to pay for - give them something for free, whether its a design for an office building sign or anything else - and they place no value on it. Why should they? YOU DIDN'T! And yet you expect to be taken seriously?
The issue is NOT whether they got a crummy unreadable sign. People get those all the time, from an industry full of people who are incompetent or have no respect for what they do. When you work for clients for nothing, it perpetuates the impression that sign people are mere service providers with little or no design skills, and that design should be handled by a "professional" designer, who, by the way, gets paid up front or does no work. Getting paid to do work. What a concept, huh?
-------------------- "A wise man concerns himself with the truth, not with what people believe." - Aristotle
Cam Bortz Finest Kind Signs Pondside Iron works 256 S. Broad St. Pawcatuck, Ct. 06379 "Award winning Signs since 1988" Posts: 2827 | From: Pawcatuck,Connecticut USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Bruce, Cam is 100% right. I live in the armpit of America, and I still charge for layout (I won't turn on my computer without a deposit) and if it is a site survey, I will charge for that too. Gas is not free and neither is my time. Charging for these services will winnow out the tire-kicker. Love....Jill
Posts: 8176 | From: Butler, PA, USA | Registered: Jan 2001
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AND i certainly understand that. And I also respect the fact that you can get it.
and cam as to whether or not Im professional I send out a 3 page flyer, mag business cards and a brochure. Several "well known" big ticket signs in it to evaluate my work. After browsing thru what Ive done if someone assumes i am not professional, carry on they shall. AND obviously Im the ONLY company on here that doesn't charge for designs. as a matter of fact Im the only one in Montgomery who doesnt charge for layouts also....BS!!!!! Others are just afraid to admit it on a board like this an get blasted, so in order to "keep with the troops" they all get design time. I have bid against other sin this town, i know what they get and Ive seen what they charge and DESIGN TIME is not part of it.
-------------------- VISUAL IMAGES MONTGOMERY, AL Posts: 1055 | From: Montgomery, AL, usa | Registered: Jan 2000
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Bruce, you can't get paid for sketches and field surveys unless you ask. All sign companies in Montgomery don't give away their time and work. Once the customer has a little money invested they are more likely to purchase. I just received a check for $125.00 from a client for a sketch and field survey. The terms were this money will no be refunded unless the client buys the sign from me. If they buy from me then that $125.00 goes toward the purchase price. The client decided to go with another company. I also let them know they were paying for my time and not the design.
Sure, there are some customers who do not want to invest in my time to make an effective design but at least I did not work on pure speculation.
quote: I have already tried that, doesnt work down here.
Jill and cam have sage words..
My friend. I spent hundreds of hours in dozens of business conferences all over the country over the years. I had the pleasure to travel overseas as well. I spoke at many of these meetings myself. Your words are what I've heard at every single seminar. Yes every single one.
I also heard these.. They won't pay that here. This place is different. My case is special. We are a unique what we do.. ETC...
In every single case for those who chose to do something about it and did soon found out those words are for persons at that level of marketing experience.. There is a higher level of marketing. And it isn't just making ads and distributing fliers. There is a way.
If you can find a model to follow it will work anywhere in the country including the smallest of podunk places.. There are basics to follow. If you find them and use them I guarantee your feelings will change.
I moved here with just about nothing. This is the middle of the worst state economy in the country. I was coasting along then decided to reopen. I more than doubled the income since August 2. So it is a fact that folowing a marketing model is being done all over the country with success.
-------------------- Gone Norf... Leaper of Tall Snowbanks.. now in Byron Center MI. left Katrina chewed,, Slidell, LA Posts: 4327 | From: Byron Center MI. | Registered: Jul 2001
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so mark your saying you ALWAYS ask for money down. 100% of the time if I bid against you on jobs that YOU DID get money down on that job. every job you have done art for you have gotten a sketch fee for
-------------------- VISUAL IMAGES MONTGOMERY, AL Posts: 1055 | From: Montgomery, AL, usa | Registered: Jan 2000
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C'mon Bruce, I don't do anything on the same level you and Mark do and even I RARELY do design work on spec anymore. The rare times I do these days are sales I know I've already gotten. If we can get deposits in the sticky shop you can too.
I know why you're doing it and I agree its a lot easier to make a sale when you can show them what you're going to do for them but Cam's right, people pay a lot more attention when they've got to pay for the design.
(and you're right, you can't read that sign...want me to call them for you and mention that?)
[ October 13, 2008, 04:19 PM: Message edited by: Patrick Whatley ]
-------------------- "I'm here to connect your mouth to your brain because it seems you're talking out of your ass!" ~Jake the Snake
Pat Whatley Montgomery, AL (334) 262-7446 office (334) 324-8465 cell Posts: 1114 | From: Wetumpka, AL USA | Registered: Mar 2001
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LOL, nah they will figure it out sooner or later. If someone does approach me with logo work THAT is definitely a charge. but if someone calls and says i need a sign on my building heres my logo and i take a pic throw the sign on it and email it back to them, i dont charge, i never have.
I didnt mean to come across to anyone as bashing them for charging design fees. its your business and you do what you want with it
maybe I should, maybe its wrong not to BUT Ive been doing that for the past 19 years. you get some you lose some. and this post was not meant as a calling for me NOT charging a design fee, it was venting about a customer getting a non-readable, legible sign. Which I cant understand HOW this is just not visible to the owners eyes.
sometimes i wonder if people tell the sign people to "match the color of the brick as close as you can get it with the signage...hell they might as well say that
-------------------- VISUAL IMAGES MONTGOMERY, AL Posts: 1055 | From: Montgomery, AL, usa | Registered: Jan 2000
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Bruce, I started out 14 years ago, doing it that way. But after designing and printing out too many "proofs" using my ink and paper and wasting too much time emailing proofs with nothing to show for them, it no longer seemed like such a good idea. Then when I saw my first "proof" copied by another sign shop, that was my wakeup call.
Mark, Cam and Jill are telling the truth; if you don't respect your own time, the customer certainly isn't going to.
-------------------- This most beautiful system [The Universe] could only proceed from the dominion of an intelligent and powerful Being. Sir Isaac Newton
Wayne Webb Webb Sign Studio Chipley, FL 850.638.9329 webbsigns@emeraldcst.com Posts: 4796 | From: Chipley,Florida,United States | Registered: Oct 1999
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Bruce, obviously, you do not know what you are doing. What you need to do is travel around every other part of the country to some real sign shops and sit in with them a week with your notepad and take lessons.... then go back to M'town and wait for your flood of customers... OR you can post on here about the LEGIBILITY OF A SIGN and get 20 free marketing, sales and invoicing lessons from everyone and their sister....
Well, I might as well keep going... sometimes the quickie design thingy works. I did a very profitable job from the local casino here a couple weeks ago. They sent over a list of signs and needed a price on them... (They've been ordering from another shop here in town, but a friend recommended me to them) I laid them out quickly and easily and sent them over a proposal, which they accepted because they liked the way the proposal and signs looked... when I sent the bill I DID NOT HAVE A SEPARATE amount set out for design time.... nor would I have sent them a bill for the quick layouts if I did not get the job.... granted, the time I spent was figured into the price I gave them, but I had no possible way of extracting that if they didn't order from me...
Now I could have told the lady on the phone wanting the price that I would need money up front to give her a price, since I needed to lay out all the signs to determine the proper sizes and format... and she would have laughed in my face and called her regular shop and I would have lost a several thousand dollar order...
I do realize this post was not about your frustration that you didn't get the fish (get paid for your time) but the fact that the customer did not realize he was getting a crappy sign from whoever he was dealing with and change his design accordingly... or even better recognize that you knew what you were doing and order it from you.
Since you were cold-calling, trying to get a nice job from this guy, it would have been difficult to charge him for the design. If he had come to you and asked you to design it, that would have been quite different. So sit back knowing you did all that was possible and it was a good attempt at getting the job. He didn't pay attention and he's gonna pay for it by having an ineffective and illegible sign.
-------------------- Jon Jantz Snappysign.com jjantz21@gmail.com http://www.allcw.com Posts: 2270 | From: Atmore, AL | Registered: Nov 2005
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Bruce, I can certainly identify with this dillema . . .
Quote: "Do we as sign people TRY and educate OR do we just sit back, shut up and do what they want? . . ."
But I'm kind'a shocked at the people who believe the concept of: 'don't ask any questions or offer any suggestions, just do what the customer wants'
No matter what . . . call it pride, artistic integrity, or whatever . . . but I can only do 'what the customer wants' if what they want want is in BOTH of our best interests. I can't sacrifice my reputation on a bad looking product. I have to know I did my best. Control freak. lol It does'nt take THAT much time just to doodle some good ideas or show some examples of a thing to 'educate' the customer for their own benefit, but if the customer persists with a bad idea I just don't take the job. And when I drive by and see they got someone to make them a tacky sign JUST LIKE they wanted, I'm as happy as I can be that I did'nt do it!! AND that whether they ever admit it to me or not, they will eventually realize they made a mistake. Ka-sera-sera. I'll rake leaves, scrub toilets, drive a truck, and be a waitress before I will do ugly, non-functioning signs.
See? I can't even let bad spelling 'ride' in a post . . .it HAS to be right . . .
quote:But I'm kind'a shocked at the people who believe the concept of: 'don't ask any questions or offer any suggestions, just do what the customer wants'
Did I say that? I will make suggestions all day, but getting the client or potential client to actually listen to them is another matter entirely. While I do feel Bruce's pain about the guy having a nasty-ass no-contrast sign, I still would never have gone as far as he did with this client without a deposit. Love....Jill
Posts: 8176 | From: Butler, PA, USA | Registered: Jan 2001
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I think cold calls are a bit of a different concept than a client coming to you. There are a number of different occasions in the past where I have approached a client and done a design to try and win his business. Some of those gambles paid off and some didn't. It's a grey area when you say I designed it and he made some changes - I guess it depends on how much it was changed, but if it is pretty much like you designed it then I feel you should get some compensation for it because he used your design. In tight economic times you do what you need to in order to land the work. I don't think adding a good design to your cold calling approach is unreasonable, and you can hardly charge the client for something he hasn't asked for until he is sold on the idea. Somehow though you need to protect yourself from the scenario you describe where the initial contact continued and the client used up a fair amount of your time and ideas. As far as the sign being illegible, the client can see that too and probably realizes his mistake. It might be a good time to drop by and remind him that you had those exact concerns in a very gentle way. He may even be open to revisiting your ideas, with a deposit, of course. I think the big thing in a situation like that is to not back hin into the corner, but to be understanding and sympathetic. That builds your reputation for being knowledgeable and gracious and that reputation will travel.
-------------------- “Did you ever stop to think, and forget to start again?” -Winnie the Pooh & A.A. Milne
Kelly Thorson Kel-T-Grafix 801 Main St. Holdfast, SK S0G 2H0 ktg@sasktel.net Posts: 3689 | From: Holdfast, Saskatchewan | Registered: May 2002
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Bruce, while Cam might not have offered you any Vaseline, he certainly gave you very sound advice. Whether you take it is up to you. Many people have asked me "What's you secret?", as if there was one thing that made the difference in being successful and not. The real secret is that you have to do *everything* right and that includes sound, time tested business principals. You won't get it if you don't ask for it - guaranteed. It's not even a reasonable business practice to give your design and consulting services for free or even as an incentive. Like has been said many times: to do so makes it worthless - not just your expertise but every other sign company. Do you have any idea how many times I've been told "I'll give you a case of beer to letter my race car"? I never once took any of them up on it. Why? Because that was a stereotype of the sign painter back then. I like to think that I changed a lot of that in my area.
A defining moment for me, as a businessman, came at the Naples, FL meet (WAY back in the day!); Jeff Cahill gave a talk and said he was working like 60 hours a week. He said "I made the quality decision to double my prices and guess what, I lost half my customers" - but he took in just as much money and was working a normal work week. At the same meet, Mike Jackson said Very seldom does the mind of a craftsman and the mind of a businessman occupy the same body. (paraphrased). It's easy to look up to guys like this and believe every word they say. I did and it changed my life. Just being aware of the rarity of being a good sign man and a good businessman made me strive to shore up my weekness' and be vigilant in every aspect of my business. I saw other Letterheads that were incredible designers and technicians, nearly starving because they were not good at business. On the other hand, I felt like a hack by comparison and I was doing well. The fact is, we don't get paid in due proportion to our design skills, otherwise David Butler and Gary Anderson would be making half the national budget, LOL. So what makes the difference? Our business practices and policies. You can stumble over the same rocks that Cam and Curtis, Kent Smith and many others have done - until we made up our minds that we were not going to screw ourselves over again by not having firm company policies and procedures that prevented that. I don't care how much marketing collateral you have; that's impressive and you get an attaboy and a gold star but it still doesn't take the place of basic business policies.
-------------------- Ricky Jackson Signs Now 614 Russell Parkway Warner Robins, GA (478) 923-7722 signpimp50@hotmail.com
"If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants." Sir Issac Newton Posts: 3402 | From: Warner Robins, GA | Registered: Oct 2004
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Look, I'm definitely not advocating free 'design time', but most of the vitals can be done in a notebook or even on a napkin or envelope whittling initial time to a 5 or 10 minute question & discussion about what the customer is specifically looking for.
By the time all those details are collected (via notes and a coupl'a rough sketches), they have been informed the real design/quote period to create finished art will begin and incures a fee and understand the fact if I don't get the job, they will be billed for finished art at an hourly rate, and which they also may opt to purchase for their use at an even higher fee.
I'm just sayin', a lot of surprises for the customer and yourself can be avoided by communicating some basic info up front. I think a large majority of the problems often mentioned with customers are entirely unecessary.
It might be mentally, emotionally, and financially profitable for some people to read some books or take some evening classes in communication/PR skills. Relearn how to 'take notes, to listen, and to have confidence in one's own input and experience relating to the customer...
In many cases here, when a 'head is sharing a problem with a customer it can be traced to an initial lack of communication almost everytime . . . . it's so avoidable. . . .meanwhile, at this point you may be thinking, 'Yeh- right Sheila. But YOU communicate TOO much.'
Fair enough.
But lemmee ax' y'all:
When it comes to your business goal: income-living-desire for repeat customers-etc, can there really be too much communication about a job?
I'm just sayin' it works iz'all.
-------------------- Signs Sweet Home Alabama
oneshot on chat
"Look like a girl, act like a lady, think like a man, work like a dog" Posts: 5403 | From: "Sweet Home" Alabama | Registered: Mar 2003
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Bruce, obviously, you do not know what you are doing. What you need to do is travel around every other part of the country to some real sign shops and sit in with them a week with your notepad and take lessons.... then go back to M'town and wait for your flood of customers... OR you can post on here about the LEGIBILITY OF A SIGN and get 20 free marketing, sales and invoicing lessons from everyone and their sister... ____________________________________________________________
LOL I have to agree! and i completely understand what everyone is saying. Am i ONCE AGAIN under the assumption that ALWAYS , 100% of the time CHARGE A DESIGN FEE!!!
why do I ask because I have seen alot of quotes. I have overbid on alot, and not ONCE have a I seen a design fee on that quote. when my phone rings and bubba wants letters on a building I will go out take a pic throw letter son it and email him back with a price, IF i get it fine, if not, another bited the dust. I dont need seminars, schooling, and eduation, but I do know this, Im not the ONLY one in this city that doesnt charge a design fee. Alot of people scream it, to be in the crowd, but they really dont. Im not stupid.
this goes right along with those SIGNCRAFTER magazine "WHAT WOULD YOU CHARGE!" OMG some of the charges and prices those people cubmit, they would never get that down here. and you all know youve looked at that and went DAMN, that dude says he charges $1800.00 for a 4x8 banner NOT INSTALLED.
-------------------- VISUAL IMAGES MONTGOMERY, AL Posts: 1055 | From: Montgomery, AL, usa | Registered: Jan 2000
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I've noticed the same thing around here. They paid $3-4K and it's not even as effective as a $100 vinyl job. I guess the customer thinks people are going to stop to read the mess.
-------------------- Ricky Jackson Signs Now 614 Russell Parkway Warner Robins, GA (478) 923-7722 signpimp50@hotmail.com
"If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants." Sir Issac Newton Posts: 3402 | From: Warner Robins, GA | Registered: Oct 2004
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I'm going to come back to this topic out of respect for Bruce. There are a few things that ought to be cleared up.
Bruce says he has seen lots of quotes from different sign companies, and "never seen a separate design fee." He wouldn't see them on my written quotes, either. I don't give written quotes for design fees; that aspect is handled verbally as a means of qualifying the client - to gauge a reaction and see if they are serious, or shopping.
The way I'd have handled the scenario Bruce wrote about is this. When the client showed interest in having me come up with a concept for his signs, my response goes along these lines: "I'd be happy to show you some ideas. This is a fairly complex project with a number of variables to take into account, and in order to give this the attention it deserves, we require a small retainer to compensate for our time." This identifies me/us as professionals whose time is valuable. If the potential client objects or is dismissive of the idea of paying for my time, they are disqualified - I thank them for their time, and we don't do business.
The amount I actually charge will vary according to the job and to the relationship with the client. I've asked for as little as $25 for a quick layout on a small job, with an offer to refund it on the final invoice. If it's a complex job that's going to involve several drawings, researching products and materials, or multiple trips to the site, I would charge between $250 to $500. The amount is not as important as getting across to the client that my time has value - if he chooses not to purchase my time, he has that right, but he does NOT have the right to expect anything for free. And if he is a serious businessman, and not just a tire kicker, he is going to respect that.
Am I 100% consistent with this approach? No, I'm not. As I said, it is conditional depending upon the relationship with the client. But I have used it often enough, and with positive results, to be able to speak with some authority on the subject. The choice to Bruce - and others - is whether to learn something from the experiences of others
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) is that people value what they are required to pay for - give them something for free, whether its a design for an office building sign or anything else - and they place no value on it. Why should they? YOU DIDN'T! And yet you expect to be taken seriously?
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