posted
I've searched the forums here and even went to the .gov site (want to get lost...go there ) and couldn't find my answer. I'm hoping some of my PA co-horts might know: I'm in the process of signing a multi-story apartment building. I have what I thought were all the required ADA signage for exits and rooms, but the township inspector came through today and said that my evacuation maps next to the elevators also have to be ADA compliant - raised graphic and all. I disagree, since how is a blind person supposed to read an evac map? Maybe I need to have 'In case of fire use stairs' in braille? I'm missing something vital here, and I can't find a coherent website that outlines exactly what signs are required for housing in PA.
Any input? Thanks, all!
Rick
-------------------- Rick Tam Arte Design Studio Downingtown, PA milne2@msn.com Posts: 278 | From: Downingtown, PA | Registered: Apr 2004
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posted
I hope to God that if there is an emergency evacuation, somebody will grab the wheelchair bound and the blind person by the arm, and not direct them to the nearest sign!
Whether there is an adequate sign at that point is moot, and common sense will dictate that.
Having said that, and now that I'm making signs in PA, I will say that "common sense" is not a term that can be used in the "Commonwealth". I'm sorry that I really can't help you with the ADA problem other than to say that is sounds very suspect.
I have found that Code Inspectors and Township "Inspectors" are usually in over their heads when it comes to specifications - and especially when it comes to very specific issues like signs regulations. The qualification of our former Code Enforcement Officer was that she was the Carriage Driver for horse rides through Gettysburg (it took them about 3 years to fire her - she couldn't pass the State tests). Yes, her job was literally following a horses a$$, and I guarantee you, she was well qualified here in Gettysburg
You may also be able to verify the information with the Department of Labor and Industry in PA.
posted
No help here either since I live in Canada....BUT....
What I don't understand is why there are raised braille dots on the buttons on the ATM machine in the drive thru lane?
I can understand them on the ATM in the lobby of the bank...but the drive thru???
(I know, I know, make them all the same and save money)
Just seemed kinda humorous to me!!!
-------------------- Dave Grundy retired in Chelem,Yucatan,Mexico/Hensall,Ontario,Canada 1-519-262-3651 Canada 011-52-1-999-102-2923 Mexico cell 1-226-785-8957 Canada/Mexico home
posted
No kidding Gene! The inspector even wants - get this - "handicap route" signs - with braille - on the walls of the parking garage directing people to the elevators. Um...
I've got a call into the codes department of the township. We'll see!
-------------------- Rick Tam Arte Design Studio Downingtown, PA milne2@msn.com Posts: 278 | From: Downingtown, PA | Registered: Apr 2004
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Do you have any information on your states ADA and Fire Safety?
In California, we have the Federal ADA and ADAAG, then we have the state Title 24 (ADA) Title 19 (State Fire Marshall) Prop. 65, Health and Safety Code and the State Uniform Building Code when dealing with apartment signage.
You may want to find your state fire code since your escape plans may be based on that code, not a federal ADA code or your uniform building code. There are elements that have to comply with ADA (usually contrast and non-glare) but that is the first time I heard a map needed it. In California the local fire marshal inspect the emergency escape plans Ask the inspector where to find the exact code that the signs are being inspected from, they should be able to proved that or the violation by the code number that you can look up to comply with.
In California, we do not usually require the apartment room signs to have braille and tactile. Just the service and signs that deal with operation. Fire escape plans would be huge if they had to comply with ADA minimum braille and tactile size requirements so you need to get that clarified by the local township
On the accessible route signs, we do have a requirement in California that deals with accessible path. A braille and tactille sign is required at every illuminated "EXIT" sign or guiding to exit where a decision point is made (this is in out title 19 Fire Code), for wheelchair bound guest, we have "area of refuge"
Dave brought out ATM braille signs.... this is possible the most used braille signs. if you are blind, you would most likely hire a cab to take you to an ATM, you can stay in the cab while using ATM services in relative safety.
[ June 30, 2008, 12:29 AM: Message edited by: Rick Chavez ]
-------------------- Rick Chavez Hemet, CA Posts: 1538 | From: Hemet,CA U.S.A. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Good points and good links, Rick. I've read through those PA codes before, but the problem here is that each township seems to take their own interpretation of the building code, then add some oddball stuff. I can't get a straight answer out of anyone, including the township...very, very frustrating!
-------------------- Rick Tam Arte Design Studio Downingtown, PA milne2@msn.com Posts: 278 | From: Downingtown, PA | Registered: Apr 2004
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posted
Hey Rick, Don't quote me, because it's been about 4 or 5 years since I've dealt with a similar situation. But, I think he's referring to evacuation route signs, which, going from memory, should be required on buildings with 3 or more stories. These signs are required to be Braille and indicate evacuation routes and/or areas of rescue. They're similar to what is pictured here... http://www.sign-maker.net/s-tactile-braille.htm Also going from memory, there should be a state access board/UCC phone number to call with code questions. I don't have a phone book around, but it is in the "blue pages". The only catch is whether the municipality elected to abide by the state UCC. If not, it could be a whole different can of worms. This information is available here... http://www.dli.state.pa.us/landi/lib/landi/bois/asb_lead_ucc_updates/uccmun.htm
Good luck,
Checkers
-------------------- a.k.a. Brian Born www.CheckersCustom.com Harrisburg, Pa Work Smart, Play Hard Posts: 3775 | From: Harrisburg, Pa. U.S.A. | Registered: Nov 1998
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this is sort of a more general answer, since i don't live in PA.
when I run into inspectors who seem to be creating rules on their own, I always ask them how I can get a copy of the code they are working from. this way you have in writing what they have, and you can get more specific with your questions. you can also point to things and then ask how they arrived at their interpretation.
Oakland is in the process of rewriting their own fire code for the evacuation signs and they are screwing it up completely. it is always a mystery to me why a city thinks its limited staff can invent something better than the national codes that are the result of hundreds of people contributions. oh well.
as for ATM machines in Braille - the reason is that a sighted person could drive their visually impaired friend to the bank to use the ATM machine. (plus, why make two different designs - it really is easier to just make them all the same. the bank can afford the cost of the Braille dots.)
-------------------- :: Scooter Marriner :: :: Coyote Signs :: :: Oakland, CA :: :: still a beginner :: :: Posts: 1356 | From: Oakland (and San Francisco) | Registered: Mar 2001
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) and couldn't find my answer. I'm hoping some of my PA co-horts might know: I'm in the process of signing a multi-story apartment building. I have what I thought were all the required ADA signage for exits and rooms, but the township inspector came through today and said that my evacuation maps next to the elevators also have to be ADA compliant - raised graphic and all. I disagree, since how is a blind person supposed to read an evac map? Maybe I need to have 'In case of fire use stairs' in braille? I'm missing something vital here, and I can't find a coherent website that outlines exactly what signs are required for housing in PA.
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