posted
I was going to respond further to John Deaton's post, but thought it might be better if this had its own thread.
I confess, I scratch my head when I hear about someone having a rough go of it because business is slow. I can understand there being regional issues such as the one Rick Beisiegel is experiencing due to the auto industry. I live in a small town of about 45,000 people and I'm roughly an hour away from any large business/population centers, currently have 8 competitors nearby and I'm swamped.
The only thing I can think of is that my shop is pretty diverse in all that it offers. This makes me wonder if those who are have hit a rough patch are simply too limited in their repertoire of available services to cope with market changes and increased competition.
For example, right now I'm working on several t-shirt orders. One of these customers has asked me if I'd be interested in handling distribution orders since I'm already doing it for another client. I'm also in the midst of striping and lettering a fleet of about 10 trucks for one client and 12 cement trucks for another client. Thursday I'll be screen printing OEM marketing decals for three separate equipment manufacturers who are in different states. Meanwhile, I have a couple small sandblasted signs in the final paint stages and expect to have them completed by the end of the week; and in the middle of designing an new subdivision entrance sign.
The nice thing about this kind of diversification is that where one area of business drops off, another tends to pick up.
For those of you having a rough time right now, how diverse are you right now? Is it really the economy or is it the market?
And for those who are doing well, what is it about your business/location/market that is working for you?
posted
Glenn used to ask us..."So, you are busy, but how much money are you keeping?" I'm sure Glenn is keeping his fair share and is not just busy because he does everything cheaply. From knowing Glenn for several years, he does just about everything right.
As I talk to folks around the country there are people in the same area who are swamped with work and others that are watching Oprah in the afternoon and both are first rate shops who do good work.
This time last year we were snowed under with work and some other local shops were really struggling. Now, the tables are reversed.
I still see the glass as half full. In the past we have survived the slow times and just when it seemed like the Perfect Storm was about to swamp the boat, a few jobs would come in and then the flood gates would be opened and we would be turning away work to competitors.
Although we do a diversity of signs, dimensional work is our specialty. Usually several times a year we pick up some large wayfinding project or sign system that fills the shop for a few months.
It's not that I don't know how to bring in business...it's just that I become lax and get involved in some pet project and can't pull my head out of the clouds. Practicality has never been one of my strong suites. But I'm learning. I'm listening to all you business heads. Tomorrow for sure. Right now I just thought of this really neat carved box I could make for Jeanne.
-------------------- Chapman Sign Studio Temple, Texas chapmanstudio@sbcglobal.net Posts: 6306 | From: Temple, Texas, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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So this is a thought for John Deaton, and it relates to a previous post that has been closed to further posts...You are realy good at capturing the "Toon" side of things...Design a Toon style clipart set, ie... multiple CD's, and market it to the "environmentalists" groups that could use that kind of "kool" stuff in there signs and other printed merchandice. Its a Hot topic right now and more than likely will get more intense in the future. Never know, ya just mite get a plug from old Al... and don't forget the screen printing/embriodery market as well. If Digital Art Solutions can get $300.00 to $400.00 for each of their clip art volumes then you should be able to tap into that market as well, cause your stuff is just as good as theirs, if not bettter. Maybe this clipart stuff is your nitch in life, and if you enjoy it...all the better.
[ March 06, 2007, 07:12 PM: Message edited by: Robin Sharrard ]
-------------------- Robin Sharrard Sharrard Graphics & Sign Fallon, Nevada rds@phonewave.net "Proud $$$ Supporter" Posts: 282 | From: Fallon, Nevda, USA | Registered: Feb 1999
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I,m Sorry Glenn, but I think in a situation such as Johns, Diversification is not the problem. Have you seen the guys website. As far as a "Sign shop", I think he covers the board pretty good. His market is the problem. Simple as that. As many years as he's been in it, he should be one of the top shops in his area. Since he is not, it can only be a market issue. His market obviously does not care for quality, it's all about price.
In our area we would starve also if it wasn't for tourism. Without it, the local yocals around here would go to the cheapest place they could get it. Only good money I have made in this area has been from "new" clients moving to the are from larger cities to set up shop and they are used to paying a higher price. If I had to try to compete with what John is going thru, I would have folded a long time ago.
And also, for some, diversification is not all that it's cracked up to be. I have no desire to do t-shirts, screen printed coro, engraving, web design, biz cards, brochures, etc... just not my bag. So if I had to do that, which I would not be happy doing, why would I? I think I would just soon work for someone else if I could not be happy doing what I do. Save on the owning your own biz headaches. Know what I mean?
Robin is on the same track as I am. I think Ol' John needs to try to capture a market for what he loves. If it's 'Toons (which his are some of the best I have ever seen), this might be the opening of the door to give him time to per sue it while punching a clock. If is his heart is signs (which, with his talent with the pen would really be a waste) then he'll just have to ride out the storm the best way he knows how.
Now after that long winded spout, I will get to my point. It's real easy to sit back and try to anylize someone else problem from afar. But unless your in there town and in there shoes, you really have know clue. Everybody....EVERYBODY...in this biz has been were John is at in life if they have been in it as long as he has. And judging by the area where he lives, I'd say he had a damn good run!
Goin' home....
-------------------- Snow's Sign Works 865-908-0076 snowman@planetc.com www.snowsigns.com
I'm out of my mind, but feel free to leave a message... Posts: 1640 | From: Sevierville, TN | Registered: Jul 2005
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You can't change the economy and control how people spend their money. The only thing you can do is market to people that are spending money.
You can't dictate what the market wants. All you can do is put your wares out there for everyone to see and market it so they see it and maybe they realize they want it.
From there, it's all about the product. It doesn't matter how good the product is if there's no demand for it.
Maybe it takes a diverse set of products in order to find the one that actually moves. The Coca Cola Company has thousands of different products and brands on the shelves, and they develop hundreds more every year that never get any shelf time. Chevy put millions into the SSR and that truck was a total flop, but they turned around and Xerox'd the PT Cruiser, made the HHR and that car is a hot ticket. Restaurants add and drop menu items all the time until they find good sellers.
The sign industry is the same as any other industry out there, regardless of how many people think "this crazy business" is different from everything else. You have to find a way to tap into the market at the economic level that will sustain your business, and more likely than not, that means finding the right product.
Maybe you're like Dan Sawatzky and find a product that appeals to a very limited market, but is at a high economic level. Maybe you find a product with a fairly broad appeal which balances the economic side fairly well. Maybe your product is low on the economic totem pole, now you have to be sure you have a HUGE market appeal for that product or you're going to be hurting. A niche product here is at the risk of being *too* niche.
Or maybe the product is great, has a wide market appeal, and individual sales provide nice profit margins... but it's not marketed as well as it could be or in the right place.
Is an artwork collection promoted on a forum or in a trade magazine read by mostly talented and creative people, not to mention just a very small sampling of all the sign shops out there who likely don't read mags or websites that might help them improve their craft, really being promoted in the right place?
Could the artwork be better served if promoted in say... a Sign Warehouse or Fellers catalog, or any number of sign supplier catalogs that will get more views than a forum site or magazine could ever dream of? Not to mention the fact that sign shops would be seeing the artwork in the catalog every time they open it thus building familiarity.
-------------------- "If I share all my wisdom I won't have any left for myself."
Mike Pipes stickerpimp.com Lake Havasu, AZ mike@stickerpimp.com Posts: 8746 | From: Lake Havasu, AZ USA | Registered: Jun 2000
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I had to price a dump truck on the weekend.The owner doesn't want anything fancy and not bigger than 7"x11" and a couple stripes.How can anyone make a living like that?
-------------------- Randall Campbell Randy's Graphics, 420 Fairfield N. Hamilton Ontario Canada Posts: 2857 | From: Hamilton Ontario Canada | Registered: Jan 2002
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Just because you decide to take on another job doesn't mean you need to quit doing sign work. In fact, it will allow you to keep a few of your best customers, pick and choose your projects and make it much more enjoyable for you... Ask me how I know. (Ok, you didn't ask, but I'll tell ya anyhow...)
I worked fulltime in the sign industry for quite a few years for a sign shop. After that I had my own shop (with a partner, another story entirely) for a few years as well... we did screen printed shirts, screen printed signs, laser engraving, plaques, acrylic trophies, t-ball/racing trophies, heat-transfer shirts, large lighted signs, brick monument signs... about every other kind of sign you could imagine, vehicle lettering, lots of racecar lettering, color copying, printing, business cards and brochure design. We did this all in-house, not just offer it and sub it out... in order to survive in the small town we were in, this was necessary.
Had 2 employees and we worked our everlivin' arses off... always stayed busy, but was it worth it? When my partner started rarely showing up, and all the stress and strain of keeping all that together was on my shoulders, I eventually burned out and was ready to get out... so we sold the business.
Now I work full-time as a CAD person and permit puller for my fathers contracting company, and make good money at it... it allows me a flexible schedule to have a pretty decent sign business on the side. I still make the signs, but sub out any screen printing or a lot of the other things I used to offer.
AND I'M MUCH HAPPIER. The stress of running a business is off my shoulders. I have a steady income, plus have time to concentrate on the things I enjoy in the sign business... and cull my jobs to be more profitable as well.
So the moral of this book I just wrote is: having my own business was not all it was cracked up to be, I was more tied down then than I am now. If the situation is not right to support your family, find a job that allows you the flexibility to still do the profitable things that you like doing.... and let someone else have all the headaches.
-------------------- Jon Jantz Snappysign.com jjantz21@gmail.com http://www.allcw.com Posts: 3395 | From: Atmore, AL | Registered: Nov 2005
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quote:Originally posted by jake snow: I,m Sorry Glenn, but I think in a situation such as Johns, Diversification is not the problem. Have you seen the guys website. As far as a "Sign shop", I think he covers the board pretty good. His market is the problem. Simple as that. As many years as he's been in it, he should be one of the top shops in his area. Since he is not, it can only be a market issue.
This is going to get long winded, so let me apologize in advance. Brevity has never been one of my strong suits.
Speaking to John's situation directly, I'm going to disagree somewhat. Yes, the market is the problem, but also I believe that diversification, or lack thereof, is the problem. It may be that due to an evolving market, John isn't diverse enough.
First, let me preface by saying that no one really knows John's situation better than John. I'm basing my comments strictly on what he has said publicly and on my own observations. John has a talent that I envy. It bugs the crap out of me to see someone like him with whom I have a great deal of respect having to go through what he's experiencing right now.
That said, here goes....
IMHO, there are 3 types of sign shops in our industry. One that makes signs. One that makes money. One that makes both.
That last one is fast becoming a rarity.
From what I can see, John's market is flat and saturated with scores of other shops doing sign work.
But a little voice in the back of my mind wonders if his market is really flat. Are there any other shops thriving in his area? If so, why? What are they doing different? If I were John and I really wanted to stay in this industry, I think I'd try to find out why.
But lets assume that everyone is having a tough time and "natural selection" is doing a little weeding out. What does John do? He's out pounding the pavement, knocking on doors, passing out flyers and business cards, but nothing is working. Quality and talent aren't the issue. There are simply too many taking a slice of the pie and there isn't enough of a slice to make a meal with.
Well, my answer to is to go out and get another pie.
Here is what runs through my mind.
John can go find another job, but will he be happy?
John can try to ride it out, but it looks like that the situation may not allow him to do that for much longer.
John can try to find other markets that fit his talents and abilities, but he may have to develop some additional skill sets.
There are a lot of markets out there. Many of whom have overlapping interests.
To me, John's talent for cartooning and layouts is a natural for screen printing t-shirts. I know from experience that adding that feature to his business would help him expand his market. There may not be enough of a slice of the pie in either the sign business or the screen printing business, but put the two slices together and he might have enough for a meal.
Does John offer screen printing services? I don't know. I can't recall a time ever saying he did. But if I were him, I'd give it serious consideration. He doesn't have to do it in-house (although that might be the more profitable option). He can find a screen printer who's willing to wholesale to him.
What else can John do? How about business cards and letterheads? I've seen here where others have begun to offer that service. I've begun to offer it myself. Again, he won't make a living off of it alone, but combined with his other services every bit helps to add to that slice of pie.
Its not going to be easy, but I think in the end diversification will help even out the highs and the lows that John is experiencing because diversification will have helped expand his market.
Not everyone can juggle doing a wider assortment of things, but John can. He has the intelligence. He has the ability.
Much of what I'm suggesting is similar to what Dan Antonelli has done with his business. Its been fascinating to me to see how his business has morphed over the past several years.
But what about the other stuff John has done such as his clip art business? Thats diversification.
Yes, it is. But I have spoken to enough people to know that its an even tougher market. Even if John was able to pick up some distributors, its tough. I bet Mike Jackson would tell us that its no panacea. It doesn't mean that John should drop it though. Again, every bit adds to the slice of the pie.
quote:If I had to try to compete with what John is going thru, I would have folded a long time ago.
Yep. I've said the same thing. If I only did signs, I would have given up a long time ago.
quote:And also, for some, diversification is not all that it's cracked up to be. I have no desire to do t-shirts, screen printed coro, engraving, web design, biz cards, brochures, etc... just not my bag.
I used to be the same way. To tell the truth, I used to hate the sign business until the bug bit one day.
But you made a very important point - desire.
What does John desire? More importantly, what is he willing to do to fulfill it?
quote:Now after that long winded spout, I will get to my point. It's real easy to sit back and try to anylize someone else problem from afar. But unless your in there town and in there shoes, you really have know clue.
You're right. I understand your point exactly. But I also know this. I can go into any town no matter how big or how small. I don't care how many competitors are in town. It doesn't matter if its just one or a thousand. I could have the best location or the crappiest. It makes no difference. I can start a company there and be busy making money.
Why?
Because I've built my business in such a way that it doesn't matter.
My shop is out of the way. I have a terrible location. Steve & Barb and a few others have seen it. I do very little advertising. Very little. I have competitors who are just as capable at doing much of what I do. My design ability is mediocre at best. Illustration? Pfffffttt.
Through hard work and some risk from time to time, I've built my business in such a way that roughly 60 to 70% of my business is from out-of-town and out-of-state. Economic ups and downs don't have the effect on me as they once did.
I had to make a choice to make a while back. I could make signs or I could make money. In the end, I had to choose money. What I found is that once I made that choice and began listening to what the market was telling me it wanted, I was able to do both.
I'll be the first to admit, making thousands of warning decals is hardly exciting, but it pays a lot of bills. It also allows me the luxury of being able to pick and choose the kind of sign work I want to do and not be afraid to charge for what the job is worth.
But you said the magic word. Desire. That applies to everyone. What is John willing to do to obtain what he desires?
That's just my 2¢. I hope it made sense and didn't sound too preachy. I'm bad for that.
quote:I had to make a choice to make a while back. I could make signs or I could make money. In the end, I had to choose money. What I found is that once I made that choice and began listening to what the market was telling me it wanted, I was able to do both.
posted
I am watching the Govenor on television right now. Michigan has lost 261,000 manufacturing jobs in the last 6 years. Not counting the trickle down other jobs lost as a result of all the closed plants
That being said, the only solution is to cut our own budget, attempt to live within our means, and keep going forward. Foe some of us, that means going to work for somewhere else. Perhaps even in an unrelated field.
Last week, you all were so supportiive when I mentioned the fact that some here have had to seek "shelter" by getting outside employment.
If you are busy, GREAT! and perhaps it will come around again. But, until then you gotta do what you gotta do.
""Good judgment comes from experience; and a lot of that comes from bad judgment" - Will Rogers Posts: 3485 | From: Beautiful Newaygo, Michigan | Registered: Mar 2003
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Interesting thread here. Check out my last SignCraft article in the newest issue. It talks a lot about what the challenges are facing those in the sign business.
New Jersey is its own economy - and although 75% of our work is NJ based, Im always surprised to land a good gig (say, 10g's worth of logo, web and brochure work) from an area which I might think is economically depressed.
Provide a service that very few companies can match - and people will seek you out. Thankfully, we are cranking here. Just hired my 7th employee - another designer - and next week, we move into our brand new digs - new office space for our studio -- very high end, and very 'ad agency-ish'. I can't wait to have clients come to our new office. Its going to set the tone for the type of company they are dealing with...
I couldn't find John's thread - but John is very talented and also I thought diversified in his service offering.
"Some are born to move the world, to live their fantasies. But most of us just dream about the things we'd like to be." - Rush Posts: 1192 | From: Washington, NJ | Registered: Feb 1999
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Glenn posed some important questions. There are others.
Before rushing off in any direction (or madly off in all directions), the prudent thing for John (who's talent and character I also greatly admire) would be to conduct a thorough analysis of his business, his marketplace and the situation in which he finds himself today.
Understanding the problem(s) is (are) prequisite to finding the solution(s).
This applies to anyone whose business is struggling, of course...but is also useful for answering questions like "How do we maintain/grow our business?"
[ March 08, 2007, 07:14 AM: Message edited by: Jon Aston ]
-------------------- Jon Aston MARKETING PARTNERS "Strategy, Marketing and Business Development" Tel 705-719-9209 Posts: 1724 | From: Barrie, ON, CANADA | Registered: Sep 2000
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