posted
I know this has been discussed here before, but I am still curious. For those that have "opted out" of advertising in the yellow pages, have you noticed any negative effect on your business?
The reason I ask is a Rep from one of the phonebook companies (we have 3) just came by and they have been bought by a much larger company. Now I get the honor of paying over twice as much for my ad. I don't really care that they are now the world's largest phonebook, 99.5% of my business is within 25 miles of my shop.
Needless to say, I did not re-up for this one. I'm beginning to ponder the impact of any ad in the other directories as well. What do you do in your area?
Thanks in advance
-------------------- David Cooper, The Sign Shack Enid, OK. Posts: 658 | From: Enid,Oklahoma, USA | Registered: Dec 1998
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posted
In this trade I think that the yellow pages are good for those who haven't a reputation of work ethics as of yet. A following to be more exact. Businesses who have that kind of following needn't advertise through that media unless they need more of what kind of persons are attracted to the yellow page ad itself.
Ya follow me??
-------------------- HotLines Joey Madden - pinstriping since 1952 'Perfection, its what I look for and what I live for'
posted
My phonebook ad cost me a lot more than I made off of it. I don't even have my name in the phone book at all anymore and I'm busier than ever. All referals from other customers or shops that don't do the type of work we do. Some internet too.
-------------------- Amy Brown Life Skills 101 Private Address Posts: 3502 | From: Lake Helen, FL, USA | Registered: Feb 2001
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Dropped my phone book ad years ago...mostly got calls from people shopping price...always told them "if you are looking for the best job, lets talk...if you are looking for the best price, I'm not your guy"....I get all my work from referrals.
It is also real easy to get caught up in an ad size competition with the other shops in the area...
[ June 29, 2006, 03:10 PM: Message edited by: Jim Moser ]
-------------------- Life is not about waiting for the storm to pass... It's about learning to dance in the rain ! Jim Moser Design 13342 C Grass Valley Ave. Grass Valley, Ca. 95945 530-273-7615 jwmoser@att.net Posts: 488 | From: Grass Valley, Ca. | Registered: May 2006
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do like i did...get an add for a year...DONT PAY EM....THEY WONT BOTHER YOU ANYMORE.....all i have is a single line add for commercial phone...under SIGNS. but A SIGN MINT is right near the top of the list.....so i still get a lot of phone calls from it.....all the other adds i tryed in the phone book was TRUCK LETTERING/BAOT LETTERING....the phone company put me under TRUCK & BOAT....."REPAIR" now i get tons of junk mail for REBUILT MOTORS/BOAT/TRUCK, PROP & TRUCK/ MARINE PARTS, USED CAR DEALER CRAP....
-------------------- joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-637-1519 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
I dropped my phone ad years ago (tired of tire kickers & price shoppers), but if you are a newer unestablished shop then I'd stick with at least a small ad for a while. I have a regular client base, and I keep in touch with them "making sure they are happy". The new business I get is strictly from referal or networking (best way to get business).
Edited to add...
My advice may not be the best, seeing as how I'm not a millionare, just comfortable, and I have enough business to keep me (a one man show) busy.
quote:Originally posted by coop: For those that have "opted out" of advertising in the yellow pages, have you noticed any negative effect on your business?
No.
-------------------- Brian Snyder Sign Effectz Woodbridge, New Jersey Posts: 723 | From: Woodbridge, NJ USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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i decided that next year i'm nixing my $142/mo yellow page ad....i'll still be in listing part but not have the block ad in the back. next year the router will be paid off and then i can save like $800 a month in payments....shaaa-wing! good to see that others don't think its all that and more.
-------------------- Karyn Bush Simply Not Ordinary, LLC Bartlett, NH 603-383-9955 www.snosigns.com info@snosigns.com Posts: 3516 | From: Bartlett, NH USA | Registered: Jan 2001
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posted
Thanks for the responses. Kinda what I figured.
By the way, I've been at this 8+ years now, so I'm just at the point where I know enough to get into trouble. The Lion's share of my business is repeat/referrals.
My post was more of a rant than anything, but I sincerely appreciate everyone's input.
Ya'll have a great weekend!
-------------------- David Cooper, The Sign Shack Enid, OK. Posts: 658 | From: Enid,Oklahoma, USA | Registered: Dec 1998
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posted
I hate to be the defender of Yellow Pages...but if your YP ads aren't delivering results, isn't it possible that your ad is the reason (and not the media itself)?
-------------------- Jon Aston MARKETING PARTNERS "Strategy, Marketing and Business Development" Tel 705-719-9209 Posts: 1724 | From: Barrie, ON, CANADA | Registered: Sep 2000
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posted
yet just another " intelligent " statement from OP...
quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- do like i did...get an add for a year...DONT PAY EM....THEY WONT BOTHER YOU ANYMORE..... --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Now why would you say something like that?!!
What would you do if one of your customers had that mind set with you? If that isn't one on the dumbest statements I've heard in a long time.... apperently you dont read so good either....READ THE LAST PART OF THE POST.......now i get tons of JUNK MAIL thanks to THE YELLOW PAGES putting my name under TRUCK & BOAT REPAIR....i do TRUCK & BOAT LETTERING...you with me yet????? i understand new englanders ...once was one...(caribou, mainer)
-------------------- joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-637-1519 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
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quote: I hate to be the defender of Yellow Pages...but if your YP ads aren't delivering results, isn't it possible that your ad is the reason
Sometimes, but not usually. The yellow page are not read with cofee and donuts in da morning. They are used for someone searching you out IF you have a complete marketing plan. The yellow pages are more likely the LAST stop for someone looking for your number if you are using more ways to generate calls. IMHO. I have used all sizes shapes and colors of YP. Not one made a difference in the number of calls. Just before the storm was record setting year for us with just a 2" colum ad. Our stats show something else would trigger the call but they got or confirmed the phone number from the YP.
Yellow pages do not produce much if a bizz just places an add and waits for the calls to magically appear.. Use as many ways as possible to get your name out to trigger calls. Use the YP as a final stop for your phone number. A small presence is all that is needed if you are doing a number of other things.. Then its all a numbers game. 10 REAL (not tire kickers) INFO calls means 8 appointments, means 6 extension to a contract. If you get 10 calls and 10 jobs then your price is too low. If all you get is tire kickers then you are not doing enuf to get REAL INFO calls.
Also the client value is how much is he goona spend in your place a year. You want more profit? get a higher client value. (higher average sale).
-------------------- Leaper of Tall buildings.. If you find my posts divisive or otherwise snarky please ignore them. If you do not know how then PM me about it and I will demonstrate. Posts: 5274 | From: Im a nowhere man | Registered: Jul 2001
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posted
Been there, done that, got only tire-kickers. I wouldn't take out an ad in the phone book if it was FREE. Spend your $$ on a new sign out front or fresh truck lettering. love....Jill
Posts: 8834 | From: Butler, PA, USA | Registered: Jan 2001
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"Some are born to move the world, to live their fantasies. But most of us just dream about the things we'd like to be." - Rush Posts: 1192 | From: Washington, NJ | Registered: Feb 1999
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You sell websites, don't you? Maybe you should think about becoming a Letterville Merchant.
-------------------- Jon Aston MARKETING PARTNERS "Strategy, Marketing and Business Development" Tel 705-719-9209 Posts: 1724 | From: Barrie, ON, CANADA | Registered: Sep 2000
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posted
We were left out of the yellow pages one year and we didn't really notice a big difference other than we got a lot fewer calls with dumb questions like: "How much are your signs?" & "Can I come over and pick that up now?" We get our customers from happy customers telling others and our service and yes, we find a good web site is helpful! We use our web site a bunch, especailly for long distance customers to qualify ourselves as doing quality work. The yellow pages might help you if you are new, to get your name out there, but advertising on your own vehicle with an awesome job and being good to your customers will get you MUCH more work and less hassle from "shoppers".
-------------------- Jane Diaz Diaz Sign Art 628 W. Lincoln Ave. Pontiac, Il. 61764 815-844-7024 www.diazsignart.com Posts: 4102 | From: Pontiac, IL USA | Registered: Feb 1999
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posted
about 60-70% of our work is repeat stuff for existing clients. Our YP ad does bring in work- not heaps, but it is worth it to us- and seldom bothers us with tyre kickers. I still don't like the fee we pay for it, though. Yesterday I had a phone call from an advertising company in Melbourne (that's 1600 km south) wanting a quote for us to do 24 installations in two nearby shopping centres about 60 & 100 km away, and how soon can we start. They supply everything but the stainless steel wire & clips. She said she picked us from the YP. All I could say was 'thanks'! Today the YP rep for next year called in- I'm surprised he found us- hmmm, I wonder if the two calls were coincidental!
-------------------- "Stewey" on chat
"...there are no limits when you aim for perfection..." Jonathan Livingston Seagull Posts: 7014 | From: Highgrove via Toowoomba, Queensland, Australia | Registered: Dec 2002
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My mind wanders. And that's not a good thing, 'cause it's too small to be out there alone. Posts: 3129 | From: Tooele, UT | Registered: Mar 2005
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posted
We do sell web sites Jon, - but the point of my post was not to solicit business, if that's what you're implying. I'm pretty certain most people on the board know my design firms sell web sites to sign guys and dozens of other trades, but if that fact means I can't post relevant info on a related subject because I'm not a vendor here, then I guess I can't post on a lot of subjects here.
If someone posts a logo critique and I respond, does that too become self promotional because I wrote two books on the subject? If thats the case, I really can't say too much on this board anymore.
Because you are a merchant, does that give you some additional posting rights?
The point of my post was to try and educate Coop on some other opportunities that exist online in marketing their business. While it may appear selfserving. I invite him and anyone else to call any client of ours to inquire about the success of their online campaigns that we orhestrated. I really don't care who Coop or anyone else might ultimately decide to use should he endeavor to do it - but the information is still relevant and valid to Coop. Read the next issue of SignCraft and you can see what I'm talking about as it relates to web design for sign companies. For me, it doesnt matter who you use - but if I can educated a few hundred people about the pitfalls to avoid, and help them make a more sound decision about their online marketing, then mission accomplished, for me.
And in all the years of being on this board, I've sold not one web site to anyone here as a result of this board. That's not why I'm here anyway.
Maybe I'm off base here, I do apologize. I felt my motives were being questioned here, and I take that very seriously.
"Some are born to move the world, to live their fantasies. But most of us just dream about the things we'd like to be." - Rush Posts: 1192 | From: Washington, NJ | Registered: Feb 1999
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Coop, personally I don't believe in yellow page advertising in general.
As a consumer, I rarely use it to find businesses, but rather to look up the numbers or addresses of businesses I'm about to use, whom have been referred to me.
As a business, I have not been in any yellow or white phone book pages yet. My business all comes from referrals.
The only money I've made from the phone books have been the ad layouts I've done for my customers who have listings in there.
I'm on board with Dan with regards to websites. When Dave and I first did my website, and then went on to design others, I realized that websites would soon be the wave over phone book listings. Heck, I use the internet more than I do the phone book for looking up stuff!
The advantages of a website out weigh that of a phone book listing because it's correctable, can be kept current, and best yet, it's interactive!
Verizon even got on board with that early on, by offering website design pages. They knew the score, and got proactive in getting in on the action.
~nettie
-------------------- "When Love and Skill Work Together ... Expect a Masterpiece"
posted
Dan, I don't think you're off base here. I for one value your input on other people's designs & ideas- this board would be a lesser place without it. Please keep up the comments!
It's also a bit like the vintage car club I was a member of for 10 years- I never striped a single vintage vehicle for any members while I was one of them. Before then, plus after we let membership lapse we did a few, but not while one of them!
-------------------- "Stewey" on chat
"...there are no limits when you aim for perfection..." Jonathan Livingston Seagull Posts: 7014 | From: Highgrove via Toowoomba, Queensland, Australia | Registered: Dec 2002
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Just a well meaning suggestion...and a plug for Steve and Barb. Sorry it came across otherwise. I can see why it would. I should have used a smiley, or something.
You do have to admit that Letterville seems like a pretty good fit for promoting your company's services...and you can't beat the price.
If you were to become a Letterville merchant, perhaps the fact that you've "not sold one website to anyone here as a result of this board" could change.
-------------------- Jon Aston MARKETING PARTNERS "Strategy, Marketing and Business Development" Tel 705-719-9209 Posts: 1724 | From: Barrie, ON, CANADA | Registered: Sep 2000
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posted
I would also suggest putting the efforts into a website.
If you want a YP listing go for it but include your website on the ad. In fact include a website on all advertising.
Yellow pages are fine for some but the YP doesn't qualify your services to potential clients before they call, nor does it qualify potential customers.
OK so you get a phone call from the YP ad. It's some guy looking for a $10 sticker and that's not the kind of work you do. Had that person known about your website he could have taken a look and realized that you specialize in high end carved signs - or whatever type of work you want to focus on - and not wasted anyone's time with a misdirected phone call.
Or let's say a contractor is looking for something sweet for a vehicle or a new development. If you have a website he can look at your portfolio conveniently from his office and decide right away if you are the place for him.
Maybe you sell some things out of state or maybe you don't, either way it doesn't matter because locals would rather go to a website at their convenience than come to your shop to look through a portfolio.
-------------------- "If I share all my wisdom I won't have any left for myself."
Mike Pipes stickerpimp.com Lake Havasu, AZ mike@stickerpimp.com Posts: 8746 | From: Lake Havasu, AZ USA | Registered: Jun 2000
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-------------------- Tony Vickio The World Famous Vickio Signs 3364 Rt.329 Watkins Glen, NY 14891 t30v@vickiosigns.com 607-535-6241 http://www.vickiosigns.com Posts: 1063 | From: Watkins Glen, New York | Registered: Sep 2001
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I did a study some years ago, and the results might suprise you.
Most business's {this might not mean your business, so don't go off to load your gun and shoot me} work on a 10% net net profit after ALL expenses are paid including you. SOOOOOOOOO.
If you spend $300.00 per month on a Y/P add you need to be bringing in $3000.00 of NEW business every month, just to pay for that add.
This must be NEW BUSINESS, not residual business, NOT referal business, NEW BUSINESS.
Do the math. $3000.00 new business every month X 12 months = $96,000.00 new business each year just to cover the cost of Y/P advertising.
HOW ARE YOU DOING?
The ONLY ONE making money on Y/P adds is.......... ??
-------------------- Bob Cole American Sign Company 14163 Akron Canfield Rd. Berlin Center, Ohio 44401
A.K.A. Vinylman® Posts: 575 | From: Berlin Center, Ohio, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Something to bear in mind about Yellow Pages nowadays: Phone directories (with YPs) have become another medium of mass junk-advertising. Even in the (relatively) small metro area of Lexington KY, there must be about 4 or so of those big things dumped on your porch, whether you subscribe to all those providers or not. The providers I don't use, I told not to trespass or litter my property. One of them wouldn't listen to me, so he was told by the Attorney General.
So when you think about YP advertising, which YP? All of them? I suspect the whole concept has saturation-bombed itself into junk mail without postage.
-------------------- Bruce Williams Lexington KY Posts: 945 | From: Lexington, KY, USA | Registered: Mar 1999
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posted
You guys didn't read my post very carefully.
New equipment, ANY equipment can pay for itself out of the 90% you normally use to cover ALL overhead and wages..
And Karen, I'm not suggesting anyone should pay 10% of their gross for advertising. What I did say was that if you are neting 10% AFTER all expenses, then you need to make over $3000.00 in new business to pay for the $300.00 Y/P add. I did the math and I KNOW that it is factual.
Regards Bob C.
-------------------- Bob Cole American Sign Company 14163 Akron Canfield Rd. Berlin Center, Ohio 44401
A.K.A. Vinylman® Posts: 575 | From: Berlin Center, Ohio, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
If every one,, every single business would reduce thier YP display ads by 1/2, or just used in column ads then they would HAVE to reduce their rates..
But instead they use the mind games, and subtle threats of losing discounts, and the old stand by,, what is your competition doing" ploys. Those of us who really do not know fall prey.
They are masters of the FUD factor. (fear uncertainty doubt).Yes, there are some biz's that use a large first page ad with success. But I personally do no see a sign person doing it like that.
-------------------- Leaper of Tall buildings.. If you find my posts divisive or otherwise snarky please ignore them. If you do not know how then PM me about it and I will demonstrate. Posts: 5274 | From: Im a nowhere man | Registered: Jul 2001
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I don't completely agree with Jill though..If they offer it for free, sure, I'll put in an ad.
But, Hell, for what it costs for phone service, Yellow page ads should be free anyway!
(Naw..don't need the people who shop for prices, I like the customers I have already and will always like the ones they refer!!)
-------------------- Dave Grundy retired in Chelem,Yucatan,Mexico/Hensall,Ontario,Canada 1-519-262-3651 Canada 011-52-1-999-102-2923 Mexico cell 1-226-785-8957 Canada/Mexico home
posted
We're handling the marketing campaign for a client who is currently spending 125k per year on 800k in revenues.
INSANITY.
We advise all out clients that their ratio should be 3-5% of gross revenue invested in advertising.
We developed their new media plan, reducing their overall expenditures by 65k, and redirecting funds into a new web site, agressive online advertising, collateral development and direct mail.
The client is going to be in love with us shortly. Its a no-brainer.
This is why, same with good signage, that people like us don't cost out clients money - we make them money (or save them money, as in this case).
Sounds strange, but our whole business model is based on having our clients spend less money on their advertising, just spending it in the right places and in the right mediums.
"Some are born to move the world, to live their fantasies. But most of us just dream about the things we'd like to be." - Rush Posts: 1192 | From: Washington, NJ | Registered: Feb 1999
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I promise that I haven't somehow decided to "single you out".
$125K on $800K certainly sounds "insane" at first blush...but it all depends on the business plan...and can only be evaluated within that context.
If your client has very aggressive plans for growth and a strategy for achieving it, maybe there is method to their madness.
In the example below, the fictitious company is clearly planning for aggressive growth. Let's assume that they've done their research and have formulated a convincing strategy for achieving their goals. Advertising & Promotion expenses fall within your recommended 3-5% of Revenue by Year 2 of the the plan, and down to 2% in Year's 3 and 4. Also, within the long-term (4 years) view, total, cumulative numbers also fall within your recommendations.
3-5% is a reasonable amount to propose, in most cases...but not all. All depends on the plan.
-------------------- Jon Aston MARKETING PARTNERS "Strategy, Marketing and Business Development" Tel 705-719-9209 Posts: 1724 | From: Barrie, ON, CANADA | Registered: Sep 2000
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posted
Coop, I'm another one of those who believe your money's better spent on something other than a y/p ad. It's bad enough just gettin' hit by one company, but around here we've got 4 or 5 different overlapping phone books so ya can imagine how often we get pitched. I missed an ad renewal in one of the main books last year & noticed zero difference (no loss) in sales so we've cut back on the rest of 'em now.
Curtis really hit the nail on the head & I agree with him.
p.s. Mike Berry, Old Paint makes perfect sense.....ya just gotta understand how to read "Pribishese"
-------------------- Chris Elliott 1longshot@classicnet.net cell 62084two2232 Posts: 686 | From: Scottsdale, AZ & Anthony, KS, USA | Registered: Dec 1999
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I failed to mention they have 12 employees, 12 commercial vans and when you factor those issues in and their operating overhead, we make the conclusion that their path for growth lies in a more aggressive, cost effect online and direct mail campaign. They are flatlined in growth and the owner makes less money each year.
In our experience, with over 200 other small businesses, 3-5% is sufficient provided the money is directly properly.
You know as well as I, that taking advertising strategy advice from your yellow page rep for the last several years is a recipe for disaster. They always want you to spend more. Sales Flat? Spend more!
We say spend less (in this case a lot less) - just put it where its most effective.
"Some are born to move the world, to live their fantasies. But most of us just dream about the things we'd like to be." - Rush Posts: 1192 | From: Washington, NJ | Registered: Feb 1999
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quote:If your client has very aggressive plans for growth and a strategy for achieving it, maybe there is method to their madness.
The key word here is 'strategy'... Just flinging money out hoeping for the best is not a strategy. He will know if it sgood only if they are keeping good statistics. Then he can see what medium is working or not. Then eliminate that which is not producing. To me spending 17% to produce 800 g's is not producing at all.
First he must know how much it cost to get each new customer. If each real NEW client cost him 100 bux, then 1,000 chould equal ten new clients. YES?
Or, if each new client cost 1,000 bux then 18,000 should bring in 18 new clients. YES?? To me the next step is to find a way to reduce that client cost. Looks like Dan is doing just that.
However, to me this guy is spending WAY too much in ads. 10% at most imho is plenty for high growth if directed to the right place.
-------------------- Leaper of Tall buildings.. If you find my posts divisive or otherwise snarky please ignore them. If you do not know how then PM me about it and I will demonstrate. Posts: 5274 | From: Im a nowhere man | Registered: Jul 2001
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posted
Here's an example of a client that knows how to spend advertising dollars. A very large constuction company called me in to design and letter three white 60 foot office trailers, parked end to end along a very busy freeway.
He wanted his name and logo to span all three trailers.
I said in order to do that, I have to paint over the windows with white and then letter everything, gonna get expensive! His answer was screw them, no need to be looking out at traffic. And If that gets me one customer, it will be well worth many many times whatever you are going to charge!
-------------------- Si Allen #562 La Mirada, CA. USA
(714) 521-4810
si.allen on Skype
siallen@dslextreme.com
"SignPainters do It with Longer Strokes!"
Never mess with your profile while in a drunken stupor!!!
Brushasaurus on Chat Posts: 8827 | From: La Mirada, CA, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Verizon has screwed so many people around here that when a book with legible type that didn't charge you for an ad they forgot to put in the book came into this area, everyone pitched their verizon book. This year AGAIN they forgot to put my FREE listing in their book, what a bunch of clusterflucks.
We now have 3 books, so where should you spend your money? Here it's the EZ to read one that everyone reaches for. What book or books are most commonly used in your area?
You need to have at least a listing in each book. As for an ad? That depends on your area & your own business. I live in small-town America, people generally already know who they want to call & go to the book to find the number. Even if they don't know exactly who they want to call, they go to the book & call the one that sounds familiar so YP ad is in addition to everything else you've done to get your name familiar.
I do have the smallest ad in the most-oft used book here. Why? Cause no other shop around here knows that signs don't have to be rectangles, nor do they know what that stuff in a can is used for & they think that "gold leaf" means signgold or *gasp* fake avery crap. Yes, I have gotten some business from my ad just because of listing those rarities.
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The Lion's share of my business is repeat/referrals.![[Applause]](graemlins/applause.gif)
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