posted
Finally got my SignCraft mag... it's about time. Great issue, love the FauxChrome and the fire trucks. But sadly a small detail got my attention and ( I know this is a big can of worms ), it sometimes makes me sad to see where the (my) industry is going!!!
It all about the overtaking of technology and we have two examples that explains my inner feeling about this.
On one hand we have Dan Sawatzky demonstrating that machinery joined with imaginative brain waves can produce outstanding pieces of work. Great article Dan, never met in person but he feels like a long time buddy. Love the pictures, love your work...
On the other hand, and I sure don't mean to beat up on those guys who I have never met either, but the article just before (4x16 monument sign) has something that bugs me and again it's just my opinion...
The craftmanship looks awesome and we can clearly see on the pictures a well maintained shop, quality equipment, guys wearing proper safety gear, etc... Top quality material being used including aluminum letters for durability and then BOOM !!! "compressed brush script" visually kills the whole project, like a five diamond restaurant serving canned soup.
Again this could be the company logo that they had to use, (I don't know) but it still kills it! It would have been such an easy small and inexpensive step to produce a unique hand lettered file to cut the aluminum even if it includes asking help from guys like Stevo, Dan Antonelli, Mike Meyer or Pierre Tardif to name a few...
I'm sorry if I offended anyone with my text, it was not my purpose, like the title said: it's just an opinion.
As you said...sometimes it's just out of the sign shop's hands. Other times, the sign shop may do amazing architectural design and production work, but lack in lettering design. I am far from an expert in either, but know my limitations, and enlist the aid needed for the desired result whenever budget and time allows.
I haven't seen the new issue, so I can't offer an opinion on the specific work you mention, but I have seen similar things happen.
Just as bad is when you see a beautiful layout, full color, lotsa layers and subtle details, very time-consuming, and then plunked on a piece of coroplast.
-------------------- Joe Endicott NEXCOM (Navy Exchange Service Command) Signing Programs Specialist Virginia Beach, VA jeendicott@msn.com
"I want to be Stereotyped....I want to be Classified." Posts: 681 | From: Virginia Beach, VA USA | Registered: Mar 1999
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Thanks for the kind words regarding our work. I can't express just how much I enjoyed designing and creating those pieces.
It has long been my opinion that all the craftmanship in the world could never hide a bad design, where as a good design isn't easily wrecked by craftsmanship which isn't up to snuff. Fancy machines and modern materials won't change that.
We invested in a router for a number of reasons... the primary one being was so that my designs (especially in regard to lettering) were accurately reproduced in our work. I'm passionate about lettering and have been heavily involved in signs for decades. My crew doesn't have this same experience and quite frankly it shows on some of the work we have done in the past. Tne fancy technology won't change what we do or our passion to learn and improve... only how we do produce the pieces.
The designs for our themed elements allow for a lot of interpretation by the people who help me in the shop... lettering doesn't offer that flexibility or luxury.
The router technology ensures my designs are faithfully reproduced without any variance from what I designed.... something we could never achieve before - even with patterns or using a projector.
Sadly many 'designers' don't have enough passion, education and experience about lettering and design to understand and learn the basics of good signmaking.
It was that way LONG before computers and I suspect it will never ever change.
-grampa dan
-------------------- Dan Sawatzky Imagination Corporation Yarrow, British Columbia dan@imaginationcorporation.com http://www.imaginationcorporation.com
Being a grampa is one of the the most wonderful things in the world!!! Posts: 8738 | From: Yarrow, B.C. Canada | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
...I know what ya mean. It kills me to see many well constructed signs in the SIGN MAGAZINES that have made basic and terrible LAYOUT mistakes. There is one crew that has regular articles in SIGN BIZ that generally always gets the copy mis-placed. You'd think by now, they would have gotten "clued in to" basic layout principles. Sheesh.
Their work makes it painfully obvious who has read MIKE STEVENS book and who has NOT. Like "putting the cart before the horse" so many in the trade still DO NOT know how to arrange copy or even KERN it !!! ...Sadly, way too many "pros" making signs today could care less about "quality" design and lettering.
posted
the problem is...ARTIST is missing in the business of SIGN KEYBOARD OPERATOR!!!!! otherwise know as COMPUTER GRAPHIC DESIGNERS. most of us old guys, got into this "business" because we had "the eye" or the talent to put ideas on paper with a pencil and embelish it to a degree that made it "POP" and grab your attention. the people who have none of the above should find other work or get some education in the ART end of this work. the computer has made our work a lot simpler, yes, but there are some people(wifes, nephews, cousins)who think they are artists...can now put more of their bad ideas into production!!!!!!
-------------------- joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-637-1519 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
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Stupid people will always dig their own grave. Be thankful for what you do have. In polishing the blessings God has given us so far, He shall proudly reward us with more.
Dan, I don't care what they say about you, I've enjoyed reading your uplifting posts. I encourage a lot with family and it's nice to check in here and see someone else take the reins LOL.
I love your solution to the "old ways" dilemna.
Rene,
Sorry to hijack your post. I agree with you as well!
posted
Rene - I know where you're coming from regarding the poor font choice thing.
I'd have to disagree somewhat with my buddy OP regarding technology and today's younger generation of "Computer Graphic Designers."
I know you're not painting all the young folks with the same broad brush OP.....I just wanted to say that there are many designers who are trained with software only who contribute unimaginable talent to the world we live in.
For instance....take a look back at the original Star Wars Movie....or Jurassic Park.
The Computer generated objects, animals, etc that are created these days are overwhelmingly dominated by young people - - who are breathtakingly skilled in the detail and hard work they put into their craft.
When I saw Jurassic Park's T Rex for the first time (the CG scenes) It was frighteningly realistic - and totally believable.
As far as it relates specifically to signmaking: The old-timers were the young greenhorns at one point. There are a lot of eager, hard working youngsters that will someday own the title of "skilled old-timer" someday.
I say, if you see some young person making a design faux pau.....well, take them aside, give them some skilled advice and smile knowing you helped shape their talents in a positive way.
-------------------- Todd Gill Outside The Lines Potterville, MI Posts: 7792 | From: Potterville, MI | Registered: Dec 2001
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posted
Rene, I hope I can shed some light on this since I gave a hand in the making of this sign. The author of the Signcraft article, Rick Dolphens, was sub-contracted by Parker signs to design and construct JUST monument structure. Rick decided to do a step by step article because it involved a couple of different materials and systems (hardcoat system from Volatile Free, and Parex EIFS) to achieve this unique structure to look like limestone and slate. I had not seen the sign completed until I got my recent Signcraft and I too was suprised to see the finished sign. So I called John Jr. Parker of Parker signs (who was the main contractor of the sign and did the letters) and asked him "what's up with the squished Brush script?"(I know John well enough to say this without him coming up here to kick my a**) His voice cringed and said "I wish Rick would have said that WE DID NOT DESIGN THIS!" in the article. The customer supplied the logo and was quite insistent that it be used. John said they tried to offer better designs but were denied, so what do you do? Now you know the rest of the story. Here's what you need to do...do John Parker a favor and take a black sharpie and just block those polished aluminum letters out and look at the monument structure because that's really what the intent of the article is about.
-------------------- Dave Correll Posts: 283 | From: Faribault, MN | Registered: Jan 1999
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posted
I love brush script...I do script with my brushes every day! But this Brush Script font is the worst I ever seen, we should submit that they change the name of it!
Seriously next time it should be mentionned that the poor layout, or logo was provided by the customer because it gives a bad reputation to the guy who makes the sign and wrote the article and I agree with Dave; the fabrication is outstanding.
It would also have been easy to change the lettering on the pictures with Photoshop and in this case I would'nt consider it cheating.
By the way why not mention it in the next issue of Signcraft.
-------------------- Pierre Tardif P. Tardif Inc. 1006 boul. PIE-XI sud Val-Belair QC. Canada G3K 1L2 418-847-4089 pierre@ptardif.com Posts: 800 | From: Quebec city | Registered: Aug 2002
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posted
Welcome to the reality of our line of work these days.
Despite having knowledge, experience and design skills, there's more and more people out there who will demand that their idea of what has to be is the ONLY idea. What so many of them don't realise is that designing a sign is not the same as doing a letterhead or business card. A different set of rules apply with readablity from a distance, color contrast, design elements and how they fit the area given to work in, and anumber of other factors.
It can be difficult to when you hear a critique of a job that you knew had so much more potential, but was somehow cut short because someone who doesn't understand the sign biz won't or cannot budge on certain things.
It's not always the person you are dealing with that makes these decisions. Friends, family members and bosses higher up the food chain will share input and influence the outcome on design...not because they are knowlegable, but simply because they can.
Anyone remember the days when a customer asked "Can you design a sign for me?" instead of "I need this." Rapid
-------------------- Ray Rheaume Rapidfire Design 543 Brushwood Road North Haverhill, NH 03774 rapidfiredesign@hotmail.com 603-787-6803
I like my paint shaken, not stirred. Posts: 5648 | From: North Haverhill, New Hampshire | Registered: Apr 2003
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posted
At first I promised myself that I would not respond to this thread....but I lied.
As some others have said, we are not always in control of every aspect of the design process. "MY WAY" is not always appreciated by everyone else. Most of my work leaves room for improvement. When some of my signs have been posted here there have been some very good critiques of how they could have been improved...and I have agreed in most cases. Rarely am I completely satisfied with anything I do.
Over the years I have seen examples of work from most who have posted on this thread - some I consider very good and some I believe still have room for improvement. With a very critical eye I could find areas that are wrong with just about every layout, just as you could with mine.
And it has nothing to do with computers or plotters or printers. Good design comes from the mind of the designer....so does bad design. Today, you can certainly get into the business with a credit card, but fifty years ago you could get into the business much more cheaply - with a brush, a yardstick, and a can of paint.
Those of us who claim tenure in this business have no place in being critical of others who are just beginning. We all begin in the same place and make the same mistakes. The sad thing is that some who have been in the business for decades have not improved all that much, or desire to. It is very easy to say that since I have been doing this for X number of years that what I am doing is right. Not necessarily.
Practice does not make perfect. Improved practice makes perfect.
Before you start tearing someone else apart, hand YOUR work to Gary Anderson (or Noel, or Dan, or whoever) and let him point out the good parts and the rotten ones.
Just as a matter of opinion...I don't like Brush Script either.
-------------------- Chapman Sign Studio Temple, Texas chapmanstudio@sbcglobal.net Posts: 6306 | From: Temple, Texas, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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quote:Those of us who claim tenure in this business have no place in being critical of others who are just beginning. We all begin in the same place and make the same mistakes. The sad thing is that some who have been in the business for decades have not improved all that much, or desire to. It is very easy to say that since I have been doing this for X number of years that what I am doing is right. Not necessarily.
Practice does not make perfect. Improved practice makes perfect.
Before you start tearing someone else apart, hand YOUR work to Gary Anderson (or Noel, or Dan, or whoever) and let him point out the good parts and the rotten ones.
Just as a matter of opinion...I don't like Brush Script either.
My point exactly....well said Raymond.
-------------------- Todd Gill Outside The Lines Potterville, MI Posts: 7792 | From: Potterville, MI | Registered: Dec 2001
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posted
"The sad thing is that some who have been in the business for decades have not improved all that much, or desire to." Very true Raymond, it is also found in the building trades too, for example: once a journeyman becomes a journeyman, some lay down and take it easy, presumedly, for life...let the new guy do that, is their favorite tune...seems to me to be a human trait, also found in our industry. Although in ours, their easier to spot, as they usually come on someone elses coat tails, and usually long on mouth and short on ears... I like a "good" brush script myself, but one has to be careful using it just anywhere...insert mention of Bill Boley here, he was master of brush script...
-------------------- Frank Magoo, Magoo's-Las Vegas; fmagoo@netzero.com "the only easy day was yesterday" Posts: 2365 | From: Las Vegas, Nv. | Registered: Jun 2003
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posted
When handed some lemons, make some lemonade or a lemon pudding!
Sometimes we have no choice about fonts or layouts! Be it the Architect or owners artistic wife that has "designed" it, no changes are allowed! No weeping, wailing or gnashing of teeth will budge them!
The only recourse is to charge enough to cover your pain, not sign it, and cover your name on you vehicle, when installing the monstrosity!
-------------------- Si Allen #562 La Mirada, CA. USA
(714) 521-4810
si.allen on Skype
siallen@dslextreme.com
"SignPainters do It with Longer Strokes!"
Never mess with your profile while in a drunken stupor!!!
Brushasaurus on Chat Posts: 8831 | From: La Mirada, CA, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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