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Steve & Barb Shortreed
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Fergus, ON, Canada
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» The Letterville BullBoard » Letterhead/Pinstriper Talk » wow...i might as well just pack up

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Author Topic: wow...i might as well just pack up
KARYN BUSH
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Member # 1948

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my brain cells and find a better way.

get this...(and i'm fine really)...just a bit confused at this industry.

i have a customer who i do banners for...they needed(2)8ft x 16ft digitally printed banners(i would have to do a little designing so i had to factor in a few hours) i gave them what i thought to be a very reasonable quote of $800ea.
they called today and said they could them for $350 ea!!!
hey good for them...but its too bad it makes me look like such crook when i would be losing money if i did them for that price. [I Don t Know]

anyhoo...back to work on other shyt... [Wink]

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Karyn Bush
Simply Not Ordinary, LLC
Bartlett, NH
603-383-9955
www.snosigns.com
info@snosigns.com

Posts: 3516 | From: Bartlett, NH USA | Registered: Jan 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Jon Aston
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Karyn:

I don't know about your neck of the woods, but in Toronto, you can buy grand format printed banner for about CDN$2/square foot wholesale (or $265 per banner). You would still have to be STUPID to sell them for $350 each, of course - but outsourcing that oversized stuff might get you closer to being competitive and save you ALOT of headaches.

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Jon Aston
MARKETING PARTNERS
"Strategy, Marketing and Business Development"
Tel 705-719-9209

Posts: 1724 | From: Barrie, ON, CANADA | Registered: Sep 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Jillbeans
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Member # 1912

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Were they fancy designs like you would have done, or just red Hellvetica (distorted) with a cruddy digital fade and a black outline?
Just curious.
I feel your pain!
Love....Jill

Posts: 8834 | From: Butler, PA, USA | Registered: Jan 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Tim
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Member # 1699

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Yikes!

I just checked here, 2 6'x16' printed at 600dpi to 13oz, not laminated, hemmed and grommets, is $917.61 shipped to my door from my print guy. I certainly couldnt do it!

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Tim Rieck Signs
Halfmoon Bay, BC

Posts: 736 | From: Halfmoon Bay, BC, Canada | Registered: Sep 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
KARYN BUSH
Resident


Member # 1948

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jon...i was going to outsource...but i have to mark up, figure in some design time...and the shipping isn't cheap so $350 a banner is a NO can do.

jill: i had some of the artwork but would have to incorporate their stuff in...so just typical messing around...but it needed approval yadayadayada so you know that can turn into hours.

some of the distributors must scratch their heads big time...the price for the media for us little versacamm users to print on is not what i call dirt cheap compared to the big boys with the HUGE printers. they must get this stuff practically given to them for the price they sell it.

i dunno..........

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Karyn Bush
Simply Not Ordinary, LLC
Bartlett, NH
603-383-9955
www.snosigns.com
info@snosigns.com

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Ricky Jackson
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Are they buying them off the internet? If so, maybe they can get their customers off the internet too. I buy a lot of stuff off the net, just like everyone else and I am somewhat price conscious but if it's 60% less somewhere else... it's probably too good to be true.

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Ricky Jackson
Signs Now
614 Russell Parkway
Warner Robins, GA
(478) 923-7722
signpimp50@hotmail.com

"If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants." Sir Issac Newton

Posts: 3528 | From: Warner Robins, GA | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Bob Stephens
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Don't sweat it Karyn. Customers come and go for a variety of reasons. I'm sure you're plenty busy and losing that job isnt going to break the bank.

Just do the best work you can and do your best to take care of the customers who will pay your price. I learned a long time ago not to take it personally.

I had a really good customer 6-7 years ago I did a lot of nice work for. Just like that he vanished. A year ago he came back in and has buried me with work. Apparently he learned a valuable lesson from the last guy he used.

Never forget, IOAFS...

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Bob Stephens
Skywatch Signs
Zephyrhills, FL

www.skywatchsigns.com
www.skywatchgallery.com

Posts: 2481 | From: Zephyrhills, Florida | Registered: Jun 1999  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
KARYN BUSH
Resident


Member # 1948

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just so folks know...these people are nice customers, and the girl that called felt bad telling me what they got them for. i told her i really appreciated her telling me the price and that it was ok, and that i totally understand(which i do!) hell i can't touch that price.

its funny though...i look back this month at the banners that i printed on versacamm...they came out beautifully and no one ever griped about price and i felt like i actually helped people out with their projects. and i sure in hell didn't sell those banners i printed for $6.25sqft much less $2.73 sqft! strange how people don't think twice about paying $250+ for a 3ftx8ft banner, yet.... [I Don t Know]

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Karyn Bush
Simply Not Ordinary, LLC
Bartlett, NH
603-383-9955
www.snosigns.com
info@snosigns.com

Posts: 3516 | From: Bartlett, NH USA | Registered: Jan 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Cam Bortz
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Member # 55

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[I Don t Know] Why do we here this same story over and over? People offer the same thing that thousands of other shops do, whether locally or over the net, then get upset when someone does it cheaper.

The only thing your competitors can't do cheaper is what they can't do at all. Yet time and time again, people buy the latest and greatest technology in a frantic urge to "compete", instead of investing in studying design and improving their skills (I'm not trying to pick on Karyn, lots of folks do this.) Then they discover that someone with deeper pockets, cheap labor, and a willingness to shave margins to the minimum is undercutting their prices - well, no chit Dick Tracy. It doesn't matter if they undercut you by $5 or 50%, the only way they can beat you at all is if you aren't offering your customers something they cannot do!

Reading this board, seeing posts like this again and again, convinces me that small one or two person shops cannot afford to go head to head with big companies on low-margin, technology-driven products like digital print banners. Look on E-bay - there are dozens if not hundreds of offers of inexpensive printing on banners and magnetics. Are they good quality? Probably not, but the average banner customer could care less. The customer that shops for price in the first place has already admitted that quality is not their first priority; they want it quick and cheap. The world is chockablock full of shops who are willing to be quicker and cheaper - thats a game with no winners. If you are going to play a game like that, you really have no right to complain when you lose.

I know this sounds harsh, and is probably going to get me flamed, but I'm going to tell it as I see it.

--------------------
"A wise man concerns himself with the truth, not with what people believe." - Aristotle


Cam Bortz
Finest Kind Signs
Pondside Iron works
256 S. Broad St.
Pawcatuck, Ct. 06379
"Award winning Signs since 1988"

Posts: 3051 | From: Pawcatuck,Connecticut USA | Registered: Nov 1998  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Raymond Chapman
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The only thing I have for sale is design. We all basically use the same equipment and software. There is no way that I can compete on price...someone will always be willing to do it cheaper.

There are a lot of jobs that I lose because my competitors simply will do it for less and make less than I am willing to make.

But some of the jobs we have in the shop right now are the result of no one in the area being willing to learn the process or invest the time it takes to do dimensional work, or gold leaf, or glass etching, or any number of other specialized procedures.

I may not be able to compete with you on price, but I'll certainly give you a run for your money when it comes to design. Some of our jobs were acquired because we just made them look better than what the competition does. Do we get all those good looking jobs? Not hardly, but we get our fair share.

This morning I received the go-ahead on a $14,000 interior graphics job and the only material I will use is paint (and some paper for patterns). No one else felt confident enough to do hand lettering or the simple artwork that was involved. Hey, it will be inside this summer when the temperatures outside are always around 100. Sounds like a good deal to me.

Please don't hear me wrong - I'm not saying that folks in my area don't do good work...they do (some a lot better than me), but there are certain areas that others simply don't want to touch. That is where I will compete

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Chapman Sign Studio
Temple, Texas
chapmanstudio@sbcglobal.net

Posts: 6306 | From: Temple, Texas, USA | Registered: Nov 1998  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Jillbeans
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Member # 1912

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I hear you Raymond!
Last night I got a rush job, did it in an hour too, $125.
All because I can PAINT.
And Cam, I hear you too, but there is always something in me (being the little guy) that wants to take on those big guns!
Altho I hope I am also smart enough to walk away rather than work for free.
Love....Jill

Posts: 8834 | From: Butler, PA, USA | Registered: Jan 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
KARYN BUSH
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Member # 1948

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quote:
The world is chockablock full of shops who are willing to be quicker and cheaper - thats a game with no winners. If you are going to play a game like that, you really have no right to complain when you lose.
well cam...i don't believe i play that game but hey you're entitle to your own opinion.

do i like staying up on technology...you betcha! and when it becomes unbearable then i'll be knee deep into something else...but until then...here i am. [Razz] [Wink]

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Karyn Bush
Simply Not Ordinary, LLC
Bartlett, NH
603-383-9955
www.snosigns.com
info@snosigns.com

Posts: 3516 | From: Bartlett, NH USA | Registered: Jan 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Dave Draper
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We can get them for $1.25 per square foot, but the resolution is only 72 dpi. OK for a bill board but not for very close viewing...but then a banner 8 x 16 ft is not ment to be viewed up close.

So we can get the banners for $160 each, right here in Bloomington, less than one mile from my shop and these guys will sell to anybody...don't matter to them!

At $350 per banner x 2 = $700 customer cost.
My cost would be $320.00

I could make $380.00 for less than 1 hour layout and file prep for the large banner printers.

$380 per hour is not bad money. I would like 2 of those jobs every day!

Maybe you all should update your thinking and where you can get stuff for your customer.

If you can make good money and save your customer some money, then its a win-win situation. This is a business. Not every sign we make is covered with glitter and gold. This is just bread and butter wheeling and dealing...not an art form, not a master piece, not a contest entry.

But you can let it slip right through your fingers if you want. Its your business. [Smile]

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Draper The Signmaker / Monumental Designs
http://www.monumentaldesigns.com

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Tim Whitcher
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Wow, Dave, and I was just admonished in another post for not charging at least 4 times my material costs! Go figure. Not that I'm saying you're giving anything away.
I'm finding out that you can only charge what the customer is willing to pay. That comes down to the customer's perceived worth of my work, nothing else. Why else will they pay $25.00 for a 18 x 24 single sided, one color on white, coroplast sign that takes 2.00 bucks in materials and 15 minutes to make, and $90.00 for the same thing in .063 aluminum, with the material cost of $18.00?? I'll sell the aluminum signs all day. I know this topic has been debated to death, but it all comes down to value, which is based on many factors, two of those being the worth to the customer and what the other guy charges!

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Tim Whitcher
Adrian, MI

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Jillbeans
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Tim you are 100% right on in my book.
(altho I still feel Karyn's pain)
Love....Jill

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Dave Draper
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Tim...

The difference in a large format printed banner and making an HDU carved sign is like the difference between day and night.

Banners are cheep, fade quickly, rip apart, and are reguarded as quick temporary advertising.

On the other hand, a well built sign that will last 15 years and is well designed and pleasing to the eye has more value. The difficulty and skill levels to produce this type of sign is much greater and few who can do it. The better customers will pay out the nose for these signs.

But....if you just want to make money, then sell 8x16 foot $350 banners all day long and you will make great money for very little work.

The key is flexibility. Know when to hold 'em, know when to fold 'em...know when to run. :0

--------------------
Draper The Signmaker / Monumental Designs
http://www.monumentaldesigns.com

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Tim Whitcher
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Dave, I whole-heartedly agree. It comes down to the worth of the product to the customer.

--------------------
Tim Whitcher
Adrian, MI

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Jillbeans
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Around these parts (where in my township banners are illegal) even if someone did buy a banner from me, they would bitch if it didn't last 2 years outside.
I have corosigns out there that are 3 years old or better.
Most people are just plain cheap.
They'd surely raise hell if a digi print faded.
I had a guy wanting me to re-do his pickup cuz his stickers only lasted 6 years.
Love....Jill

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Dave Draper
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Jill,

Because, in our area, anyone can walk into the large banner printers and get it cheap, they don't care if it lasts 6 months...they can buy another one after it fades away or rips, and use the old banner for a garage floor covering, or place it in the crawl space under a house.

By the way, these printers give me their end roll scraps.

To them a scrap piece of billboard banner material is 5 foot by 16 foot....that is how much lead is required before the actual print starts. To them, this "scrap" is totally worthless. To me and you it would make a very nice banner and some good money.

Perception is really funny when it comes to worth of something.

And...just to let you know...they would love your business. I can't give out thier names here because of the rules.

If Karyn and some of you other would like their info, e-mail me. (Make your own deals with them.)

When Steve and Barb were here in Bloomington a year or so ago visiting us, we took them over to the large format banner printers and Aaron told Steve at that time they were printing billboards for $1.00 per sq ft!

It takes the wind out of your sails when you know how cheaply these can be made.

Or, you can use it to your advantage and make some quick money.

--------------------
Draper The Signmaker / Monumental Designs
http://www.monumentaldesigns.com

Posts: 2883 | From: Bloomington Illinois USA | Registered: Nov 1998  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
   

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