posted
i am sooo done with this stupid sign business!!!!!!!!!!!!! this just put me over the edge. i installed this routed hdu sign (57"x57")a few weeks ago...mind you i took my sweet time doing it...the paint had plenty of time to cure...porter pro100 semi gloss. i used signfoam 18lb..used pb primer...was careful to let things dry before recoating and was deligent about vacuuming, blowing and wet cloth then tac cloth so no dust between primer and paint...then wait 12 hours to paint. wtf happened here??? any clues??? obviously since i used all waterbased products and it blistered there must have been moisture trapped? i don't understand this wonderful porter paint turning all streaky and stained looking. the signs back faces the sun all day and front is pretty much out of the sun. so obviously the back of the sign gets heated up(not like its been real warm the last 2 weeks though) so now i get to redo this fkin sign..on my dime of course. all i can say is i'm done with this routed shyt...too much that goes wrong even when you try to do everything right! i'm sick and tired of paying money to work...it shouldn't be this way!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
[ December 28, 2005, 11:12 AM: Message edited by: KARYN BUSH ]
-------------------- Karyn Bush Simply Not Ordinary, LLC Bartlett, NH 603-383-9955 www.snosigns.com info@snosigns.com Posts: 3516 | From: Bartlett, NH USA | Registered: Jan 2001
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posted
Ouch! And you bought a whole passle of those Porter Paints too. Is the streaking just wet paint? Sometimes latex will look different when it is wet, I'm thinking that those water streaks may dry off. On the other hand, those blisters aren't going away. I feel for you girl!
-------------------- “Did you ever stop to think, and forget to start again?” -Winnie the Pooh & A.A. Milne
Kelly Thorson Kel-T-Grafix 801 Main St. Holdfast, SK S0G 2H0 ktg@sasktel.net Posts: 5496 | From: Penzance, Saskatchewan | Registered: May 2002
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posted
Ugh. Having never really used Latex on HDU, I can't say what happened....I love that PB primer too. It has to be a heating issue, IMO....is the sign a dark color? Maybe the air outside is too cold? Condensation somewhere in the layers? I wish I could come up and help you Karyn. Love....Jill (I have a dark blue sign on SignFoam, almost 10 years old, primed with regular latex primer & finished with 1-S, still looks fine and gets direct morning sun...maybe I was just lucky)
Posts: 8834 | From: Butler, PA, USA | Registered: Jan 2001
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posted
I've seen mine water-streak, or spot but, like Kelly says, they disappear after the water dries.
About the blisters....Did you by chance move the sign from a cold or cool environment into a warm room not long before topcoating? Anything like that? That will cause condensation on the surface which could be trapped under the topcoat.
[ December 28, 2005, 11:36 AM: Message edited by: Wayne Webb ]
-------------------- Wayne Webb Webb Signworks Chipley, FL 850.638.9329 wayne@webbsignworks.com Posts: 7403 | From: Chipley,Florida,United States | Registered: Oct 1999
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posted
nope all the work was done in a climate control environment...temps may go up or down 5 degrees maybe. of course it went from a warm place to a really cold place...but that what signs are suppose to do...or so i thought! lol!
so since this is signfoam...would you carefully sand the paint off or use like a zip strip??? i doubt i'll do anything til spring, they will absolutely freak if i take this thing down now...not looking forward to making the call.
-------------------- Karyn Bush Simply Not Ordinary, LLC Bartlett, NH 603-383-9955 www.snosigns.com info@snosigns.com Posts: 3516 | From: Bartlett, NH USA | Registered: Jan 2001
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I had a HDU failure similar to yours using Porter paint. It was a deep burgandy color and it never cured. All of the lettering was gold leaf and two weeks later when the first rain came, the gold washed off of the sign. The paint had a tacky feel to it weeks later and it just would not dry. I had to strip the entire sign down and repainted it with automotive urethanes. I've never had problems using two part paint systems but have run into problems using latex.
I know how you feel girl. I was sick to my stomach to having to eat that job. Working for nothing really stings my ass.
-------------------- Bob Stephens Skywatch Signs Zephyrhills, FL
posted
My Brother says......... (I remember when I used to tell him he didn't know anything and never would!!) Now he knows all the schtuff. Oof! And he's YOUNGER than me! ANYway, he says that if the Porter paint felt perfectly cured after 24, 48 or 72 hours it STILL may not have been cured. I mean not cured all the way to the bottom. He says that particular kind of primer needs 24 hour minimum for a full cure too. If the primer wasn't completely cured then what happened to you is what usually happens with that paint. He only uses Columbia Aqualock primer. He uses lots of latex paints on Precision Board here, but only Columbia premium 20 year paint. We've never had that problem.
posted
Just asking another question.... Was the paint(in the can) ever exposed to freezing temperatures for any length of time? Freezing can ruin latex paint. We bring all of our waterbased stuff inside the heated area during winter.
Another thing...latex may feel dry and look dry, but can take as much as a month to cure completely.
-------------------- Wayne Webb Webb Signworks Chipley, FL 850.638.9329 wayne@webbsignworks.com Posts: 7403 | From: Chipley,Florida,United States | Registered: Oct 1999
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posted
Hi Karyn, this is the reason I NEVER use Latex paint! I guess I'm from the "old school". I have found an Automotive Primer that is fantastic on HDU (posted it earlier). I us Automotive paint on the HDU and have never had a problem. Your picrures do not show on my page. All I can say is, how long does paint last on a car? Why not use that. Take a deep breath, you will be OK! Email me and I will send you the info on the "stuff" I use.
-------------------- Tony Vickio The World Famous Vickio Signs 3364 Rt.329 Watkins Glen, NY 14891 t30v@vickiosigns.com 607-535-6241 http://www.vickiosigns.com Posts: 1063 | From: Watkins Glen, New York | Registered: Sep 2001
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posted
It's definately a latex "curing" problem Karyn. Caused by a change in temperature and humidity.
Latex can take an extremely long time to cure especially in low temperatures and high humidity. It will in fact absorb moisture even when the surface appears hardened.
Case in fact: I sprayed a 100ft x 15ft corrugated iron wall with Latex once and pushed the limits of curing time before a cold damp (misty rain) night. Next morning it had so many blisters it looked like a toad's back! The surface was dry but the blisters were full of water! And the condensation had left streaks like a zebra's back! Arrrrrgh!
But, believe it or not, after a long hot day, they had all disappeared including the streaks!!!!
It may be too late for you to apply a heat gun to the sign, but worth a try. Just don't blister the blisters
PS: VERY nice sign. Can I enter it in SOTM for you?
[ December 28, 2005, 04:33 PM: Message edited by: Jon Butterworth ]
posted
thanks for the replies folks! i think my tear glands have dried up for the day...but i'm willing to bet i'll be crying a river tomorrow since i didn't get shyt done today!
jake...i would do that except the blisters are ice chunks...its suppose to rain tomorrow so maybe i'll be a glutton for punishment and go over there and do that...and ya know, fix that ribbon so no one else does...don't want anyone to get too close to that acne infested sign!
sure jon you can enter it in SOTM...maybe i'll get sympathy votes...lol!
[ December 28, 2005, 04:45 PM: Message edited by: KARYN BUSH ]
-------------------- Karyn Bush Simply Not Ordinary, LLC Bartlett, NH 603-383-9955 www.snosigns.com info@snosigns.com Posts: 3516 | From: Bartlett, NH USA | Registered: Jan 2001
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posted
The foam may have been damp when primer was applied, trapping moisture UNDER the primercoat? That's my best guess, not having seen your pix yet. Did you hose off hdu before priming? Perhaps there wasn't enough dry time after that step??
If it's any reassurance, I've only had that prob. once, and it happened under gold leaf, that had a black bkgd, and blisters(small) were on the sunny side, in the lettering. I attributed it to high temps, and the oil base size with the leaf making the area that blistered unable to "vent". I still don't know for sure where that moisture came from though...but my guess is that it was in the hdu somehow.
I use latex on hdu with fsc88 primer and no problems like you are describing.And I have alot of hdu out there now, so I guess I have developed a degree of confidence in the the process....I hope you figure out what happened to your sign, Karen, as I can feel your pain all the way down here !
-------------------- Jeff Ogden 8727 NE 68 Terr. Gainesville FL, 32609 Posts: 2138 | From: 8827 NE 68 Terr Gainesville Fl 32609 | Registered: Aug 2002
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posted
Just my humble observation but I noticed that you mentioned....
quote: was deligent about vacuuming, blowing and wet cloth then tac cloth so no dust between primer and paint...
In 25 years of automotive spraying I have never heard of anyone using a "damp" cloth.
Just blow while wiping with a clean dry cloth and then tac rag the surface.
Damp "anything" is a no no when prepping a surface for painting. Sanded primer is porous, whether it is latex or oil based and it will absorb any moisture into it's pores. Also, a damp rag will turn dust into crud which will also remain in the pores of the primer.
Even if the rag were dampened with something other than water, like wax and silicone removers, it should be done before any primer is applied.
I don't know if this has anything to do with your situation here but please keep it in mind for future jobs.
-------------------- Dave Grundy retired in Chelem,Yucatan,Mexico/Hensall,Ontario,Canada 1-519-262-3651 Canada 011-52-1-999-102-2923 Mexico cell 1-226-785-8957 Canada/Mexico home
posted
Karen, I'm very sorry about your problem. Things like this can really burn you up, especially after all the time it takes to do this work. I didn't notice anyone ask, but are the blisters all the way down to the HDU, or just between the primer and topcoat? Also, I'm not familiar with PB primer. Latex or oil base? Foam is not supposed to absorb anything....supposedly. But it's not without its problems. Someone earlier suggested you contact Porter techs. I'd go there first.
-------------------- Dale Feicke Grafix 714 East St. Mendenhall, MS 39114
"I can do all things through Christ, who strengthens me." Posts: 2963 | From: Mendenhall, MS | Registered: Apr 1999
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posted
Karen If you are using thick coats of paint, it will take much longer to dry as using thin coats of paint. Diffusing water or solvents out of a paint layer follows a cube law. If you double the paint thickness you will require 8 times the dry time!
We tried the PB waterbase primer from and BM latex paint exactly 1 time. We had the exact same result you did but it was a hot humid summer a few years ago. I now know that the primer was applied too thick, and so was the housepaint. That sign never did dry, what a mess.
Also if you are using a kerosene heater or a salamander heater, it will leave hydrocarbons in the air that will coat your sign, messing up adhesion.
We used to use Mar-Hyde 2 part auto primer with 2-3 thin coats of One shot. NO failures. Because of the fumes, we switched to the sign foam primer (2-3 thin coats) No failures. Use thin coats!
I'm very sorry to hear of your paint failure problems. All of us feel that kind of pain. I wish I could view the photo's. They won't open for me either.
I'm interested to learn where the failure occured. Is the problem, as Dale questioned, at the surface - primer layer.? Has the PB Primer stuck on the HDU?
My experience with PB Primer has been very good. Even if the HDU is wet, the primer would stick just fine. Moisture, humidity, temp, and such, in my opinior aren't much of a consideration. I'd bet the paint isn't an issue either.
I really out on a limb here but I'd bet it's dust in the pores of the HDU. There is a chance of removing the paint without too much trouble if my hunch is right. You should be able to take the sign to the car wash, and under high pressure, the paint should lift rather easily. Some sanding my be necessary.
-------------------- Joe Crumley Norman Sign Company 2200 Research Park Blvd. Norman, OK 73069 Posts: 1428 | From: 2200 Research Park Blvd. | Registered: Sep 2001
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quote:Originally posted by KARYN BUSH: i used signfoam 18lb..
Joe, The old Signfoam, Signfoam I and II, were hard to get the dust off. Not so with the new stuff. It blows off easily as does Everwood. I used to have to wash the signfoam II with a strong stream of water, to clean out the pores, and then let dry. Never had any failures using that method. But I've also had no failures with simply blowing off the Everwood and Signfoam III with air.
I'm thinking the paint or primer wasn't dry or some other factor, causing outgassing, is involved. I would think it takes a gas of some kind to make a bubble, not dust. If it were dust, wouldn't the paint be coming off in irregular patches instead of bubbles?
-------------------- Wayne Webb Webb Signworks Chipley, FL 850.638.9329 wayne@webbsignworks.com Posts: 7403 | From: Chipley,Florida,United States | Registered: Oct 1999
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posted
That sucks! Usually a blistering situation is caused by trapped moisture seeking a way out. It doesn't sound to me like you did anything wrong or used the wrong paint system. It sounds like a freaky temperature moisture mismatch of some sort caused by sign devils sent to earth to aggravate the s@#t out of us.
Rather than hear about another paint system, etc. If the job was mine, I would try popping the biggest blisters and rolling over them with a rubber brayer. They may go down and go away as if by magic.
The reason I say this is if you paint over old wallpaper it will blister, but when given a chance to dry out the blisters disappear. Even vinyl bubbles will disappear when the film shrinks out if they're small enough.
I'd get rid of the big bubbles and wait and see what happens come spring. Everything may turn out just fine and you'll have a great story to tell at future meets. I've seen some strange stuff happen before. Also don't let your latex paints freeze, they may go bad, but in this case I don't think that's the culprit, I think it's them danged ole sign devils messin' with your mind.
It could be a dust thing, I guess, but I would think that the dust would mix in with the paint. I mean they mix a perlite/sand mixture in with paint all the time. Since the sign is new and it's cold up there and probably moist, you may be just fine and dandy. It's worth a try. Pop some bubbles and have a good day -- I say!
[ December 29, 2005, 06:10 AM: Message edited by: Bill Diaz ]
-------------------- Bill Diaz Diaz Sign Art Pontiac IL www.diazsignart.com Posts: 2107 | From: Pontiac, IL | Registered: Dec 2001
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I'm not sure about ougassing. I'm not sure acrylic latex produces gas as distilate paints do. It seems to me latex based paints have open pours which allows breathing.
Now that I've been able to view the photo's, It looks like a down deep adhesion problem. I've had the same problem during the heat of the summer, when I applied too much dark green paint in a single layer. The surface paint dried before it could soak into the primer.
Anyway, what do I know? It could be bad JuJu.
J.
-------------------- Joe Crumley Norman Sign Company 2200 Research Park Blvd. Norman, OK 73069 Posts: 1428 | From: 2200 Research Park Blvd. | Registered: Sep 2001
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posted
Hi Karyn, I finally was able to see your pictures this morning and if it's any consolation.....That is a "beautiful" sign!!!
-------------------- Tony Vickio The World Famous Vickio Signs 3364 Rt.329 Watkins Glen, NY 14891 t30v@vickiosigns.com 607-535-6241 http://www.vickiosigns.com Posts: 1063 | From: Watkins Glen, New York | Registered: Sep 2001
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posted
hey folks thanks for all the replies...here's more details...its signfoam3, after routing i blasted that thing with air to take every partical of dust off..then i vacuum it...then i take a damp clothe and wipe it...i wait 12 hours...then took more compressed air blasted again and then the dry tac clothe...trust me i am total mental about this due to my lovely big routed sign last year when my helper didn't do as i asked and the paint peeled off with the mask after i routed it. i put my layers on thin as i know that thin layers are much better than thick. this sign was done in the fall and sat finished for over a month(well except for epoxying it together and painting details on the trees and ugly birds.) there was no humidity and temp were controlled.
i will eventually go back up there and pop a bubble(when they are not ice chunks)and see which layer was the culprit.
i'm hoping i will be able to use zip strip on the brown part to take off this paint...i can't imagine i'd be able to sand it off...i'm going to test a piece of foam to see if the paint stripper will eat the hdu...hopefully it won't cause i really don't want to refabricate this sign. i'm sure there must be some water based product that will work for me...right??? lol!
who knows this could be a sign....telling me to concentrate on a different aspect of my business...like start a different business. the universe is obviously trying desparate to send me a message regarding this stuff...since i've had problems with just about everything i touch. i have no desire at all to do anymore of these bigger signs between granite posts...too much stress and i can't afford to lose anymore money or sleep over this shyt. its interior signage for this chicky now! i have 3 more routed outdoor projects that i may or may not go thru with. one is one sided(4x8)and smalted so i will go back to my signfoam primer and one shot for that. the other 2 are more complicated so i don't know if my nerves can handle it. anyhoo...thanks for the support!!! i do appreciate it!!!
-------------------- Karyn Bush Simply Not Ordinary, LLC Bartlett, NH 603-383-9955 www.snosigns.com info@snosigns.com Posts: 3516 | From: Bartlett, NH USA | Registered: Jan 2001
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posted
After finally being able to see the pictures (nice sign Karyn) I blame the SNOW sitting on the sign! The back heats up enough to melt the snow, and the moisture is causing the blisters in the Latex! (That's my theory anyway) Love....Jill
Posts: 8834 | From: Butler, PA, USA | Registered: Jan 2001
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posted
Here is my .02 cents. I've had this problem happen once before on a small sign. Being that the blisters are happening on the first or original SignFoam surface that wasn't routed or planed down, it could be contamination from a number of sources, one can only imagine the possibilities from the time of manufacture to delivery to your shop. Here in south Louisiana, oily and sweaty hands are a source, especially in the summer months. I always wash my signs before painting, and since my similar problem to yours, I now wash with simple green and water with no problems at all. My remedy was to remake the sign, it was small and simple enough to justify. I know it's hard to not get disgusted, your sign/s are awesome, hang in there.
posted
Karyn, years ago a friend of mine had his vette painted, and after a short while, it bubbled up horribly. Turned out it was an adhesion problem between the primer and paint. the primer was still intact on the surface, but the paint lifted up. Ive been using porter for five years now, and havent had this happen. I use a high quality latex primer underneath. Hope you find out what caused it and sincerely hope its an easy fix.
-------------------- Maker of fine signs and other creative stuff. Located at 109 N. Cumberland ave. Harlan, Ky. 40831 606-837-0242 Posts: 4172 | From: Ages-Brookside, Ky. Up the Holler... | Registered: Jul 1999
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posted
If the primer is lifted, maybe contamination like Bryan said. After priming I usually wait 48 hours before painting the finishing coats as I was told by a paint manufacturer, primer must be well cured or blisters could appear. I also wait 48 hours between each coat of primer. I hope you can settle this problem without a total repaint.Good luck...
-------------------- Enseignes Le Héron Sainte-Adèle, Qué Posts: 103 | From: Sainte-Adèle | Registered: Dec 2002
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posted
My Brother just said something. IF its a smooth surface he always uses Scotch Brite pads on the cured primer before he puts on the paint. If its a rough surface he doesn't.
And Rosemary said something that I hadn't thought about. Karyn, you DO sand between every coat of primer and topcoat don't you?
(I know that you might be insulted by the question, but it is just something you didn't mention)
[ December 29, 2005, 07:50 PM: Message edited by: Dave Grundy ]
-------------------- Dave Grundy retired in Chelem,Yucatan,Mexico/Hensall,Ontario,Canada 1-519-262-3651 Canada 011-52-1-999-102-2923 Mexico cell 1-226-785-8957 Canada/Mexico home
I saw in your post you used epoxy in your sign. i think this might be the culprit. I had a HDU sign bubble on me and it was were i used bondo and epoxy...laytex paint does not stick to the bondo or epoxy...i had to remove the paint(in was real easy it just pealed right off , re-prime with oil primer in that location and then repaint with laytex.
(i know this is after the fact)the best adhesives is the urathane glues(High Density Urathane)Gorilla and there are some that come in tubes like caulking (PL brand construction adhesive). also elastromeric caulking is a great filler.
[ December 29, 2005, 08:49 PM: Message edited by: Chris Lovelady ]
-------------------- "We have been making house calls since 1992"
Chris Lovelady Vital Signs
NOW WITH 2 LOCATIONS! Tallahassee, Florida Thomasville, Ga.
posted
with the pb primer you don't sand between coats...do thin coats with air on them while drying so they dry even and sand before top coat. (because of the molacular structure.)
and no my air compressor has a moisture trap...but i guess anything could have happened.
i did laminate them together with west systems but i don't see how that would matter since i didn't use epoxy on the face...plus the blue part which is hogged out is fine...its just that whole brown part thats bad. i hope its just a strip and repaint and not a whole fabrication redo...that would suck.
thanks again folks! i'm just taking these continued mishaps as a push in another direction...i'll figure it out someday.
[ December 29, 2005, 08:52 PM: Message edited by: KARYN BUSH ]
-------------------- Karyn Bush Simply Not Ordinary, LLC Bartlett, NH 603-383-9955 www.snosigns.com info@snosigns.com Posts: 3516 | From: Bartlett, NH USA | Registered: Jan 2001
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posted
Bubbeling can be a result of a number of problems, heres one; OUTGASSING, I have seen folks use too strong a solvent on some substrates(to clean with)as a result the solvent soaks into the (plastic, fiberglass, any porous material) only to try and escape hours or days later,bubbeling the paint (primer and top coats).
Be carefull what you clean with, and allow plenty of time for it to outgass before priming or painting over them.
Roger
-------------------- Roger Bailey Rapid Tac Incorporated 186 Combs Dr. Merlin Oregon 97532 Posts: 3020 | From: Merlin Oregon | Registered: Dec 1998
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If memory serves, you had a similar problem a couple of years ago with a wooden sign that blistered in much the same way (and it was a dark brown color then as well). Just wondering if it was the same kind of paint in both cases...
Rapid
-------------------- Ray Rheaume Rapidfire Design 543 Brushwood Road North Haverhill, NH 03774 rapidfiredesign@hotmail.com 603-787-6803
I like my paint shaken, not stirred. Posts: 5648 | From: North Haverhill, New Hampshire | Registered: Apr 2003
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posted
no rapid it wasn't the same paint but you are right, its that same shyt color brown..lol! actually that was old wood planks that i stripped...they must have been 2" thick. even though it sat under a tarp for a month to dry from the winter i was told by some ol timers that it is possible for ice crytals to stay deep in the core of the wood for months...that one i accepted as moisture trapped in the wood. hence the reason i will never do a repaint on old signs...now i'm pretty much done with this big stuff...its just not my cup of tea...i think i stress out too easily and freak out when stuff like this happens. besides i'm gettin too old for this heavy lifting shyt. i work alone and when you are always moving 4x8s by yourself and almost killing yourself in the process a gal has to say to herself..."self wtf are you trying to proof?? now go print some stickas on your versacamm."
-------------------- Karyn Bush Simply Not Ordinary, LLC Bartlett, NH 603-383-9955 www.snosigns.com info@snosigns.com Posts: 3516 | From: Bartlett, NH USA | Registered: Jan 2001
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You've got a great design going on here! The sign looks bitchen'.Not sure if anybody mentioned it, but with the HDU the paint will only cure from the top. If it was wood, it'd cure down into itself on both sides.
Let us know what ya find. Fricken Killer Sign! Just need to get past this paint issue.
-------------------- Mark Neurohr "Ernest" Paintin' Place 141 Sunnyside Road Kittanning, PA 16201
Now that the holidays are over, I got a chance to speak to the rep at our local Porter paint store here. According to his take on the situation, it could have been the color mix itself. Porter and other companies carry "stock" colors that are made in mass quantities and the mixing is more consistant that way for each color. When a custom color is mixed, there can be some degree of variation from store to store and the consistancy can vary. One of the variations is pigment content. If there is more pigment than should be, it can cause the same kind of streaking of the color that you show in the pictures above from the weather conditions...the tell tale snow/ice on the top of the sign.
My guy Adam down here at the Porter store is going to do a little research on this one about the blistering problem. (Adam was at the first Mass Mayhem meet and is looking forward to joining in on this topic and others here in the near future.)
Rapid
-------------------- Ray Rheaume Rapidfire Design 543 Brushwood Road North Haverhill, NH 03774 rapidfiredesign@hotmail.com 603-787-6803
I like my paint shaken, not stirred. Posts: 5648 | From: North Haverhill, New Hampshire | Registered: Apr 2003
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(I remember when I used to tell him he didn't know anything and never would!!) ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
Now he knows all the schtuff. Oof! And he's YOUNGER than me!![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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