posted
I'm just wonderin' with all this talk about quicky sticky this or that....is the pervasive thinking actually still that "true talent" and being a tech based shop are mutually exclusive?
Don't get me wrong..I started out slinging a brush nearly 20 years ago....but I wouldn't go back to it full time for anything. for me, It just didn't fit.
Granted, that disqualifies me and others from being a "certain type" of letterhead, but does that also in the minds of some make tech based artists "second string"?
[ August 19, 2005, 02:12 PM: Message edited by: Barry Branscum ]
sometimes it pays to have struggled without fancy new tools.
I barely had that luxury. I'm proud of our shop's acquisition of these newer tools to allow us to be more efficient.
Even with a 4 yr. degree in graphic design (okay so it took me 5) I'm learing all the time: The greece letterhead meet truly opened my eyes to some nuances in design/color that I hadn't focused on enough in the past.
I think there are times when "Vynull" is used as a curse word. For me I'm a signmaker, I don't give a damn if someone thinks I'm a letterhead, artist, computer user or what.
GOOD POST....like to see others rants.
I'm as guilty as the next guy at cursing the vinyl...for me it's just meant that a lot of times the technology has allowed less quality work to go out the door of, probably all our shops.
-------------------- Matthew Rolli AdCraft Sign&Design Hudson, WI Posts: 280 | From: Hudson, WI | Registered: Aug 2003
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YOU JUST LOVE BEIN A LIGHTNING ROD ..DONTCHA?hahahahahahahahaahah you do have a TALENT for that.....hahahahahahahaahahaha
-------------------- joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-637-1519 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
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Barry, I don't think it's as much about being "real talent" as being a "keeper of the craft" and keeping the focus on traditional methods. The letterheads are a loosely formed (if "formed" at all) but I think the spirit of the heads is in the tradion of keeping the craft alive. Most anybody can set import a nice shape, give it a nice trick fill and edge, pop in the copy and click the bevel filter then give it a quick shadow filter and output it but that's just not the same as doing it by hand. Personally, I'd rather have a single hand painted "R" by Billy Picket or a hundred others than a fussed over design digitally output. Just my 2 pesos worth.
-------------------- Ricky Jackson Signs Now 614 Russell Parkway Warner Robins, GA (478) 923-7722 signpimp50@hotmail.com
"If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants." Sir Issac Newton Posts: 3528 | From: Warner Robins, GA | Registered: Oct 2004
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If everyone could use a brush, paint, carve, gild, etc. these people would STILL complain because then they would no longer have a niche market with everyone slashing each other's prices to get work.
Yeah I do vinyl. Sometimes I get a little bored with it but then I start some new designs, which I do on paper with pencil simply because it's faster for me, and any stagnate feelings go away.
To me, vinyl is just how I pay my bills. Sure, I can paint, carve, airbrush, still practicing my striping, want to try some gilding.. but that's all the fun stuff and vinyl is my thing because I can crank it out, roll it up and ship it off - one phone call from a customer with a credit card, a call into a supplier, and a call for UPS pickup is all I need to conduct business. I don't *have* to drive anywhere. I don't have to inventory anything. I don't have to worry about paying a freight company to bring me MDO, HDU, aluminum, etc. I don't need permitting. I don't have to worry about working out in the killer heat.
That gives me time to do what I do best, design cool stuff and work on photography, and mess around with anything that meets my fancy at the moment.
-------------------- "If I share all my wisdom I won't have any left for myself."
Mike Pipes stickerpimp.com Lake Havasu, AZ mike@stickerpimp.com Posts: 8746 | From: Lake Havasu, AZ USA | Registered: Jun 2000
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posted
Don't be an extremist. Next thing ya know, there'll be some brush-head terrorists group bombing quicky-sticky shops.
Bro. Barry, EVERYONE appreciates a beautifully designed sign regardless of the materials involved.
What NO ONE likes is anyone who cut's-throats on prices, whether hand-lettered OR vinyl.
I'm sorry for the fact that some all-vinyl places also get covered with the blanket term 'quicky-sticky'. There's no doubt or question AT ALL that some shops doing all-vinyl and/or prints are set apart, doing some of the most awesome, outstanding, & well-designed work out there.
In the hand-painted zone, the 'quicky-sticky' version is 'Abner-crack-head' who bangs out weird brush strokes and poor spacing for a 20spot.
*As for the stereo-type 'real' 'quicky-sticky' stores, I like to think of them as an asset, a place where people can get something I really don't have time to fool with for the amount of money those customers are willing to spend. There ARE people who do not care about quality materials and cost, and there ARE places that cater to them. No biggie.
Never resent or hate the work that vividly contrasts the work you produce. If it's better than what you're doin', strive to improve. And if there's worse than what your doin', keep raisin' the bar and settin' the standard.
Help, don't hinder.
*See RED Lobster VS McDonalds analogies.
-------------------- Signs Sweet Home Alabama
oneshot on chat
"Look like a girl, act like a lady, think like a man, work like a dog" Posts: 5758 | From: "Sweet Home" Alabama | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
Nope Barry, doesnt have to be done by hand, but it has to be done with skill. A plotter in the wrong hands is like nitro. One move the wrong way, and youve got a mess.
-------------------- Maker of fine signs and other creative stuff. Located at 109 N. Cumberland ave. Harlan, Ky. 40831 606-837-0242 Posts: 4172 | From: Ages-Brookside, Ky. Up the Holler... | Registered: Jul 1999
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But we're not talking about paying the bills, just letterhead panels, LOL. BTW, you've had that tagline on there long enough.
-------------------- Ricky Jackson Signs Now 614 Russell Parkway Warner Robins, GA (478) 923-7722 signpimp50@hotmail.com
"If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants." Sir Issac Newton Posts: 3528 | From: Warner Robins, GA | Registered: Oct 2004
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Well after 30 years of being a Illustrator and Techno,Airbrush, Signwriter,Pictorial,Vinyl Master,Designer,Artist Etc!!!!!!
Today I had to do 30 seconds, 1 Minute, and 3 Minutes.... Life Drawing with a model posing...... Four hours none stop! of flipping pages and sketching.
Graphite and Paper only!! Back to the roots of images.........
I SUCKED BIG TIME!!!!!!!!!!!!
Only because I thought in my own "BIG Head" I knew how this works.. WRONG!.....
Younger people 20-25 were pulling it off, Because of still fresh in the memory of Crayons..
Yes I can Draw,Paint,Sketch most 90% of things,But this exercise burn my head out.
I myself have put this tool approach behind me. And take my time on the approch of a Graphic Illustration.
Speed and Graphics to show someone Quickly you communication, is important...
As is the brush work show your understanding of equal and Balance of Enamel Lettering.
Both are the same as It is factored from "Hand and Eye Skills!
But hey! Who am I to say whats right or wrong!
My Airbrushes never drags on the Surfaces... And my Quills arn't worn out at the Heels.
And now I am restarting to learn how to make my pencil edge to last Longer!
-------------------- Stephen Deveau RavenGraphics Insinx Digital Displays
Letting Your Imagination Run Wild! Posts: 4327 | From: Lower Sackville, Nova Scotia, Canada | Registered: Jan 2000
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posted
This is my viewpoint,...not neccesarily the "norm".
That said,..I feel there is a big difference in being able to type out,... and or draw a letterform. There is a huge gap between knowing and recognizing fonts and,... making your own. There is a difference in taking the time and exercising the discipline to illustrate with the tradional methods and cropping a photo in a bitmap editing program. It is impossible to compare the skill required to put graphics on something with a brush or airbrush compared to the task of doing it with graphics from a machine.
You are asking us to compare two completely different disciplines and come to a conclusion as to which is better,....that depends on the individual practicing the discipline, and the person who uses his or her efforts. Talent is a perceptive concept.It is not something you can go out and buy. Some consider it to be a gift,while others come to think of it as something aquired through years of discipline.
In the past I have seen tradesmen who could put that touch of magic "talent" into almost any method they used to produce efforts that were highly superior to any of their competitors efforts,and on the other hand learned proffessionals who with decades of training and study behind them who never could seem to quite "cut the mustard", so to speak. Often as not it is the patience to practice a discipline more so than a "divine blessing" that the general public percieves as talent. Einstien said genius is one percent intelligence and 99 percent prespiration.
It is understandably upsetting to those of us who worked diligently for years to attain a skill,only to see our competitors "buy" technology and instantly have skills that were once considered with high reguard and demanded an above average compensation. Does that make them any less or more in our reguard? It shouldn't but human nature being what it is there will be those that ridicule and try to belittle their fellow mans efforts in one way or another to make themselves feel superior or imply that superiority to their fellow man.Then there is the image often portrayed to the public of the "shakey-jake" by the technology salesmen.
As for myself I am a portrait pictoral journeyman and went to a great deal of effort to attain that skill. It didn't come down like a bolt of lightning from the sky,it took years and years of hard dangerous work. The trade as we know it no longer is in need of that service thanks to the technology of digital printing. My fellow peers in the trade who were simply journeymen no longer have work in their chosen field either due to this technology.
So you ask me if I should embrace the "talent" it takes for my peers who practice the very technology that took away my livelyhood? Don't hold your breath,....
There is no way signgold is ever going to demand the value of actual gold leaf,..much less survive into antiquity making the efforts of the tradesman who use it worth more in value when percieved as an antique. There is no way a digital print will survive to become a work of art and last beyond several decades. While technology has added some productive capabilites to our trade, it has it price. It is simply put an effort to augment the lack of skilled artisans available in our society.
Lets get realistic here,...for the most part the technology was researched and developed to fill a void in our society. In order for it to be cost effective in the first place there had to be a need for it. Until the turn of the 20th century artists were considered "proffessionals" along the same lines as lawyers,doctors,engineers,etc. .
My first meet was at Ricky's shop in Warner Robbins and while there I understood the letterhead movement was to keep the traditional methods practiced in our trade and inspire others to learn them in addition to embracing technology.There I was taught to share,...not hide the techniques I was taught as a young man. At no time were we encouraged to consider ourselves as less or more,...in fact we were encouraged to leave our ego at the door.
So in answer to your question NO. In true letterhead spirit it is not practical to even consider.
-------------------- fly low...timi/NC is, Tim Barrow Barrow Art Signs Winston-Salem,NC Posts: 2224 | From: Winston-Salem,NC,USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Yes, if its gonna be good, it has to be done by hand.
Have any of you tried to paint, gold leaf or apply vinyl with a cat's paw or a horse's hoof? Trust me. They just don't do as well has the human hand. Just ask the elephants at the zoo.
BTW, quote: _______________________________________________ As for myself I am a portrait pictoral journeyman and went to a great deal of effort to attain that skill. It didn't come down like a bolt of lightning from the sky,it took years and years of hard dangerous work. The trade as we know it no longer is in need of that service thanks to the technology of digital printing. My fellow peers in the trade who were simply journeymen no longer have work in their chosen field either due to this technology. _______________________________________________
There still ain't no one who can slap vinyl on brick.
posted
What Ray, Timi and Father Ricky, said... But I feel totally at this time that all the hardware and software are a Godsend on a personal level. The most disturbing thing about this modern industry today is the unbelievable waste and supply costs. In reality...electronics are functionally cheap to build for the marketplace these days and profits reaped from ongoing sales make new upgrades a dreamworld for providers. I would only hope to see as much progress made in reprocessing the scraps from daily production from all the signage being made everywhere that could become a usefull byproduct. Certainly myself I do more computer art than some shops and most for my own use as a fine art form as well as creating art for specific clients. I have to thank this new industry for draggin' my ass into having to learn things that made me feel disgusted just from looking at a Gerber 4b and then the progession from there. I now, at my decrepid age have the ability to entertain many new ideas and find fertile green pastures in which to dwell. So...the answer is, get down wid yer bad self and don't worrrrrrry be happppppy!
CrazyJack
-------------------- Jack Wills Studio Design Works 1465 E.Hidalgo Circle Nye Beach / Newport, OR Posts: 2914 | From: Rocklin, CA. USA | Registered: Dec 1998
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posted
I doubt that I could add much to what Timi said, but I too am from the old school. In my early days, I did all the things a journeyman had to do to be a true sign-person. Pictorial bulletins all over Tampa, Gold Leaf all over St. Pete, All the graphics for the stadium in Tampa during the Superbowl 18, All the interior wall graphics in the Sun Dome when it was new. I even welded the aluminum sign cases for the for directional signage at the dome. Signs were a select and distinct craft that took years to apprentice. This is pretty much gone as printers now do portraits and foils replace Leaf. Having said this, I left the sign business because of what one man said to me. "You can only do some much with your hands, starting using your mind." Is there a point here? I really don't know. Yes I miss the pride of making signs, but many skills have been eroded. Watch a computerized plasma cutter cut sheet steel, that one is gone too. It is time to move on and if you enjoy what you are doing and take pride in it, you are blessed. If it causes you consternation, move on. All the old craftsmen will soon be gone and the new ones will take their place in whatever the world will become. I watched as customers told someone how to do the signs. I remember customers putting hundreds of words on a bulletin board, and then blamed the sign-person when it didn't draw customers. They didn't realize that over 7 words and the passing motorists will not read it. Who is telling the young people that buys a machine these things, and most of all teaching them to stand up to the customers? The customer asks can you get 50 words on one line? The answer is yes. Can you read it? The answer is no. I am retired and living in the mountains, guess what I did today. I took a tubing trip down a river, take time with your family and take a tubing trip as often as you can. Thanks for indulging me.
-------------------- Bob Nugent Hotrodsonline.com Gainesville, GA 30506 hotrod@hotrodsonline.com Posts: 46 | From: Gainesville, Georgia | Registered: Mar 2003
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quote: "is the pervasive thinking actually still that "true talent" and being a tech based shop are mutually exclusive?"
I believe that "true talent" can dwell in a tech based shop. I love the new gadgets... and am currently patiently waiting on the arrival of our new CNC router. Pretty high tech stuff.
If I am currently considered a "letterhead" (and I do consider myself one) I won't cease to be one when our high tech machine arrives in a couple of weeks. Even Raymond Chapman, THE guru of hand lettering, is seriously considering such a pruchase.
The machine may change how we currently do some things in our shop, no doubt about that. The machine will affect the design process to some degree as it won't be able to read vague concept drawings and sketches or even more vague descriptions I sometimes give my crew. But that is just for the pieces the machine turns out. It will change production on some things too, from all hand based to a combination of machine produced and hand assembled with other things made as before. The machine won't change our status as letterheads - at least I hope not...
We use a hand held plasma cutter now, which has largely replaced the cutting torch we used before that. I see it as a way to save many hours with the grinding disk. It also is a LOT safer to operate. It doesn't take the craftsmanship out of the product, but rather saves labor and makes the finished product better.
If I had the room in the shop and could justify it I would get a CNC plasma cutter in a heartbeat. And I don't think it would jeapordize my status as a letterhead. At least I hope not.
All that being said, I think being a letterhead is somewhat different, especially in regard to meets I've been to.
A letterhead meet is about painting, by hand for the most part. Its about sharing techniques and learning things never before done. The Letterhead meets are about fellowship, comraderie, and forming friendships.
While the daily routines in MOST shops are different by far, the gatherings are about doing things the 'old' way - at least for those few days when you are there.
Most who attend meets are determined to use what they learn at meets from time to time in their daily work. A few are inspired to do much more than that.
I admire good work no matter how it is produced.
-grampa dan
-------------------- Dan Sawatzky Imagination Corporation Yarrow, British Columbia dan@imaginationcorporation.com http://www.imaginationcorporation.com
Being a grampa is one of the the most wonderful things in the world!!! Posts: 8738 | From: Yarrow, B.C. Canada | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
If I were to teach someone how to run a shop, be in business, however you say it, I would teach them to at least be able to draw letter forms and pencil sketch a layout. To run a shop without that, in my opinion, would be operating without core talent.
Technology is neat in some regards, aside from what Timi said it has done to the market. What he said about filling a void is really interesting, probably the most succint comment on the subject I've ever heard.
Strange that this should come up right now, just 1/2 hour ago, my son was listening to a tape from a missionary in the South pacific. The natives were fascinated with his small motorcycle, as they had NOT YET INVENTED THE WHEEL. I thought how long it would take, even if they started today, to advance to the point of making a modern car with computer controled fuel injection, anti lock brakes and so on. I didn't dwell on it, but it made me wonder about being way behind on technology.
Technology is also neat so long as you own it, and it doesn't own you and your time, trying to make payments on machines.
-------------------- James Donahue Donahue Sign Arts 1851 E. Union Valley Rd. Seymour TN. (865) 577-3365 brushman@nxs.net
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what's for lunch, Benjamin Franklin Posts: 2057 | From: 1033 W. Union Valley Rd. | Registered: Feb 2003
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To answer the original question of is it required that something be done by hand to qualify for "being good" I'd say no, but more than likely. In most cases the finished job, when done by a machine, just lacks something. Sure, there are a few folks out there doing dynamite work with machines, but damn few. Timi mentioned the outdoor advertising section. Boy here is one area that is an excellent example. You simply can not compare a billboard done with todays methods of scanning a photo to one done by somebody like Timi or Bill Masters. You can scan something into a computer, print it out on digital and stick it on a car hood. You just can not compare this to something airbrushed by Mike Lavallee or Rod Tickle. And just who in the hell created all the cool fonts we fall all over to buy???? Not a machine. Machines are out there that do much better jobs than humans this is true. Computer controlled plasma cutters are a good example. Machines can not create on their own nor in most cases do a better job than something done by hand. I'm talking the creative part, not the production part. Let's jump out of the sign field for a momement. Do you think Prince's band would have sounded better or even as good if he replaced Shelia E with a friggin drum machine??????? Would you sit in awe watching the drum machine????? I can appreciate a great looking sign or truck door lettering done entirely by computer. I can appreciate the talent that it took to pull it off. I'm just not in awe like I would be looking at an Alton Gillispie or Glenn Weisgerber job.
You either get it or you don't
-------------------- George Perkins Millington,TN. goatwell@bigriver.net
"I started out with nothing and still have most of it left"
posted
Was I ever wrong. What I thought would be a civil war bashing actually resulted in some very insightful perceptions.
And probably Tim stated my thoughts better than me. I admire craftsmanship and ability in almost any area - most (if not all) arrive at that level due to practice, hard work, and passion. There are no short cuts. What tools are used along the way are of little consequence, because it is what comes out of the heart that makes the difference.
Edited to add: Recently I watched Mike Lavallee's video on True Fire. At some point there may be a computer program that will do what he does, but I doubt it. Even now there are those that try to imitate what he does, but with little success. At one point in the video he made a comment similar to "just let the art flow out of the end of the airbrush". Before it can get out the end of the brush (or pencil, or computer) it has to orginate in the heart.
Also, on some of the TV programs you will notice that Mike uses some very elaborate computer aids and then produces a mask for some of his work. It still comes across as Mike Lavalee though. That computer did not replace Mike's brain.
[ August 20, 2005, 12:03 PM: Message edited by: Raymond Chapman ]
-------------------- Chapman Sign Studio Temple, Texas chapmanstudio@sbcglobal.net Posts: 6306 | From: Temple, Texas, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Let's not forget the joys in painting, carving, gilding and spraying......they are full of smell, touch...and are experiences unique unto themselves. As a Letterhead, I treasure the hours that seem like seconds that I spend enjoying these pursuits. Being with brothers of the brush, at a meet or here in cyberspace, invigorates that shared joy!
...and we can talk about making a living and good design! Here is where all of the tools and technologies are welcome!
Thanks for caring about these precious things! Dawn Lane JFS Toronto
-------------------- Steve Lane jackflashsigns 19894 Yonge Street Holland Landing ON (905) 886-9656 jackflashsigns@rogers.com Posts: 34 | From: Holland Landing ON (serving the GTA for over 30 years) | Registered: Jul 2005
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posted
To answer your original posted heading....*No*
For instance: I know a lot of young techno-freaks that can create some outstanding 3D animation on the computer, but don't do so well sketching by hand.
It's a very different thing somehow, drawing with a mouse and drawing with a pencil. And in that field, I believe that sometimes sketches from traditional artists are provided for the techie guys to use for templates....and when they're done...wow!
Still...there has to be some creative aptitude there....and I believe that with training in the *old ways* these techies would probably prove to be pretty good candidates for hand-rendered processes.
I remember having life drawing classes in college...( I have a graphic design degree)...and we'd draw nudes (completely nude)...both male and female.
Our teacher used to say that if you could master drawing the human figure with all of it's subtleties and nuances, you could draw most anything. And look at the old masters - this seems to be an accurate assessment to me. it was a good class and helped me tremendously.
Although this one egomaniac body builder named "Dan" used to really like to pose with his *package* prominently displayed towards the girls in the class...and he'd work on making dates with them at break.
My instructor used to walk around and review the students sketches and he'd always smile and shake his head because I always drew Dan in proportion, except for his "winkie"....which I would draw about 1/2" in length.
You see, egomaniacal Dan used to walk around looking at the sketches of himself in all his bodybuilder buffed glory - which would further reinforce his bloated ego....it always upset him when he saw my sketch....with his extremely small weiner...hehehehehehehe.
-------------------- Todd Gill Outside The Lines Potterville, MI Posts: 7792 | From: Potterville, MI | Registered: Dec 2001
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posted
Art is art no matter what the medium is. It is either good or not based on what it looks like,not what it is made of or how it is made.I am very happy not to be competing in these times without old skills.Those of us old school people who have learned the new skills are in a much better position to compete than those that cant paint or do things the old way.Although there are many shops cranking out big bucks just cutting vinyl,I happy not to be one of them. I still do more with paint because of my striping biz,however I dont want to give up my plotter.
posted
To be good, you just need to do a really nice layout and produce READABLE not legible signs. Being GREAT is a different story.... I have yet to meet a vinyl jockey that can even come close to doing beautiful work like Doug Bernhardt, Glen Weisgerber, Alan Johnson, Larry White, David Smith among others that I don't know. They all prefer the traditional methods and are my heros of the brush. Their use of old techniques give them the flexibility that a computer can't produce without hours of manipulation or thouands of dollars in extra programs then it still won't last for 50 years or more. So, I am still pretty new to the whole painting game with only 8 years under my belt and limited apprenticeship, but if I didn't use the computer another day, I would never miss it. Like Alan Johnson says, what do you do if the power goes out? Knowing both methods is far more productive, I mean who wants to do a project sign with 500 1/2" Helvetica letters.... At the same time, the guys I mentioned before don't get bothered with work like that. When I was in school for Graphic Design, we had to fill sheets of paper with the basic strokes of the letter done with a chisel point pencil, then do sheets and sheets of foundation hand letters, miniscules and majiscules, we had to do paste-ups and manual layout and kerning.... Every class there was someone saying how much it sucked and that they just wanted to use the computer... It is a dis-service to oneself to refuse to learn the way things were done and the art of visualization to just get it done quickly. Haste makes waste.
-------------------- Doug Fielder Fallout Grafix Port St. Lucie, FL
16 years with a brush in my hand... Posts: 273 | From: Port St. Lucie, FL | Registered: May 1999
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DrCAS Custom Lettering and Design Saint Cloud, Minnesota
"Things work out best for the people who make the best of the way things work out." - Art Linkletter Posts: 6451 | From: Saint Cloud, Minnesota | Registered: Jun 1999
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posted
Bob, this debate of "hand done" vs. computer assisted signmaking has been argued ad nauseum and has been beaten into the ground.
I am going back to sleeping.
-------------------- Bruce Bowers
DrCAS Custom Lettering and Design Saint Cloud, Minnesota
"Things work out best for the people who make the best of the way things work out." - Art Linkletter Posts: 6451 | From: Saint Cloud, Minnesota | Registered: Jun 1999
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posted
I remember the first time I saw vinyl on a truck I asked myself, do they offer the customer a toothbrush to remove the wax from around the edges, after its waxed of course
-------------------- HotLines Joey Madden - pinstriping since 1952 'Perfection, its what I look for and what I live for'
DrCAS Custom Lettering and Design Saint Cloud, Minnesota
"Things work out best for the people who make the best of the way things work out." - Art Linkletter Posts: 6451 | From: Saint Cloud, Minnesota | Registered: Jun 1999
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posted
Oh, Barry, you are so freakin' brilliant...
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!
-------------------- Bruce Bowers
DrCAS Custom Lettering and Design Saint Cloud, Minnesota
"Things work out best for the people who make the best of the way things work out." - Art Linkletter Posts: 6451 | From: Saint Cloud, Minnesota | Registered: Jun 1999
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