posted
I'm hesitant about sharing this story, but it's too hard to hold in.
Last week, the shop manager at the sign shop in Punta Gorda that I used to work, dropped by on Tuesday. Their designer had taken another position and they had an opening...and would I be interested. Well, a year ago, I had quit to work for a new magazine here...partly because of much more money, but mostly because of some goofy office politics. The owner had been upset with me for quitting, but it really was a no-brainer for me at the time.
I was surprised that they were interested in having me back, considering the owner's feelings about me leaving. But, I told the shop manager that I'd be interested. (I've been out of work since August and beggars can't be choosers...I don't have money enough left to relocate and so am pretty much stuck with trying to find something local.)
So, lo and behold, he drops by on Friday afternoon and tells me that I have my job back (at a whopping $12/hr) and to be at the shop at 8:30 Monday morning.
If you're still with me, here's the punchline. I'm there at 8:30, but wait in the other room till 9 since the office manager (not the shop manager, who wasn't there) was with a customer. She then comes in to tell me that the owner had filled the position and I didn't have a job there...but the owner had asked her to ask me if I'd be interested in doing some freelance design for them.
I was very polite and told her that I'd have to think about that.
Now for the punchline after the punchline: The shop manager (person who told me I was hired) drops in later that afternoon. He tells me that the owner has decided that he wants to farm out all of his vinyl jobs, because the people they have been screwing up all the vinyl jobs and he needs to stop the bleeding from doing jobs over. So, this guy (the shop manager) tells me that he and the office manager are going to start a new business that will handle all of this guy's vinyl work, and they want me to do all the design, prep and install work.
He offered me 20% of the sales, plus an hourly salary. I asked him what the hourly salary would be and he tells me $12/hr. (gee, wonder where he got that number from?lol)
He wanted to talk about this "new business", but I wanted to discuss what had happened at his office earlier that day. I told him that if they really wanted to humiliate me right, he should have asked me to show up for work wearing an easter bunny suit.
I'm not posting this for suggestions, I have plenty of ideas already...Like asking him for 20% of sales, $20/hr, $1000 sign on bonus and a night with his sister and her girlfriend. It's just so ridiculous that I wanted to share.
posted
I've had a change of heart, but instead of editing, will say in this new post...if you have any suggestions what I should tell this guy, have at it. I really don't see any reason to take him seriously, so advice saying I should take the job will likely not be taken. (read that as "will NOT be taken")
I feel a bit like Charley Brown and this joker is playing Lucy with the football. LOL
My mind wanders. And that's not a good thing, 'cause it's too small to be out there alone. Posts: 3129 | From: Tooele, UT | Registered: Mar 2005
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posted
It sounds like there was a real and serious lack of discussion, communication, and planning between the shop manager and the owner regarding an extremely important decision: Hiring a person and what their wages should be.
I hope it's not illustriative of the way they are going to continue to run their business . . .it's a very bad start and I would need to have both of them face to face say so, in order to make a judgement based on their response:
Will they 'go off' on the defensive and make excuses for their lack of business management skills? If so ...run away...'cause it'll prolly get worse...
Will they sincerely aplogize and admit they need help and are actually in the process of stepping-up to the plate, recognizing their 'growing-pains' and correcting their weaknesses? And do they feel you would be a respected key-team player in that process?
In that case, you might want to consider giving them some time either with or without you, to see if they can actually run a successful business together . . .
I would also make it clear to them that you are not going to allow them to exploit your financial situation and have them walking around feeling as if your life depends on them, which MIGHT be the whole crux of the 'sudden' change in plans...some twisted attitude they have thinking that you will snap up any bait they offer out of your desparation . . .which is a silly 'game' and shows worse traits than a lack of communication or business skills.
Since you've pretty much 'anted-up' by a display of some interest & need for the job, I'm all for forcing their hand. Life's too short to play these ridiculous 'business' games.
Good luck Don.
-------------------- Signs Sweet Home Alabama
oneshot on chat
"Look like a girl, act like a lady, think like a man, work like a dog" Posts: 5758 | From: "Sweet Home" Alabama | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
Don, your skills are worth a whole lot more than $12/hr. When money is tight almost anything looks good, but I'm glad you are keeping your dignity. I'm curious as to what you would charge to do some design work or vectorizing. I'm sure that there are quite a few of us on here who could use your services in that. I would suspect that you can do the vectorizing in half the time most of us here could. If you are interested send me an email - I can't promise anything, but I'd like to discuss it.
-------------------- “Did you ever stop to think, and forget to start again?” -Winnie the Pooh & A.A. Milne
Kelly Thorson Kel-T-Grafix 801 Main St. Holdfast, SK S0G 2H0 ktg@sasktel.net Posts: 5496 | From: Penzance, Saskatchewan | Registered: May 2002
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posted
Sounds like a little jerking around might be in order on your end Don. Make the deal, let them get set up and then change your mind and leave 'em high and dry. ...and don't forget to include his sister and her girlfriend if she's hot.
-------------------- Ricky Jackson Signs Now 614 Russell Parkway Warner Robins, GA (478) 923-7722 signpimp50@hotmail.com
"If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants." Sir Issac Newton Posts: 3528 | From: Warner Robins, GA | Registered: Oct 2004
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posted
How much vinyl work do you think this contract is worth...
The deal doesn't really sound bad Don... $12 per hour +20% of gross on a new business start up.
If the business does 100k annually that would be a 20,000 bonus above a 24,000k salary, if the business did 200k that's be a 40,000 bonus over a 24,000 salary.
quote: He wanted to talk about this "new business", but I wanted to discuss what had happened at his office earlier that day.
I can understand you're frustration over the days happenings, but maybe what you're watching is a power struggle and the outcome of which is that the office manager, and the shop manager are branching out on their own. So now the question is 'Are these people you can trust and work with?' I'd say go for it, you've got nothing to lose but your time and there is potentially a lot of upside.
-------------------- Mike O'Neill
It has yet to be proven that intelligence has any survival value. - Arthur C. Clarke
posted
O'neill is WAAAAY to optimistic. It's easy to sit back and talk about those kinda numbers in the abstract, but it's ludicrous to think a start-up with THIS kind of foundation is gonna approach anywhere near that kinda money, ESPECIALLY with the level of instability that Don Illustrated.
And was that 20% off the top? or was that some sort of comission on your Sales, Don? That makes quite the difference...
I wouldn't do it either.
[ April 27, 2005, 01:18 PM: Message edited by: Barry Branscum ]
posted
Go whup his ass Don. Thats what he needs. And break out a window or two also.
-------------------- Maker of fine signs and other creative stuff. Located at 109 N. Cumberland ave. Harlan, Ky. 40831 606-837-0242 Posts: 4172 | From: Ages-Brookside, Ky. Up the Holler... | Registered: Jul 1999
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The owner wants to sub out his vinyl stuff because his own employees are screwing it up.
So to remedy the situation, two of his potentially key employees are leaving to form their own business to which the owner is going to send his vinyl work?
And they want to (ab)use you for their design plus the crapwork?
What kinda mickey mouse operation is this??
Gee seems to me if his office manager and shop manager knew what the hell they were doing, they should be put in charge of the work that the other people are screwing up or hire someone else that knows what's up.
What happens when the owner decides he no longer wants to give that work to the new business, or he cannot afford to because without his regular shop manager and office manager the flow of work takes a dive?
What I would do in your case is reject their $12/hr + 20% offer and come back with your own terms.
$40-$60/hr Independent Contractor rate, based on the number of hours they can provide you. The more hours they have for you, the lower their rate. You remain independent and free to seek other projects and work for yourself.
That 20% they're offering is bogus. It's a carrot they're waving trying to lure you because they know $12/hr is rediculously low for the talent you can provide.
Well, let's be realistic here. They're a start-up. 20% of Nothing is NOTHING.
While 20% might sound good it basically gives them a way to get out of making a committment to you.
If they can't make the committment it means they are still unsure about their own dealings. It means they don't have a client base. It means they don't have a plan of action in place already.
Since they cannot committ to you, you are under no obligation to committ all your time to them.
Tell them the only way you'll help them is on your terms - completely independent, at the rate you specify.
-------------------- "If I share all my wisdom I won't have any left for myself."
Mike Pipes stickerpimp.com Lake Havasu, AZ mike@stickerpimp.com Posts: 8746 | From: Lake Havasu, AZ USA | Registered: Jun 2000
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posted
Hiya Don, The whole thing stinks to high heaven. Run like hell!! or, Cut out these scammers and approach the owner of the business with a similar proposition. Tell him that for a reasonable salary and commission, you will make his business profitable again. The only stipulations are that you have total control of the business which includes hiring and firing of all employees. You already know the forst two you need to fire You will also need access to the books and control of setting prices and policy, so you can make sure that the work you do is profitable. If he bites, set your goals and put everything in writing. When these goals are met, you must be rewarded accordingly. Good luck with whatever path you take and be sure to keep us informed on what happens.
Havin' fun,
Checkers
-------------------- a.k.a. Brian Born www.CheckersCustom.com Harrisburg, Pa Work Smart, Play Hard Posts: 3775 | From: Harrisburg, Pa. U.S.A. | Registered: Nov 1998
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Lol...did Dana & Co move to Florida after I left Mesa or what!??? Sounds like that kind of a deal exactly...RUN, RUN AS FAST AS YOU CAN, in the other direction!
Karen
PS..Myra..priceless!!!
-------------------- Karen Sartain,'Pisel' on chat 11699 E Hwy 181 Willcox, Arizona 85643
We are not human beings on a spiritual journey.We are spiritual beings on a human journey."-Stephen Covey Posts: 336 | From: Chiricahua National Monument, Az | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Don I have to agree with Checkers on this one.
Contact the owner of the business, You have NOTHING to lose and EVERYTHING to gain in this situation. It sounds to me like the owner would love to DUMP these idiots and would welcome with open arms someone who could rebuild the business and do quality work which we know your capable of.
GO FOR IT!!!
JUST DO IT!!!
Columbus took a chance. He got a holiday named after him. (my favorite quote)
-------------------- Harris Kohen K-Man Pinstriping and Graphix Trenton, NJ "Showing the world that even I can strategically place the pigment where its got to go." Posts: 1739 | From: Trenton, NJ, USA | Registered: Jun 2001
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DrCAS Custom Lettering and Design Saint Cloud, Minnesota
"Things work out best for the people who make the best of the way things work out." - Art Linkletter Posts: 6451 | From: Saint Cloud, Minnesota | Registered: Jun 1999
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posted
Harris, I'm not sure you read my starting post...the owner has his head further up his a$$ than anybody else in the company.
He was very upset that I left the company last year and has told me in so many words. The episode Monday morning was not likely an accident or a misunderstanding.
I do think you understood the gyst of the situation better than Mike McNeil. Mike, these people would not have offered me 20% unless there was some way that 20% was likely to be next to zero.
-------------------- Frank Magoo, Magoo's-Las Vegas; fmagoo@netzero.com "the only easy day was yesterday" Posts: 2365 | From: Las Vegas, Nv. | Registered: Jun 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Santo: Can you say, "Confilict of interest" to this Dynamic Duo and steal the business.
If you are going to run the business for them, why not just go down there and start up your own.
-------------------- Drane Signs Sunshine Coast Nambour, Qld. dranesigns@bigpond.com Downunder "To err is human, but to really foul things up requires a computer" Posts: 965 | From: Nambour, Qld. Australia | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
$12 an hour working there with them paying the matching taxes required for an employer ends up costing them around twenty. If there are any benefits the state requires, it goes up from there. Were they planning to pay this, or expect you to take the taxes from your twelve and do your own accounting? Would they provide a location for you to work and purchase a computer and cutter for you? Would the files be yours or theirs? It seems there are way too many details, and you could be left holding the keys to their tax jail cells.
-------------------- The SignShop Mendocino, California
Making the simple complicated is commonplace; making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, that's creativity. — Charles Mingus Posts: 6722 | From: Mendocino, CA. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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quote: So now the question is 'Are these people you can trust and work with?'
I don't have all the facts and I missed your first posting on this story, from your first post in this thread I gathered that the owner was an a$$, but that you could see eye to eye with these other two, from what you're saying that's obviously not the case.
How big is this shop anyway? Sounds like a lot of chiefs (owner, shop manager, office manager) and not enough indians... also sounds like the chiefs don't have a grip on what's going on...
-------------------- Mike O'Neill
It has yet to be proven that intelligence has any survival value. - Arthur C. Clarke
posted
Taxes would be my responsibility, Rick. The guy said I would be a "partner" in the new deal. They would provide a location, cutter, etc. I would do all of the design, all of the weeding and premask, all of the applications by myself.
Mike, the first and only time I've met the office manager was when I was there to be told that the owner had hired someone else and that I had no job there. The shop is 9 or 10 people, including Mr and Mrs owner. And yes, they have a lot of chiefs.
Brian, the owner is the person who gave the go ahead to the shop manager to give me the job, then proceded to fill the job with someone else. I don't think it's a good idea for me to meet with the owner, unless somebody here wants to promise bail money.
Update: the shop manager, who was here on Monday to make this pitch, told me he would email me Tuesday with more details. It's Thursday now, no? Oof! If I wasn't looking for a good job, I'd go back there and find out if I could have a couple tokes off of whatever they're smoking.
To be honest, I knew these people were flakes before I accepted the "phantom" job. I've got money goin out and little coming in and didn't really have a choice about taking it.
Gotta say it again....oof!
(edited to take out too much info about the company...I don't need a lawsuit)
[ April 28, 2005, 12:36 PM: Message edited by: Don Coplen ]
I was once told "You have two choices...letter 5 mailboxes for $20.00 each or one mailbox for a hundred dollars...you just have to decide how hard you want to work...either way you'll have a hundred dollars".
I've found thats pretty close to being true...of course the profit margin drops as the mailboxes get farther away...but it's the same if the customer brings them to you.
Time to go to work!
-------------------- "Werks fer me...it'll werk fer you"
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