posted
I invested about 5 - 6 hours to prepare a quote & I wonder how others handle situations where there looks like a fun & profitable job, that has very good chance of being allocated... but has so many unfamiliar things going on that you need to do research to safely quote the job?
This job had some unfamiliar file conversion challenges, requires contour cutting Gator-foam which I've never dealt with, assembling multiple parts, along with rope lighting, needs to be crated & shipped to another island, & I got the quote request monday, for a deadline of arriving on Big Island on this Sunday.
Sometimes if I don't really care if I get a job, I will just bid ridiculously high & figure it out later if I get the work, but on this one, I decided to answer all my nagging questions first & hope the many hours of homework was not a waste.
Then to boost my justification of the price & in hopes of boosting my clients confidence in me (she is in Las vegas, & has never worked with me) I sent the following email which of course took even more time.
quote: I did quite a bit of research today & worked on the file to determine actual sizes of each componant, create cutlines (where we discussed) for the "Copa Room" graphics, both for the printing & the 3D layer of raised lettering, recreated the borders without the "glow" & set them up, along with the black text & the grey lines for producing & applying with di-cut vinyl graphic films as shown here:
I've reduced the Copa Room lettering to 75 megs, which when rotated can be printed in three 12" sections, applied to the foam & cut with a jig-saw. I printed out a small sample of the lettering to check color, resolution & file compatibility. I have it all set-up & it ready to go. It prints like this:
I located enough material (1/2" Gator-Foam) locally & brought a sample back to see how well it cuts. Here is a sample cut, it smooths out nice with a little sanding:
I bought enough blue colored rope light to do the back-lighting behind the raised "Copa Room" lettering, & if it's in the budget, we can also run it clear around the main panel border. It is this type:
If we go with the light around the border, it could be on the outer surface, but since we have the blue vinyl double border that ties in with the darkest shade of the Copa Room lettering, I think it may look best to match the "halo" lighting effect on the lettering, by mounting the rope light on the back side of the perimeter of the sign. It could then look something like this:
Maybe I should have just thrown up the Hail-Mary huge price tag... but at least I did learn some stuff.
How would other folks deal with such a bid challenge in unfamiliar sign terrain ?
also what do you think this job might be worth, taking in account this brief list of specs.
The sign is out of 1/2" Gator-Foam, the size is 5-4" x 8' (2-pieces) & is cut to match the shape shown above. The "Copa Room" lettering is around 30" x 60" & will be edge printed, mounted to gator-foam & pin-mounted with a 1" stand-off to allow for rope-lighting behind it. The perimeter of the sign will also have rope lighting. The sign will need to be crated (in pieces) & shipped. It needs to be done on Friday at the latest. The design time required for screwing with & resetting up file: 4 hours
The material costs for foam: $100
for lights: $35
for Freight: $150
That should be enough specs to solicit a few 2nd opinions... anyone care to give me an idea what they might have charged? (I'll post my bid later)
Do others spend this much time to roll the dice on a bid like this?
[ January 25, 2005, 06:39 PM: Message edited by: Doug Allan ]
I have spent a lot time doing bids that were in unfamiliar territory. Hey, how else are you going to expand professionally?
I would have done what you did... figure out materials, guestimate your time to as well as you can,figure out what the surcharge for the short deadline, and add something for the "what-if's".
Looks like a fun job! I hope you get it!
-------------------- Bruce Bowers
DrCAS Custom Lettering and Design Saint Cloud, Minnesota
"Things work out best for the people who make the best of the way things work out." - Art Linkletter Posts: 6451 | From: Saint Cloud, Minnesota | Registered: Jun 1999
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posted
Nothing ventured, nothing gained Doug. I'da put in the same effort into research on a project I really wanted to do. If it doesn't pan out, well those are the breaks - you'll have lighting and gatorfoam onhand for a future project.
-------------------- "If I share all my wisdom I won't have any left for myself."
Mike Pipes stickerpimp.com Lake Havasu, AZ mike@stickerpimp.com Posts: 8746 | From: Lake Havasu, AZ USA | Registered: Jun 2000
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posted
I didn't buy the gator foam up front, just went & checked it out to size up it's density, weight, stability/durability & to beg a sample for a trial cut test. I also kept my receipt on the ropelight... but they were pretty low on the blue stuff, so didn't want to trust leaving it there (can't cruise to the Lowes in the next town, like a lot of you can )
I did get the bid though & the Gator foam will be delivered tonight. I'm off to the races to get this thing done.
Still curious what others think a job like this ought to cost though... ballpark price anyone ??
posted
BTW, I didn't spell out my vinyl & edgeprinting costs, since I figure most of us can calculate that ourselves... but don't forget to allow for it.
I think there's an opportunity to charge a consulting fee up front for this sort of project - say $500 or so - and I'm curious to know what you and others might think about the idea.
The expertise you are sharing with a prospective client like this is valuable to them in a number of ways. Reading through the e-mail you sent them tells me that their design concept couldn't simply be "output". They needed someone with your abilities to tell them how they can get a sign made that - as accurately as possible - reflects the original concept. The fact that you needed 5-6 hours to conduct the research and think your way through the practicalities of production bears this out.
A consulting fee protects your interests by ensuring that you get paid for the development time you invest, regardless of whether or not they decide to take your ideas and shop them around.
By requesting a consulting fee, you're implying that they are dealing with an expert; a professional. You are also qualifying how serious they are about the project from the get-go. Let's face it: lots of people won't even think twice about having you invest your time and effort on something they are thinking about proposing to their client or their boss, for example.
Finally, the proposal/quotation that follows can be structured in such a way as to credit the consulting fee against the cost of the job if the contract is awarded to your firm...which provides added perceived value and incentive to award you the contract.
Does that make sense?
Comments?
-------------------- Jon Aston MARKETING PARTNERS "Strategy, Marketing and Business Development" Tel 705-719-9209 Posts: 1724 | From: Barrie, ON, CANADA | Registered: Sep 2000
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(Although I will admit that I may be pushing the envelope too far with this one)
You could consider making the credit (for the consulting fee) contingent upon the client commiting to the project within a reasonable time-frame (you could and should discuss what is "reasonable" with them, first). After that date, the opportunity for credit-toward-purchase ends or is reduced.
Thoughts?
-------------------- Jon Aston MARKETING PARTNERS "Strategy, Marketing and Business Development" Tel 705-719-9209 Posts: 1724 | From: Barrie, ON, CANADA | Registered: Sep 2000
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posted
Good replies. Doug I do it that way too, but I also try and do a 'quick blink stab in the dark guess' of a quote & write that down FIRST. Thyen figure it all out as well as possible, and then compare the two. It helps you to better gauge quotes quickly & gives you more confidence in your abilities in quoting later on. The big fear always is in missing something & underquoting... & two shots are better that one wrong one!
-------------------- "Stewey" on chat
"...there are no limits when you aim for perfection..." Jonathan Livingston Seagull Posts: 7014 | From: Highgrove via Toowoomba, Queensland, Australia | Registered: Dec 2002
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You eat the learning curve, consider it a course you just paid for.
BTW, I don't know how you intend to attach the rope light, but I suggest using thin wire. Poke two holes (on each side of the rope) and shove the wire through and twist it on the back.
[ January 26, 2005, 08:53 AM: Message edited by: Gene Golden ]
-------------------- Gene Golden Gettysburg Signs Gettysburg PA 17325 717-334-0200 genegolden@gettysburgsigns.com
"Art is knowing when to stop." Posts: 1578 | From: Gettysburg, PA | Registered: Jun 2003
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posted
We routinely bid jobs which are 'out there' for us. Almost every simgle job is like that for that's where I like to be.
Like you say there's two ways to bid... wild but a somwhat educated guess or I take the time to figure things out in detail.
Most times it's somewhere in betwen the two.
I consider it the cost of doing business. Even if we don't get the job its surprising how much easier it makes the quotes the next time something similar comes up.
-grampa dan
-------------------- Dan Sawatzky Imagination Corporation Yarrow, British Columbia dan@imaginationcorporation.com http://www.imaginationcorporation.com
Being a grampa is one of the the most wonderful things in the world!!! Posts: 8738 | From: Yarrow, B.C. Canada | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Keeping the rope lighting behind the letters may prove to be a challenge. The time frame is very short to do much experimenting. The material costs will be minimal compared to your time. If you are putting rope lighting around the main panel, it too will have to stand-off from the wall. Allow yourself enough time in the project to put all the elements together and find a mounting system. My guess would be around 2K.
-------------------- "Are we having fun yet?" Peter Schuttinga DZines Sign Studio 1617 Millstream rd Victoria BC V9B-6G4 Posts: 521 | From: Victoria BC | Registered: Mar 2002
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posted
Doug I figured the job out the way I normally do and came up with a complete price of $3,600.00 and thats what I would do it for. If they dont want to pay that much so be it. But trust me it is possible to get that price for it. You just have to demand it.
My price is based more on perceived value rather than time and material even though I could knock this job out fast. Having CNC router table and large format printing makes this an easy piece.
-------------------- Bob Stephens Skywatch Signs Zephyrhills, FL
posted
What Bob, said except for the word "demand" I interject the word "command" as your portfolio should speak for itself. No risk,no reward. Sometimes the more you ask the more they want it.
CrazyJack
-------------------- Jack Wills Studio Design Works 1465 E.Hidalgo Circle Nye Beach / Newport, OR Posts: 2914 | From: Rocklin, CA. USA | Registered: Dec 1998
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posted
I too am with Bob, This job will and should have a high percieved value due to the drama you will be creating.
The fact rope light and gator board re inexspensive is truly secondary. Just because you have found an effecient way to chieve something does not mean you should be selling it aat a reduced price.
posted
Thanks for all the great replies. I didn't mention, though it may be obvious, that this sign will be used one night & thrown away. I like Bob's price, but the "throw-away" factor did enter the equasion in my mind. Maybe it shouldn't... but once I elected to quote the long painful way, I had more invested in this gamble, so I wanted to risk less.
The sign will be out from the wall & held by what my client referred to as "theater jacks" she said something like one 2x4 horizontally across the back will give them a place to hook it up. I will be wiring the perimeter lights to back side of the main panel, maybe set in 3/4" to keep the wire holes from being too close to the edge. The lettering will be in front of the other lighting, but it won't attach to the letering, it will be on the face of the main panel. I'm not expecting much difficulty, I'll let you all know later
I like Ian's idea of guessing first, & then figuring it out. I didn't think about it, but thats what I did too. I guessed $2500 - $3000 I charged $2500.
I also have to make 4 really stupid little coroplast things with about 3 sq. ft. of edge graphics on them. I'm chraging $125 ea. for them, so that quickly gets my price up to $3000 for very little additional labor & material.
They have now also offered to pay to fly me over to the big island to re-assemble the pieces over there. I'll use Bob's price as an excuse to raise my per diem fees a little, since we haven't negotiated that part yet.
You seem to have received the sort of feedback you were after, so I hope you will forgive me for hi-jacking your post.
I'm "bumping" because I would really like to 'hear' some opinions in regard to my comments above.
Does anyone have an opinion?
Is anyone already doing this?
Anyone thinking about giving it a try?
If not, why not? (I'm especially interested in anyone's reasons for not doing it / not trying it)
in advance!
-------------------- Jon Aston MARKETING PARTNERS "Strategy, Marketing and Business Development" Tel 705-719-9209 Posts: 1724 | From: Barrie, ON, CANADA | Registered: Sep 2000
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posted
John I can see the value in your point but I think its more of a crossover issue. I think you're either a sign maker OR a sign consultant. I'm not sure why you can't be both but I think for the most part we are consultants every day in our work except for the title.
When I think of consultant, large involved projects come to mind and for most of us here our day to day work is the small simple stuff.
Now the company Rick Chavez works at brings to mind the type of work that would require a consultant. I don't know if I personally want to get into the consulting biz as I have enough on my plate already.
-------------------- Bob Stephens Skywatch Signs Zephyrhills, FL
posted
I got a call just as I was reading this, & it was an existing client with several vans I have done their logo on. They have a box truck now & want something different... the same logo but "bigger" & "bolder" somehow...
I often take a photo & show a sign layout on a truck for no upfront fee, but in this case (m aybe somewhat influenced by this thread) I told her I could do some photo mock-ups for a fee to help her decide on something cool. I'm thinking "wrap-style" huge logo bleeding off the edges etc. etc. & didn't want to go down that guessing game road for free. I said the fees could be discounted back off the job if we go ahead with it.
This is not the first time I've done this, but your post probably helped me let that fee roll off the toung easier this morning
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in advance!
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