posted
and i thought all this time is was people who liked to fish....
i'm with kim z on this...i don't believe any business needs to mix religion in their ads or lettering unless they are direct sellers of communion, pews, tapered candles, holy robes, wine or whatever is used in church.
i find it in poor taste that anyone would use religion in hopes to get the "buddist" business...and joke about it to boot.
-------------------- Karyn Bush Simply Not Ordinary, LLC Bartlett, NH 603-383-9955 www.snosigns.com info@snosigns.com Posts: 3516 | From: Bartlett, NH USA | Registered: Jan 2001
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I don't jump into many of these "religious" posts but I though I might relate a personal story about bad experience gone right.
A few years back it was announced at church that a guest speaker would be giving the message in a couple of weeks. The name sounded familiar to me and than I remembered. 25 years ago when my business was just getting off the ground and this guy who was a member of our fellowship was trying to get some "discount card" thing going. We screened posters, decals and the cards themselves for him. No deposit, just the word of a brother. It failed and he bailed after paying a very small amount of his rather large bill. He left town and we tried unsuccessfully to track him down.
Yep, same guy, now a minister. In conversation with one of our pastors, he asked if I would be coming to the service. I said "no" and told him the short version of the story.
A few evenings later I received a phone call from this pastor. He apologized and confessed that he didn't remember the details and asked me what I thought he owed us, (I had a founding partner that was now deceased). I told him the figure that I recalled and he asked if I would please come to the service. I did.
He sought me out before the service, apologized and handed me an envelope. It had full payment in it and a two page letter apologizing for his actions and mostly for the damage to the Lord's reputation the his actions caused.
I thanked him and forgave him to his face. I than split the check with my partners widow.
We all screw up intentionally or unintentionally, Christian or non-Christian. As a Christian I just believe that God's grace is bigger than my faults and pray the He show's me my mistakes. It's than my responsibility to make them right as well as possible. It's all about redemption, God to us, man to man.
Oh yea, using the fish. I personally, don't use it, a few of my customers do, usually in a rather miniscule version. That doesn't bother me nearly as much as some of the necks I see a cross hanging around.
As Red Green says, "I'm pulling for ya, we're all in this together".
-------------------- Bill Modzel Mod-Zel screen Printing Traverse city, MI modzel@sbcglobal.net Posts: 1357 | From: Traverse City, MI | Registered: Nov 1998
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Lets see here. All of the biggest crooks that I have ever run into tried to cram there religion down my throat. Then they tried to stick me. It is a shame but the symbol does turn me off. I will still do business with them but I take more precautions with them and they never seem to let me down. There is one exception Donald Thompson uses it on all of his signs and ads. He is my best letterhead friend and I would trust him with anything. I have seen how he treats his customers and his employees and how he conducts his business and I am sure he is one of the best most honest people I have ever met. I would not hesitate to do business with him.
-------------------- Ryan Young Indocil Art & Design indocil@comporium.net 803-980-6765
I highjacked Letterville!! Winter Muster 2004 Posts: 904 | From: Rock Hill, SC | Registered: Sep 2001
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The use of symbols sometimes fog over what the business is really about...like the Dentist sign near here...most of the sign is taken up with the GA Bulldog.
The same thing happens when someone uses their name so large on a sign there is no room for identifying the type of business.
-------------------- Rove Gratz Gratz Signs 342 Walden Station Drive Macon, GA 31216 rovegratz@aol.com Home Page: http://rove-342.tripod.com Posts: 861 | From: Macon, GA 31216 | Registered: Jan 2004
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I confess, I have numerous incosistancies in my life. I see the fish symbol as I would a flag decal or political lapel pin. Ever see someone buy some inexpensive product in Wal Mart that was made by a kid in an exploited country and they go out to a car with a buy American sticker on it? I can find so many areas in my walk that are well intentioned, but compromised either because of ignorance or some devious intention, but I sure do appreciate loving help to get my ducks in a row.
-------------------- The SignShop Mendocino, California
Making the simple complicated is commonplace; making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, that's creativity. — Charles Mingus Posts: 6722 | From: Mendocino, CA. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Bill Modzell's best post ever. Your reply is very poignant and speaks for my views also. I have always shied away from external religious symbols and icons because it seems a shallow way to express my faith. More so now that most of them have been co-opted by mass merchandisers and jewelry merchants as just another piece of adornment. (Bill, all this time I thought Apple Inc. was your church. )
-------------------- Wright Signs Wyandotte, Michigan Posts: 2785 | From: Wyandotte, MI USA | Registered: Jan 1999
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My competitor here in my small town uses the fish in their logo, it's on their trucks, all their advertising.....but these same folks warranty their edge prints for life..then blame the customer when they fade...use calendered vinyl on 90% of their work...then blame the customer when it curls up...will gladly do signage for casinos and bars and then wrap one of their unrented billboards with something condeming the drinkers and gamblers. What really got me was going to a meeting in the mayors office and the other sign shop owner wouldn't even tell me hello in the waiting room then did her best to make me look like I didn't know what I was talking about in the meeting (which didn't work).......if you advertise christian you should act the part also.
-------------------- Mark Perkins Performance Signs & Graphics Eunice, Louisiana "The heart of Cajun Country" Posts: 506 | From: Eunice Louisiana 70535 | Registered: Nov 1998
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As Ryan said, I do use it on my stuff. I am grateful for the change that my faith has brought about in my life. I would not be married or have three beautiful daughters if it were not for my changing. I would be in prison or dead. I don't use the symbol as a way of bringing in business. I have never considered it to be a red flag to some people. Maybe it is because of where I live that I haven't thought of it that way. I know all of the things that I have done in my past, and I don't have the right to criticize anyone for what they do. I was shown grace for my mistakes and I try to do the same to others.
You write beautifully. Your words conjure up vivid images and are very effective in painting a lovely picture. All the adjectives are in the right places!!
I know that has nothing to do with this post, but sir, you have a great way of crafting a small story - and making it more grand than its' size or content. Unless, of course, your Cordon Bleah story belongs to another. I'm no great historian of literature - but I do know when something is well written. I'm just never sure who might have written it!!! But it sure sounds like your personal story - and your words. "Spot on" - as you would say cross the waves.
Kudos again. I'd love to read more things you may have written.
(Re: the original post: I like what Ray Chapman said)
-------------------- Jay Allen ShawCraft Sign Co. Machesney Park, IL jallen222@aol.com http://www.shawcraft.com/
"The object of the superior man is truth." -Confucius Posts: 1285 | From: Machesney Park, IL, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Jay ya beat me to it. I found Arthur's story just delicious. And it was about a fish! So I guess it belonged here. As for the fish symbol, I try to give everyone a chance. I have been ripped off by both Christians and Atheists alike. I admit to being turned off when someone uses anything as a bargaining tool whether it's a fish or being a single mom. Love...JILL
-------------------- That is like a Mr. Potato Head with all the pieces in the wrong place. -Russ McMullin Posts: 8834 | From: Butler, PA, USA | Registered: Jan 2001
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A relative of mine has long used fish symbols crosses, bumper stickers etc. for personal gain, or maybe he just doesn't know any better. But he is deceptive in his business dealings and tries to use religion as a front. But, some folks obviously have good intentions with their display of symbols.
This is what I always thought the fish symbol was supposed to represent: M't:4:18: And Jesus, walking by the sea of Galilee, saw two brethren, Simon called Peter, and Andrew his brother, casting a net into the sea: for they were fishers. M't:4:19: And he saith unto them, Follow me, and I will make you fishers of men.
He's talking about winning souls and I think any significance of "fish" ends right there. Maybe I'm wrong but I also haven't found anywhere where he told us to wear crosses, fish, bumper stickers or anything else to show our faith. He did say: M't:5:16: Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven. That's a little harder to do sometimes.
Here is a little history of the fish symbol. Some things here that I didn't know. Take it for what it's worth. http://www.aveyinc.com/fish.htm
I would put a fish on someone's sign if they asked and wouldn't beat on them for it. It's not that big a deal. But when someone is KNOWINGLY using religion to promote their business, that is really sad.
[ March 11, 2004, 10:20 AM: Message edited by: Wayne Webb ]
-------------------- Wayne Webb Webb Signworks Chipley, FL 850.638.9329 wayne@webbsignworks.com Posts: 7404 | From: Chipley,Florida,United States | Registered: Oct 1999
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Bill Modzell - Now there's a perfect story and example. Beautiful post. Makes we wish you were my neighbor.
See, here's the thing...like Tasmus was pointing out:
Christians are NOT perfect human beings. We suffer from the same shortcomings and temptations as any one else...and probably more so than non-Christians as the little guy with the pitchfork is trying especially hard to try and sidetrack us from being a good testimony. If our Christian example can be compromised, then we become an ineffective testimony for non believers, thus chalking up the score on the side of the Bad Guy.
I think this bears out in a lot of the anti-christian posts. Hey, if one person becomes a Christian believer in Christ, but the devil can work on his weaknesses and turn him into a bad witness that turns 10 people away from the faith, then the devil is winning the numbers game.
The fact is that God says we have ALL come short of the glory of God.....and becoming a Christian is the answer, but by no means exempts us [Christians] from temptations and failures.
So for the record...we as Christians WILL indeed fail to live up to the perfect standard of Jesus...but we keep trying and in His eyes have. That's why he died on the cross.
We simply need to believe, and work hard toward becoming the perfect example of Jesus, forgive others, love all, and ask forgiveness when we in fact fail - - and then try to get back on course.
Yes, there is a crook around every corner that will manipulate people for there own reasons by taking advantage of their beliefs or posing as a believer to gain their trust to set up the "con".
I'd hate to be that kind of imposter when all is said and done and they stand face to face with God almighty.
I think many people love to hear the stories of Christians who have failed the test of morality because it gives them an excuse to justify the denial of God and his Son and continue living the life as they see fit.
That's ok, as God clearly stated that he gives man a "free will" to choose God or not. Man clearly has it within his power to decide whether or not he wants to be alienated from God. The personal relationship comes out of the freedom of choice...to accept His love and His gift.
That's my take on the hypocrisy stance....When I hear the copout that Christians are hypocrites...I think, "well, maybe you should join...we could always use a few more." The point being that Christians aren't the only hypocrites...everyone is.
But yes, we should strive harder.
The fish thing? Well, I just put it and John 3:16 on my business card....really, really small in the bottom corner. I also put the American flag with "Support our Troops" in the other corner really small...that's who I am. I will treat people honestly and do a good job. Hopefully people won't be offended or turned off by those small symbols. If they are, that is their issue to deal with.
To "run away from" any business that displays a fish is kind of a lark. I think it might have more to do with not wanting to be in any way connected or confronted with the religious faith than it does with the excuse that "Christians will screw ya more than anyone else" theory. Hey, if you don't hang around or do business for/with Christians then you don't have to confront the questions everyone eventually has to answer: Why was I created? Is there a God? If there is, what is God's purpose for my life? Am I willing to act on my faith?
And to answer Kim Z's posts....God petitions believers to spread the "Good News" of Jesus resurrection. That is why we feel compelled to "talk about it". God wants us to share our beliefs and not be ashamed or selfish with what we believe to be true. People can see the fish and ask questions about it or not. I think it's not that confrontational.
I don't put the symbol on my cars or other Christian bumper stickers because I know I am weak in the area of "road ettiquitte" (sp?)...and I don't want to give anyone an excuse to dis the Christian faith if I have a bad day and cut someone off in traffic.
posted
Many years ago as an apprentice for a shop in Mountain View, Ca, I overheard a chat between the owner and a priest who was complaining about a sign that had been done 15 yrs earlier which was in disrepair and the priest demanded the sign be redone at no charge as it should have been guaranteed for life. The owner quickly replied... "I'll be at your church sunday morning and I want a guarantee that I"ll go to heaven from that one visit!" That was the last of the priests' complaints.
P.S. I know how to fish and there is always a pole in the boat for him.
-------------------- Jack Wills Studio Design Works 1465 E.Hidalgo Circle Nye Beach / Newport, OR Posts: 2914 | From: Rocklin, CA. USA | Registered: Dec 1998
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My clientele is predomininatly faith based organizations, churches and such. The fish symbol (or other symol) is used in some sort of fashion in many of these instances. As far as Sonny's original post- using it in an advertisement for say a photographer, or a plumbing company- which I have had to do- I would try to steer them away from using it. My OPINION is If you are of any "devout faith" you shouldn't have to plaster it everywhere for people to notice, the way you live your faith should be more than enough advertising. As far as a fish story, here's a stinky one- We used to do work for Shephard's Guide- which uses the premise of "christian" businesses advertising and doing business with other "christian" businesses. I have no problem with their mission or their motives, and I think they do a pretty good job. But, I had a former employer who advertised thru them, he was the most corrupt and dishonest man I have ever been around, he blatently lied on the application just to be able to advertise to targeted churches and organizations, and they didn't catch on to him, they just took his word- which wasn't worth much!
-------------------- Michael Clanton Clanton Graphics/ Blackberry 19 Studio 1933 Blackberry Conway AR 72034 501-505-6794 clantongraphics@yahoo.com Posts: 1736 | From: Conway Arkansas | Registered: Oct 2001
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I also have to agree with Jay & Jill. (Having appreciated & complimented Arthur's writing ability in the past I would very much expect him to be the author of that prose)Thank you for that comic relief in this thread.
I will add that I find Tasmus's comments here & in the recent "Passion" thread to be quite confrontational, & egotistical. The manner of pride & self worth in showing off the pedestal of piety is almost as disgusting as the personal attacks in the name of defending one faith. (hey, maybe this is a personal attack too, but I'm not going to mask it as being faith based)
In a direct reply to Sonny's specific question, Kimberly simply stated her policy:
quote: I would emphatically NOT patronize a business that uses their religion to advertise.
Tasmus, for her to recieve a response like:
quote: that is SOME BIG chip you have on your shoulder against people of faith....
is almost in itself a definition of "chip on the shoulder" in it's way of taking offense from out in left field, as if her comments had your name on them.
...you go on to say:
quote: my only ONLY point is that I think it is a tad bigoted to say you will NEVER do business with one who displays that symbol
..to me calling someone a bigot is a personal attack, furthermore, she didnt say she would "NEVER do business with one who displays that symbol " anyway... she said one who "uses their religion to advertise" BIG DIFFERENCE!!! & besides that is HER policy, & HER opinion... if you want to trust fish ads... go trust them... others shouldn't have to take your insults if they choose not to.
Todd, although you lead in with a reference to Tasmus's posts I find your post much more palatable.
To your comment:
quote: I think it might have more to do with not wanting to be in any way connected or confronted with the religious faith than it does with the excuse that "Christians will screw ya more than anyone else" theory.
I think a major point is being missed by some Christians who are letting their defensiveness interfere with their judgement. I don't think anyone is saying "Christians will screw ya more than anyone else" I think the people going to great lengths to wrap themselves in sheeps clothing (or lambs) are probably NOT SHEEP!!!
Also, using
quote: "the little guy with the pitchfork is trying especially hard to try and sidetrack us"
as an excuse for christians suffering from more shortcomings and temptations then any one else...
I must say that is slightly humerous to me.
Before I get flamed (again) as a non-believer... I am a Christian, & I reserve the right to differ in my perceptions of how to walk the walk & when or weather to wave my faith flag.
posted
my van has a PEACE SYMBOL on it.....along with SAVE THE WHALES, OWLS, SEALS and RAIN FORESTS!!! now whos to say iam not doing the lords work? hehehehehe. ive had bad dealings with some churchs since i been here...they DEMAND that i give them special treatment......but i never sucumb. and i do a lot of signs for 4-5 churches that never even try to get me to there services. the key here folks is called DISCERNMENT. there are bad people and good people..some are gods people and some arent.....YOU NEED TO BE ABLE TO DISCERN who they are....this one of the many god givin talents......use it.
-------------------- joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-637-1519 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
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Earlier, the Shepherd's Guide was mentioned; that's a Christian yellow pages book.
For five years I did all the ad design and book layout (full prepress) for the local Shepherd's Guide.
I found it very interesting that the local publisher had horrendous problems with the advertisers not paying for their ads.
In addition, one of the advertisers offered to trade some plumbing repairs for changes to his truck lettering; one day while he did the work on my house I did the truck lettering. Halfway through the job he got called away on an emergency; he never showed up to finish the work, and I had to call another plumber to clean up behind him.
-------------------- Best Regards, Mark Smith EstiMate Sign Pricing Software It's Not Luck. It's EstiMate.™ http://www.EstiMateSoftware.com 1-888-304-3300 Posts: 724 | From: Asheville, NC, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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All I have to say is--"I apologize...to you and to anyone else who percieved my comments as arrogant. Furthest thing from my mind--
As for them being confrontational--yep, they certainly were, and I am in good company--that kinda stuff is what got Jesus killed in the first place.
Kimberly and I had a private dialogue about the issue and are amicable with one another, and it is funny that YOU seemed to be more offended by what I had to say than she was. WAAAY more.
But like I said, I apologize if I came across as arrogant--if you knew me you would know that isn't me at all.
To me though, confronting BIGOTRY and calling someone "BIGOT" as a name....are two different things. I am not going to apologize for addressing that. I believe it was the truth, and in a public forum I think I was in my rights to address it.
I did not want to offend anyone--merely illuminate. Do with that what you will.
I would disagree, personally, with a few of your statements...but wholeheartedly appreciate your input. Discussion is a good thing.
Imagine how tough it must be for the various factions in Iraq to have just passed an interim constitution! That took almost a miracle based on the extreme differences in opinion there...
I think there was definately a "tone" in the " I would emphatically NOT patronize a business that uses their religion to advertise" line.
To me, that says, "Hey, they say in their ad that the restaurant (or whatever) is Christian owned and operated...there's no way that I'm going to go mingle with THOSE kind of people." What else could it mean? But if someone has that opinion, that is definately their prerogative. But I really don't see Tasmus post as any more confrontational than the opposing view. Maybe a few words were a little more edgy than he'd like to have used.
My statement, "the little guy with the pitchfork is trying especially hard to try and sidetrack us" is not used at all as an excuse to poor behavior, but is in my experience, a fact that being a Christian doesn't make you immune from the Devil's challenges, but actually brings on an increase. I personally believe that Satan strives especially hard to minimize the impact and testimony of Christians in an attempt to neutralize their impact on the unsaved.
Let's look at it from this example: Michael Jordon was unquestionably the premier basketball player and carried the Bulls. Let's say he is playing the Jazz for the Championship. Now if the Jazz coach is smart, he's going to put full court pressure on Jordon as well as double teaming him in the final moments of a tied game...a game which will decide the outcome of the Championship.
The same with Satan...minimize the effectiveness of the Christian and you win the game. Full court press on his weaknesses, disillusion him, make him fail and take away his passion. Hold him up to public humiliation.
I truly believe there is a major battle going on between the realms of good and evil. No excuse...just a reality in my estimation, which simply means that as Christians we must be ever vigilant and watchful of our motives, actions, dimeanor, and all aspects of our lives as the way we live is constantly scrutinized by the unsaved. And as well we should strive to live a good example...a life that in and of itself is a witness to others of the life changing power of Christ.
Alas, we stumble and fail along the way. We must remind ourselves that almost all of the Bible characters were flawed individuals. And this is part of the beauty of the message, that God can and does forgive and use flawed people to advance his kingdom.
I have personally witnessed many instances of people that are quick to seize upon the "hypocrisy" theory when they view a Christian doing something un-Christ like. They will often say, "That's why I don't go to church, why would I want to be like THEM?!"
And to that end, Tasmus is perhaps bluntly right in equating that to a type of bigotry. You see, it is a self satisfying means of justifying a person's refusal of anything religious. It's something tangible they can point at. Trouble is, they are looking at people as being Gods. People are not perfect, and they certainly aren't God.
The correct approach to reacting to a Christians imperfections is to go to that Christian and confront them directly about their action. They could say, "Hey, why did you take my sign, but haven't paid me? I'm not a Christian and it really makes me question the validity of the Christian faith to see you treat people this way."
Now trust me, that would make most Christians come to an immediate realization of their actions and would probably result in a change of behavior, a request for forgiveness and a quick remedial action.
But that usually doesn't happen because most people are more than content to point a finger and steer clear from any religious involvement because, let's face it....it would challenge them to examine their life based on the spiritual realm, and they just don't want to go there.
In some people's minds, the viewing of a Christian Fish on a sign, a bumper, or a business card instantly evokes a negative opionion of it's owner. This is regretable, and speaks to how many Christians should re-evaluate the prideful arrogance they may exude or the ways in which they conduct their lives in the ever watching view of the secular world.
I always liked the bumper sticker that was the antithesis to the "Christians think nobody but they are perfect" argument: "Christians aren't perfect...just forgiven." This is the cruxt of the issue. "Fish" people are not, perfect people...but because we're believers in what Christ did on the cross for us, we are forgiven and saved. This DOES NOT give us the license to go on in our sin filled ways though...which God clearly cautions us against.
But I wouldn't treat every Christian entity as one to be suspicious of to the extent that I would not patronize their business or suspect they will try and squirm out of paying for a commissioned sign. That's my view from the religious side...hope it helps.
posted
Sonny, I would recommend NOT using the fish but ultimately the customer has the deciding call. It's their business and it's their decision how they choose to run it.
Now, I think using any religious symbol is just a way to proclaim that you are a "good christian". As for those people who insist on going around proclaiming themselves as good christians, they are the LAST person anyone would consider a good christian. I often wonder if these self-proclaimers who can not hold an intelligent religious conversation but can merely thump a bible and quotes lines from it are trying to convince me or themselves that they are a good christian. Memorizing lines, isn't that what actors do?
I've seen some comments here where people seem to think if a person is a christian they are more trustworthy, etc. I find it a shame that a person is judged by what religion they claim to believe in than by who they are as a person.
I too would bypass a company using a religious icon in their ad. I think religion and business should be seperate and I do not allow anyone to attempt to force their beliefs on me.
Sincerely, a self-proclaimed NON-christian.
-------------------- Chris Welker Wildfire Signs Indiana, Pa Posts: 4254 | From: Indiana, PA | Registered: Mar 2001
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The Mayor wanted to keep this about the original questions, I urged Christians to hold their words, Jesus said: "Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called the children of God."
I think there are two reasons people are resentful of Christians, one being previous experiences with people that took His name in vain, and the other being as was mentioned before, in the spiritual realm. If it's the latter, then Christians will do well to remember the verse that says: "For we wrestle not with FLESH AND BLOOD, but with..." So we have little business arguing this topic.
Please walk carefully bretheren.
[ March 10, 2004, 05:15 PM: Message edited by: James Donahue ]
-------------------- James Donahue Donahue Sign Arts 1851 E. Union Valley Rd. Seymour TN. (865) 577-3365 brushman@nxs.net
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what's for lunch, Benjamin Franklin Posts: 2057 | From: 1033 W. Union Valley Rd. | Registered: Feb 2003
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Just wanted to thank Jay, Jill and Doug for their extremely kind words and their indulgence in allowing me to shift the ground for a moment or two. Jay I'd be happy to send you a few other jottings if you like, though they are mainly angling related. Perhaps you wouldn't mind e-mailing (in case you were just being polite)
-------------------- Arthur Vanson Bucks Signs Chesham, Buckinghamshire, England arthur@buckssigns.co.uk -------------------- Posts: 805 | From: Chesham, Bucks, England | Registered: Mar 2002
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Thanks to everyone that contributed, it has been an enlightening post for the most part, to date.
1. While leaning towards a “no”, I can not in good conscience give a blanket “Yes” or “No” answer to this question. The answer, for me, would depend on variables relative to the uniqueness of the situation and couldn’t be answered in the affirmative or thumbs down “all” the time.
2. I prefer to utilize the services of those I believe to be competent and provide what I assess to be a fair and reasonable value that will, in return, be satisfied by my hard earned dollars. If this person or company uses the “fish” as part of branding or advertising, so be it. It is not viewed as a deterrent nor is it a stimulant. I perceive it like an ISA, USSC, or NFIB logo or graphic being utilized.
3. Yep, I caught one once and it was “this” big! No, really, it was!
In my response to question number two, I associate the “fish” with any additional branding that may be used. If “you” had a bad or less then desirable dealing with a sign shop that displayed the ISA (International Sign Association) “mark”, would you never entertain doing business with any other ISA member? Or substitute the USSC (United States Sign Council) badge. What about a larger scale, national entity like NFIB (National Federation of Independent Business). Would a bad transaction with one of their members ruin the possibility for any other “identified” NFIB member to possibly conduct business with you?
I have offended others in the past and I assure it it will happen again. I “hope” those that I have and will offend don’t hold it against others that use or associate with Gerber, CADlink, Adobe, Microsoft, 3M, Avery, OraCal, X-Acto, 1 Shot, USSC, etc…
-------------------- Bob Gilliland InKnowVative Communications Harrisburg PA, USA
"The U.S. Constitution doesn't guarantee happiness, only the pursuit of it. You have to catch up with it yourself." Benjamin Franklin Posts: 642 | From: Harrisburg, PA, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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This has been a good dialog both directions. I too don't appreciate "Christians" walking in and expecting a discount even though I often do help out churches a bit on my pricing.
It really upsets me to hear about people parading their faith and than basically doing inferior work.
We should be doing the best work with the highest quality products and giving the best service. That's our calling and our responsibility even though we all fall short of it at times. I wish every one of you that has been burnt by a Christian could forward this whole dialog to them and let them see what their "witness" is accomplishing.
Arthur, I wish I could come fish with you. I did start off in the direction of fish biologist, (ichtyologist, sound familiar?), in college but got sidetracked in a printmaking class and the rest is history. I still have aquariums and go fishing whenever I can. Here we use chubs for bait though. ;-)
-------------------- Bill Modzel Mod-Zel screen Printing Traverse city, MI modzel@sbcglobal.net Posts: 1357 | From: Traverse City, MI | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
1. Would you recommend using the symbol in advertising?
No, I would not "recommend" the symbol. In Sonny's case, the symbol is requested by the customer. I don't think it would be the first thing that would come to mind for artwork for a landscaper, so I doubt it would have crossed my mind.
2. Do you utilize someone's service because they use the fish?
Nope. I utilize someone's service for the same reason they hire me...based on need, price and reputation for good work in their field. Religion has nothing to do with it. I'm a Catholic by my upbringing, but I've never felt that the "fish" ever swayed my decision either way when I'm hiring a landscaper.
3. Do you have any "fish stories"?
Yup.
The first thing I ever caught with a fishing pole was a butt ugly river eel about 4 feet long. It was taller than I was at age 5 and I have never before or since run so fast in my life...(my Dad still grins every time he remembers that day... )
-------------------- Ray Rheaume Rapidfire Design 543 Brushwood Road North Haverhill, NH 03774 rapidfiredesign@hotmail.com 603-787-6803
I like my paint shaken, not stirred. Posts: 5648 | From: North Haverhill, New Hampshire | Registered: Apr 2003
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Tasmus, your apology is accepted (& I know if we cross paths at a meet someday, arrogance or egotism is the last thing I would expect from either of us, though I'm guilty of both quite often) I also will concede to your point on the difference between identifying a comment as "a tad bigoted" rather then labeling a person. Since I thought your quote was close labeling a person, & in fact was a mis-quote, I still consider it an unjust response, but its true you did not call anyone a bigot.
In a final comment in the defense of remarks like Kimberly's If someone said "How do you feel about christians" & I said I emphatically would NOT deal with them if they display a fish... that IMO would be rather bigoted, BUT if Sonny specifically asked us:
quote:1. Would you recommend using the symbol in advertising? 2. Do you utilize someone's service because they use the fish?
then, in context, I see nothing offensive or judgemental in such a reply.
Todd, I agree that discussion is a great thing, & your postings here, as always, are very well spoken. I have one comment that comes to mind in response to this condensed quote:
quote: ...as Christians we must be ever vigilant and watchful of our motives, actions, dimeanor ...as the way we live is constantly scrutinized by the unsaved.
We don't know who is saved & who isn't. For that matter anyone can call themselves a Christian, but IMO, in the truest sense of the term, we don't know who really is a Christian either. I think if everyone treated one another like Christ would... we wouldn't need Christianity or church.
My religious views are no more approproate here then anyone elses (which is not at all) but a very brief excerpt would be this. I don't believe that an isolated cluster of humanity in a remote area that somehow failed to learn of christianity but chose a life of good over evil would be "unsaved"
posted
I know that I said I was going to butt out of this but I just wanted to make a couple of comments...
If someone is a landscaper and is advertising their landscaping business - why would they have something other than info about landscaping on there? By having something else on there (religion, politics, sports, whatever) it makes me wonder if his landscaping isn't good enough to stand on its own.
Doug - Thank you very much for the support.
Donald said something about geography that really made me think. I believe that geographical location might have a great deal to do with this. In the Southern US and SouthEastern US, religion is a big part of the culture as a whole. Much more so than the North East or out on the West Coast. Your church is an intergal part of your life, your socialization, your world. It's not so much so out here.
In that case, someone using the fish symbol in advertising in the South for example, that might be much more common than we might see here.
-------------------- Kimberly Zanetti Purcell www.amethystProductivity.com Folsom, CA email: Kimberly@AmethystProductivity.com
“Organizing is what you do before you do something, so that when you do it, it is not all mixed up.” AA Milne Posts: 3722 | From: Folsom, CA | Registered: Dec 2001
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Damn it to hell I thought I could resist the urge to comment on this topic. As a devout heathen atheist, I could care less what someone wants on there sign. You pay me the money and I'll paint naked chickens on your sign for all I care.
It’s funny. I don't believe in God yet I did five awesome church signs this year. I know one thing for sure, churches have all the money and I'll gladly take it as it comes along.
I've done signs with the fish and could care less. I don’t see what the fish symbol and automotive repair have in common but what the hell. My design and the customer paid for it. No problem. Everyone’s happy.
I have to admit to one thing however. I display the fish here in my shop. It’s a picture of me with the 536lb. giant blue fin tuna I caught. I sold that sucker for $1500 to some Japanese buyers who worshipped my fish in Tokyo for sushi!
-------------------- Bob Stephens Skywatch Signs Zephyrhills, FL
posted
I guess it does look like a broken cross, sort of. Actually, the peace symbol and the cross have nothing to do with each other.
Here are some words from the designer of the peace symbol:
quote:...the symbol incorporated the semaphore letters N(uclear) and D(isarmament)...I drew myself: the representative of an individual in despair, with hands palm outstretched outwards and downwards in the manner of Goya’s peasant before the firing squad. I formalised the drawing into a line and put a circle round it
posted
I guess I put the fish on my business card more as a subtle way to witness/make known my faith WITHOUT thumping someone over the head with a high-pressure biblical onslaught. It's simply there, and if someone asks about it I will give them a simple, brief witness of what God has done in my life. Not a long winded finger pointing tirade.
quote: I think if everyone treated one another like Christ would... we wouldn't need Christianity or church.
Doug - I believe this is partially right. Treating people like Christ would is the "works" part .... believing that Christ died on the cross to pay for our sins is the Christianity part which I do believe we need.
Church is mostly a way to grow and be encouraged by fellow believers. Say a person becomes a Christian, but then decides to never go to church. He is handicapping himself in that he has no mature guidance and will tend to not grow in spiritual knowledge and will lack a support system. It would be kind of like an alcoholic deciding to quit drinking but never going to AA meetings. His chance of a successful change of lifestyle will be greatly hindered.
Regarding the tribesmen that are so remotely located that they never hear the literal word:
I don't know....all I can say is that these people invariably devise a religion that involves a creator outside of themselves. And I believe that God has the power to penetrate his word wherever he wants in ways we probably don't know about. At some point I have to say that God has a plan, he knows his plan, he is way smarter than me. I am not God. I trust that God will work his plan in the way he sees best throughout the world to those we might consider remote.
I really don't think most people displaying the "fish" are doing so to proclaim their "Christian superiority" but simply use it as a outward declaration of their love for Christ. The thought that someone uses it to say, "I'm better than you" is kind of a hostile reaction in my opinion.
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quote: I often wonder if these self-proclaimers who can not hold an intelligent religious conversation but can merely thump a bible and quotes lines from it are trying to convince me or themselves that they are a good christian. Memorizing lines, isn't that what actors do?
Kissy, the main reasons for memorizing bible verses are these:
1.) Wisdom - Like anything, the more you are informed about a particular subject, the more intelligently you can answer questions when they are posed accurately as God intended. If you had a passion or desire to learn how to do the fancy handpainted pinstripes and you asked a pro, and he gave you false information...it could cause you frustration, a feeling of failure and ultimately could make you lose interest. 2Timothy 2:15 says, "Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a workman who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth."
2. Comfort - When you are alone, without reference to the Bible for hopeful passages, inspiration, etc....if you know scripture by heart you can think on comforting passages to give you assurance and hope. As an example, let's use Sen John McCain, who was shot down in Vietnam in 1967 and held a POW for 5 1/2 years, much of it in solitary confinement. It could be a great comfort to a person in this extreme predicament to have the comfort of Jesus words memorized, such as the passage, "Though I am surrounded by troubles, you will gring me safely through them. You will clench your fist against my angry enemies! Your power will save me." Psalm 138:7
3.) Assurance - Say you are a Christian but feeling unsure about your worthiness in God's eyes, which we Christians sometimes stress over. If you had memorized this verse, it could help shore up your spirits, "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God." Ephesians 2:8
and there are many other reasons. Not just to go around thumping people and feeding an ego.
To me, the "fish" is a symbol of hope beyond the grave...and a statement of faith. It's not at all a billyclub.
So, I have hope and assurance through my faith in a life beyond this brief time on earth. Without it, life would hold no meaning...no purpose and a perpetual source of anguish wondering when the literal end will come. I have the hope and faith that I will be reborn into an eternity with a heavenly father, and Jesus at his side.
The "fish" is a symbol...like the cross is a symbol. It can and unfortunately will be used inappropriately by some, but it shouldn't color our opinions on everyone.
-------------------- Todd Gill Outside The Lines Potterville, MI Posts: 7792 | From: Potterville, MI | Registered: Dec 2001
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I myself am a member of the "seventh day recreationalists" We too see fish but is only when our kayaks turn upsidedown in the river. If there is a God, I feel much closer to him while on the river and spending time with nature. As for dealing with religion and business, I don't. I left my religion when it became a business.
-------------------- Rob Larkham Sign Techniques Inc. Chicopee, Ma Posts: 607 | From: Chester, Ma. | Registered: Apr 2002
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Doug--just one comment about those remote tribes and such...here is a verse or two you may wanna consider:
Romans 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; 13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. 14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: 15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;) 16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.
In other words...and this is my take on this.."those that never have been given the opportunity to hear the gospel or know the Lord who follow what is right with their heart anyway will be judged by their actions accordingly...no sent defacto to hell, the rest of us will be dealt with based on what we have done with what we know, namely what our responses are to the person of Jesus Christ"
I guarantee this though, we sure as heck ain't gonna be judged on our relative "fishy-ness"
posted
The fish symbol has been around a long time- do a search for "vesica piscis" to learn a lot of interesting history. Some of it not suitable for children.
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It was taller than I was at age 5 and I have never before or since run so fast in my life...(my Dad still grins every time he remembers that day... 
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