I've been wondering. I'm pretty new to the signbiz and I don't come in contact with too many sign painters. I see stuff on here that I really like and that i know I could produce if only the customer had something to look at to give them ideas. Ok, ok let me get right to it. Have any of you ever taken pictures from magazines or the internet and put them in your portfolio (not to say you did them to people) but to give customers more ideas so you can sell work that you'd like to do but havent had the opportunity to yet. Well, I have and it always kind of bothered me when a potential customer asks me "did you do all of these? And i'd say something like "I can do a sign just like the ones you see here" of course I only used a few, but I always felt odd about it like I should have gotten permission first or something.
I'd love to hear your thoughts
[ February 17, 2007, 09:05 PM: Message edited by: Dawud Shaheed ]
Posted by Curtis hammond (Member # 2170) on :
Lots of different bizzes use sample pages to show what can be done. However, they are descrbed as samples. Not as your portfolio.
Posted by Dave Sherby (Member # 698) on :
My opinion... Take the time to make a few samples that shows first hand what YOU can make. They don't have to be huge. A sample on the wall will sell a sign before a picture on a web page anyway. Then you have first hand proof you can do it.
Posted by David Harding (Member # 108) on :
For ideas, you might try showing them the Portfolio edition of Sign Business, the Commercial Contest edition of Signs of the Times, or some issues of SignCraft.
If they pick a concept out of your field of expertise, you know where to get the help to do it.
I've also had customers show me pictures of signs they liked and every time, there were photos of my signs in there. That usually ends up as an easy sell. Of course, I've been in the business since slightly after dirt was invented.
Edited to add to what Dave Sherby said:
Samples are wonderful sales aids. Many processes and finishes cannot be adequately portrayed in photos. Making the sample gives you some practice as well.
When I first started doing sandblasted signs in the mid '70s, I made some samples. I never failed to sell one when I could show them first hand what it looked like. At that time, there weren't too many around and describing one or showing a photo just didn't do the trick.
[ February 17, 2007, 09:36 PM: Message edited by: David Harding ]
Posted by Dan Antonelli (Member # 86) on :
As the recipient of many images being 'borrowed' off of our site and presented as their own work, I can say, while flattering, it usually doesn't make me too happy. The next call is usually to my attorney, and the offender's ISP and them, which result in their site being taken down (ISP's are liable for copyright infringement on their servers so they don't screw around with that).
I've also had my company name, and my own name embedded into people's META and ALT content on their site. That doesn't make me or my attorney too happy either.
Make some of you're own portfolio pieces - and it will help you sell the type of work you really want to do.
[ February 17, 2007, 09:51 PM: Message edited by: Dan Antonelli ]
Posted by Dawud Shaheed (Member # 5719) on :
ok, so now I know not to use any of Dan's stuff. Scratch that idea.
Posted by Dawud Shaheed (Member # 5719) on :
seriously, though. I don't own a shop. I have a workshop and a truck. I don't get walk in customers. I go from door to door when I'm slow and the rest of the time is repeat business or word of mouth. I'm in a new area now and I'm not working off repeat business or word of mouth so, I've been thinking of beefing up my sales techniques. I think photo samples will be the way to go for me.
*Not yours though Dan.
Posted by W. R. Pickett (Member # 3842) on :
...N E V E R ! ...Displaying others work (in your portfolio is totally unethical! You will label yourself as the new HACK in town. If you are so new to the biz that you don't have any examples of your own stuff to show, get a job in a sign shop (until you are more experienced).
Posted by Rick Sacks (Member # 379) on :
If you ever show someone elses work, please, be certain to have their name on it displayed very obviously so as not to allow for any misleading info. It also needs to be clear that you didn't do it for their shop. Probably easiest to make some samples yourself that are your design.
I remember years back a well respected sign person moved to a new area and made a deal with a store to do a killer sign for free as a maens of getting his work displayed, with the condition that the price would never be divulged.
Posted by Frank Smith (Member # 146) on :
Dawud-
Lugging a portfolio around is time consuming and can be awkward. It should be good for drumming up work, but I remember going up and down Albany's main drag begging for sign jobs 25 years ago...
These days, the website does a lot of that work much easier, especially if you maintain the site yourself. It IS your portfolio and is seen at your customer's convenience while you are using the same time to be productive or with your family or get enough sleep.
I don't think you need a LOT of photos, but judging by your website, I think you should take a day and go around your area with a camera and get the BEST shots you can of your work. You don't need a lot of photos, just GREAT ones! A simple photo-editing program like MicroSoft's Picture-It (came with my computer) can brighten up, sharpen up photos. I like its edge-softening feature. On your site, less crowding and softer edges would keep the photos from competing against each other.
Oh yeah, just because you've moved, don't think it's hard to get good pics of your old work. Someone back there might do you a favor (or owe you one) and get some shots to you. Maybe some of your signs are on the web and you don't even know it- a lot of businesses put their storefronts and signs on their websites.
Good luck,
Posted by Dan Sawatzky (Member # 88) on :
I'm very proud of the work displayed in my portfolio and on our website. Its all the work we did in our own shop of course.
A portfolio is a display of one's own work. Its a showcase of what YOU can do. It is a wonderful and effective sales tool.
When we got our router I spent many months learning how to run it and honing my techniques. I did this by making samples for our walls. The better ones ended up in the portfolio and on the website too.
Although it hasn't happened often I get pretty upset when someone else claims our work or slides in on our hard earned representation - even by sly association.
I think it is unethical to have someone else's work in your portfolio unless it is labeled clearly as belonging to someone else and then only with their permission too which you wouldn't get from me for that purpose.
If you aren't really busy doing paying work, spend the time to do up some samples for your portfolio. If you are short on money paint a different sample on each side of the board. Take your pictures and repaint them again.
-grampa dan
Posted by Russ McMullin (Member # 5617) on :
I think it's unethical to put photographs of other people's work in your portfolio. Even if you say you didn't do the work, it gives the impression that you are somehow associated with it. I wouldn't want to see samples of my work in someone else's portfolio.
However, I don't see anything wrong with creating your own unique design first, and then showing the customer some examples from SignCraft that give a rough idea of how you plan to build it, or carve it, or color it, etc.
Also, make sure the photos you put in your portfolio are the best you can take. Some of the ones on your website are darkish and blurry.
[ February 18, 2007, 11:31 AM: Message edited by: Russ McMullin ]
Posted by David Harding (Member # 108) on :
Dawud,
I guess you can't use any of Canada Dan's stuff either!
Posted by Frank Smith (Member # 146) on :
Dawud-
Your site doesn't say copyright.
[ February 18, 2007, 03:08 PM: Message edited by: Frank Smith ]
Posted by Doug Allan (Member # 2247) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dan Sawatzky: When we got our router I spent many months learning how to run it and honing my techniques. I did this by making samples for our walls. The better ones ended up in the portfolio and on the website too.
...and on the cover of Signcraft!
I've proudly shown off the work of both Dan A. & Dan S. (and several others here)when showing my sign mags to customers... It's impressive enough to say that I participate in an on-line community where folks like these guys help share techniques & inspiration with guys like me.
I also had several dozen sign mags dating back from before my time, that were handed down to me, but in somewhat poor condition. I ended up cutting out dozens of my favorite images before handing down the remainder of those magazines to a newbie sign guy who was coming around a lot learning from me. I have my own 2 shelves full on mint condition mags now... but those old images are in an envelope & have been used to show clients for inspiring them to identify some design preferences to help narrow down what I should try to sell them.
Posted by Steve Eisenreich (Member # 1444) on :
I was thinking on the same line as Doug keep your portfolio seperate. Their are tons of books and magazines with designs even Dan A has a book in my collection.
Posted by Deri Russell (Member # 119) on :
Dawud- Not only do I think its unethical to show someone else's work in your portfolio I don't think much of someone who would even consider doing such a thing. Your "About" page on your web says you have been in business for over 10 years. Do you mean to tell me that in 10 years you don't have enough work to make your own portfolio? I'm sorry- that doesn't make much sense. Perhaps if you haven't had much business you should consider raising the bar of your business ethics instead of raising the bar of your work -with someone else's.
And before I get a barrage of emails about how I was mean to Dawud- consider his question. I think they call it karma.
Posted by Jon Aston (Member # 1725) on :
Putting other people's work "In your portfolio" is obviously wrong...because the phrase implies that you would pass the work off as your own, or that a prospective customer might reach that conclusion on their own.
I see no ethical problem whatsoever with hauling out an "Other people's work I admire" file, containing clippings from magazines or websites that clearly credit the signshop in question...and reviewing it with a customer. Why not? I might caution against creating expectations you can't personally fulfil, if there is any risk that you can't produce a similar look.
Posted by Ray Rheaume (Member # 3794) on :
A very wise art teacher once told me....
Your portfolio is a display not only of what you produce, but of how you have progressed.
Dawud, Building up a portfolio takes time. Showing that time can be a valuable asset in making an impression to a potential customer. Keeping some of your older work in it not only shows your improvement over the years, but dedication to your career choice. Although not my best work, I still have samples of older work in my portfolio to reflect those aspects.
IMHO, a person's portfolio is hallowed ground. It's an extension of the artist/creator and should never include the work of someone else. It's a misrepresentation of both you and the original artist.
If you're trying to open new doors and market different methods and materials, there are ample displays, samples, catalogs and examples available from manufacturers and suppliers. They can be shown SEPERATELY as needed.
Rapid
Posted by Frank Smith (Member # 146) on :
Deri- I think what Dawud did was neglect to make much of a portfolio because he had a local reputation, etc. Now that he's hundreds of miles from his old location, he doesn't have much to show...
Eventually, it'll balance out; we all need our portfolios, samples, sign magazines, etc. But, ultimately, it's up to us to take control of each situation and determine what will WORK for the client. Good quick sketching helps clinch the client's confidence. Just don't let go of more than you have to (including ideas) before you get a deposit.
Posted by Alicia B. Jennings (Member # 1272) on :
I actually have my customers bring me pics of what they think I could do. (ie Real Ghost Flames) Once I explain the process of how that job was done, then they understand a little more. Then I'll tell them how I could do a similar job, with the tools and skills I have to work with, and take it from there.
Posted by Deri Russell (Member # 119) on :
Frank, I don't think that's the case at all. What makes you think that? I have sent out probably 85% of my work with no pictures. Well too bad so sad for me. I lose. I suppose I could take some field trips some day and try to recapture some of the "lost pics". But I probably won't, because as time goes on I hope that my design skills are getting better- not staying the same. And I hope that my next sign will be a far better one than I produced 14 years ago when I started banging on doors for business.
Dawud says: "to give customers more ideas so you can sell work that you'd like to do but havent had the opportunity to yet" To me that says he has not done the calibre of work that he has put in his portfolio. Therefore it is not HIS portfolio. I think that's false advertising. Let's take a look at the signmakers in his area that have been there for years. Do you really think its fair that their new competition is portraying himself as a better designer/signmaker than he himself admits to being? Boy howdy, I tell you, he's lucky he doesn't move here. The customers would eat him up and spit him out! Particularly if he accidently put a sign/design in there that someone knew the real designer. It would be the END of his career as a signmaker. Small towns- large gossip! And what happens when he does land the job of his dreams? Now he has to produce the calibre of work he has portrayed himself as being capable of! So what now?
Your portfolio is not only a great advertising tool. It is a reflection of your life's work, as Rapid says. Mine is like my bible to me. I just can't comprehend putting someone else's work in there and claiming it as mine. There's just too many reasons not to.
Every signmaker has to start somewhere. We all paid our dues to get where we are. It takes work. SO WORK!
Posted by Jillbeans (Member # 1912) on :
There are one or two signs in my portfolio/online portfolio that I worked on with Stevo. He is going to put them on his site when he refabs it soon, and neither one of us cares.
But other than that, I would never use pix of someone else's work in my portfolio. That is misrepresentation of your own abilities. I have tons of Letterhead panels in my shop, but am quick to point out that they were gifts from friends. There are a few of my own there too.
I have heard that some people will not put out their portfolios at meets due to nefarious others who take pictures from them and put them into their own portfolios at home! And I'm sure these types do the same thing with websites that Dan Antonelli mentions.
Love....Jill
[ February 19, 2007, 12:34 PM: Message edited by: Jillbeans ]
Posted by Laura Butler (Member # 1830) on :
I dealt with a city a couple of years ago that had a committee of 3 or 4 and didn't know what they wanted their new park signs to look like. Nothing I suggested or showed them sparked an interest.
I finally showed them signs in SignCraft to see if they could get a better idea. This worked ...to a point. They found a sign that they liked and wanted theirs just like it. I let them know that there might be problems as the sign was copyrighted and we would have to get a signed release from the company to use their design.
I called the company and they were gracious enough to send a release. So everything worked out.
Posted by Si Allen (Member # 420) on :
Putting someone else's work in your portfoilio can be a bad problem for you!
Example:
many years ago a new window splasher was going around looking for work with a portfolio. His mistake was to call on one of my customers. My customer recognized my work in some of the pics and told him to come back on Saturday at 9:30 am. He then called me . I was there a bit early and parked out in back and we waited for him to show up.
I made him remove all my pics out of his book and warned him that IF he did it again, I would hunt him down and BREAK ALL HIS FINGERS!
Do I need to tell you that he decided to move away?
Posted by Mike Pipes (Member # 1573) on :
You need to build your own portfolio and put in things that you personally created. if you don't have much to show, you better get busy and start making some samples. Paint is cheap, and you can get a bunch of small samples out of a sheet of plywood or even coroplast or cardboard - anything you can use as a substrate to snap some photos, then repaint if you want. You could even make layered dimensional signs out of cheap stuff just for photo purposes. Maybe you include some hand drawn sketches and computer generated artwork as well to show versatility.
Now if you want to also carry around a separate "Idea Book" and include photos of ideas from sign magazines, fine but put the entire page from the mag into the book so there's no chance a potential client could think you produced the work. Just make sure you don't copy the work straight from the mag, just use the mags to generate some ideas and concepts and make sure you can actually produce the work you want to sell.
Posted by Rick Chavez (Member # 2146) on :
I agree that you never touch another designers portfolio in any way.
One thing you can do is what college grads do. All design grads have made up projects in thier portfolio in one form or another. That is how they get employed....by showing thier skills with exercises they did in college. Why not design conceptual projects? Another way of expanding your portfolio is showing your proposed work...the stuff that was not chosen. In a lot of cases that is the "better" work anyways...why not show it off! Concept and proposed work are your skills and your way of showing the clients the possibilities in your area of expertise. It's not cheating anyone and not leading a client on with your abilities. And most clients understand the idea of concept work and great work that was thrown away. As time goes on, you can replace your conceptual work with real projects but you may want to keep the proposed work to show the clients your process. A few years ago a client showed me a design that they wanted the style copied from. It was one of my favorite styles from my favorite designer at the time (the style is called "Bonehead") but they wanted me to pinch too much of the look. I told them to go to the design firm that did it. I could have done it, but why do that when someone was better than I was at it. I have a lot of books and magazines but the last thing I want is the client thumbing through by library asking for an certain look that another designer has perfected, I would just have the go to them. I don't sell font's, vinyl colors or catalog design, I supply solutions. Last thing I want is them going thrugh my font books, one-shot samples or my 3M vinyl catalog. I want them to be more interested in my process and the reason I have the process than just the pretty pictures...but if all they want to see are pretty picures than I want them to be mine.
Posted by jake snow (Member # 5889) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dawud Shaheed: ....... I see stuff on here that I really like and that i know I could produce if only the customer had something to look at to give them ideas......
Just checked out your web sight. Not quite sure what "stuff" that you are talking about as far as "you can do if only.....". But heres my take.
"Thinking" you can do it and "doing" it are different things. If you haven't done the kind of signs that you really want to do yet (because if you did you would already have a picture of it...right?), then you might want to make one before you tell a customer "Ya I can do that..". Samples, like said above can be produced on a smaller scale and done cheap(er). This, also noted above, gives your customer a look at what "YOU" can produce.
Not criticizing your work, but from what you have on your web page, your still "learning". And "ALL" of us are. Some have just been learning longer than others. Portfolios take a while to build up. At least pics of the "good stuff" that you would want to present.
There again, not sure what "stuff" you are wanting to sell. But you better make damn sure you can produce it before you sell it. Or you make yourself AND the trade look bad.
Golden rule....If you didn't design it, paint it or build it, then don't put it in your book. Because you'll just be lying to yourself and to your customer. And that my friend is not good biz.... Posted by Dawud Shaheed (Member # 5719) on :
For the record. EVERYTHING on my website is my work. I would never misrepresnt myself or my business in that manner. For the first 3 or 4 years of being in the sign biz I did only car lots , window lettering etc. Then when I decided to branch out doing other types of signs and businesses (like restaurants) I would find pictures of a window splash someone did for let's say Mc'donalds and approach Mcdonalds in my area and say "I can do something like this for you. Again, over the years I have weaned this practice out of my approach because I have built up my own portfolio. I do have my own portfolio and I use it. Again, i would not try to sell something I couldn't do and, I know I am still learning. There's a lot I learn from this board and from the people here. I respect your opinions on the sign biz, so let me clarify myself when I mentioned portfolio I did not mean my website portfolio. All of that is my work. I have however (for example) seen a window splash of a certain chain business (not in my area) and taken pictures of them to show the same chain in my area what I can do for them. Obviosly lying and telling them I did it when I know full well that I didn't do it is un ethical, but that's not what I was asking about.
I appreciate the feedback.
Posted by Dawud Shaheed (Member # 5719) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mike Pipes: Now if you want to also carry around a separate "Idea Book" and include photos of ideas from sign magazines, fine but put the entire page from the mag into the book so there's no chance a potential client could think you produced the work. Just make sure you don't copy the work straight from the mag, just use the mags to generate some ideas and concepts and make sure you can actually produce the work you want to sell.
thanks, Mike, that's pretty much what I was talking about, Now I don't feel like such a complete hack. Ah, we live and learn.
Posted by Ray Rheaume (Member # 3794) on :
"For the record. EVERYTHING on my website is my work. I would never misrepresnt myself or my business in that manner."
I guess that answers you own question. Rapid
Posted by Dawud Shaheed (Member # 5719) on :
You still don't get what I was saying, I guess, neither did Deri but a few heads on here have said that they do use others work as ideas, so, really my main mistake was saying the word "portfolio" in connection to using others work to inspire ideas in a potential customer.
It seems there's a clear divide on even using others work to give customers ideas so If a guy in La Mirada California was driving around with a signcraft magazine window splashing off of it, he could get his fingers broke for that, Jack. ya see? Oh well, clearly lying about what you've done is wrong, but using others work as a selling tool? And another thing to consider is a person may not even want to rip off a design, It may be that he is bidding on a housing development sign , but he has never done a housing development sign, so does that mean he can't do a housing development sign? Of course not. So, would it be unethical for him to show pictures of other housing development signs from signcraft or from letterhead.com or wherever to give the customer ideas on colors, shapes, etc???
Posted by David Schulz (Member # 6931) on :
I usually use whole signcraft magazines with post it notes on my favorites. We have a slideshow of finished projects on a lcd monitor on our front counter and a few samples on the walls. When I show anybody trade magazines I caution them that I can't make everything in there and that these are the work of the best in the business. People seem to appreciate my honesty about my skill level and still encourage me to experiment on their signs.
Posted by Rick Chavez (Member # 2146) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dawud Shaheed: So, would it be unethical for him to show pictures of other housing development signs from signcraft or from letterhead.com or wherever to give the customer ideas on colors, shapes, etc???
It would be unethical to show someone elses work prior to getting a contract or to attract a client. You are the designer, why give clients "ideas"? It's your job to come up with them. If you showed them signs you did not do once the contract is signed it is stilll leading them on, that is unethical to a lot of people. Once a contract is signed, It would be better if you designed a housing development sign and showed examples as how it holds up to similar projects...that is called research or justifying why you design the sign the way you did, but you should not ever take credit for the example signs. Otherwise build up your portfolio in other ways.
Not to get off the subject too much, but this is how serious a portfolio is. I have a lot of work I have done for other companies, work that I was involved from start to finish, yet I have no right to show it on my business portfolio. If I can't show my own work, how could I justify showing someone elses?
[ February 19, 2007, 11:34 PM: Message edited by: Rick Chavez ]
Posted by Ray Rheaume (Member # 3794) on :
Dawud,
I've sat back biting my lip on this one since it was first posted, but now the kid gloves are off.
What you are asking is if it is unethical to include another person's work into your portfolio. It's fu**ing theivery, a method of lying to a customer and outright fu**ing larceny plain and simple. If you can't do it, don't own it and didn't make it, it shouldn't be in there.
You want to know where the line is drawn? Figure out the difference between plaugurism and inspiration.
Yer kicking a dead horse here...it unethical. Nuff said. Defending yourself isn't making it any more right to do. Rapid
Posted by Dawud Shaheed (Member # 5719) on :
You still don't understand what I am saying to you Ray. I'm not defending anything I come here to learn and enjoy the craft of signmaking And your attitude is out of line. There's not just letterheads here, there's some big heads in here also. Whatever,man.
Posted by W. R. Pickett (Member # 3842) on :
...Go ahead dude, dig yourself a deeper hole.
Posted by Ray Rheaume (Member # 3794) on :
Okay...point for point.
"I'm pretty new to the signbiz..." According to your website, you have 10 years experience.
"Have any of you ever taken pictures from magazines or the internet and put them in your portfolio"...etc "Well, I have..."
Statement noted.
"I can do a sign just like the ones you see here" Proving that to a customer would require a sample of finished piece that you made.
"...let me clarify myself, when I mentioned portfolio I did not mean my website portfolio." I fail to see the difference between what you place on your website and how it differs from what you would include in a folder or photo book. Those are simply different forms of presenting your work as a portfolio.
"For the record. EVERYTHING on my website is my work. I would never misrepresnt myself or my business in that manner."
"I only used a few, but I always felt odd about it like I should have gotten permission first or something."
"If a guy in La Mirada California was driving around with a signcraft magazine window splashing off of it, he could get his fingers broke for that, Jack." No, but as mentioned, the person was including Si's work and claiming it as his own in his portfolio.
Dawud, You have admitted that you have practiced this in the past. Minimizing it by using words like "I only used a few" doesn't lessen it's ethical impact. Using even one piece from another artist in your portfolio is just as wrong as using five of them.
In all fairness... "my main mistake was saying the word "portfolio" in connection to using others work to inspire ideas in a potential customer." I won't disagree with that point at all. The separation of your portfolio from examples is the real key point here.
Inspiration you get from the work of others is a great thing. It drives you to exceed your own limitations. I would think taking that inspiration and adding it to you own design ideas can produce good results with the customer as well. Take that inspiration, work it over with your own style, and present THAT to the customer. If they like what they see, it opens the door to bigger and better things.
Rapid
Posted by Jon Jantz (Member # 6137) on :
I have a confession to make...
About 7 years back, I had never done a large lighted sign before, but having experience in welding, fabricating, concrete work etc. I knew I had the expertise to do it...
One day a Mobile Home Sales lot approached me about building them several lighted signs... the man showed up at the shop one day, and started asking questions, wanting different ideas for lighted signs. I told him up front it would be a new area for us but that I was sure we could do it because of my construction background...
Needing ideas, we started flipping through Sign Business magazines I had lieing on the front counter... now I'm not sure, but I don't think at any point he thought I did all the signs in those magazines... also, I'm not sure I wanted to do 20 different Photoshop fake designs to put in my 'PORTFOLIO' not even knowing what he had in mind...
So, calmly flipping through the magazines, without even a twinge of the guilt from the hellish and demonish action I'm committing, we found one he liked, I said... "yes, we can do something similar to that.."
I designed it up, and it ended up looking completely different, but he got the STYLE of sign that he saw in the magazine... sold 3 signs for $16,000 each and we completed them with extruded pan faces reverse painted, concrete work, posts and all.
Now in retrospect, I'm glad I did not read this post first... if he had come in asking about this sign, tries to reach for the magazines to explain what he has in mind, and I slap his hand with my yardstick and tell him "Sir, if we open this magazine, I can no longer ethically build you a sign" I'm sure I would have lost an almost $50,000 contract...
Or if he had shown up with a picture of another sign in his hand and told me, "I would like a sign like this" and I would have sadly had to tell him... "No, I cannot do a sign like that for you, it's been done by another sign shop, and therefore I'm not ethically allowed to create one similar to that..."
Pardon me, but what a bunch of freakin' bullcrap.
Posted by Frank Smith (Member # 146) on :
It's all one big happy mix of portfolio, samples and maybe a sign mag or two. I don't care to use the sign mags much because they tend to distract from what I want to produce, yet they help me gauge the client's reactions and preferences.
It's a lot more comfortable when I start thumbnail sketching the client's actual sign.
Posted by Neil D. Butler (Member # 661) on :
Jon You had me going there for a minute.. I don't think that there's anything wrong about showing a prospective customer a magazine and asking them is there anything in here that you like?, or anything in here that you had in mind? No I don't agree we should just copy it. No! We should never claim others Ideas as our own, or even give the impression, but getting motivated by others is not a crime.. we just might as well give up all the meets that everyone attends. And I'm not suggesting that anyone on here reads that into the original post... but showing customers other peoples work for Ideas is not wrong.. posting it on your website is, claiming it's yours is, showing it as an example of work that you'd like to try is'nt... as long as it's made clear that it's not yours. I guess we all agree on that.
Posted by Bobbie Rochow (Member # 3341) on :
Jon I am in TOTAL agreement with what you are saying. When I first started out, that is exactly what I did, I would go thru Signcrafts & find different styles & ideas, then I would start designing from the inspiration I got from other's work. I NEVER copied anyone's work, I always came out with something totally different than what I was studying.
And now, when my brain seems to be in "deep freeze", I go thru my old Signcrafts & boy do I get inspired! It thaws me out & gets me going!
I also once showed my customer/pastor pics of sandblasted dimensional residential signs that I thought were so beautiful, & he told what elements he liked best & I went from there. But his sign I produced looked NOTHING like the ones I showed him!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Posted by Bill Lynch (Member # 3815) on :
Thanks Jon, that's exactly my thoughts.
Posted by Jane Diaz (Member # 595) on :
To steal ideas from one person is plagiarism; to steal from many is research. Steven Wright I think you can only include what you DID in your portfolio or webpage. Anything else in unethical.
I AM confused here though, with the way you started this post with "Have any of you ever taken pictures from magazines or the internet and put them in your portfolio? Well, I have..." and then later get indignant because people are getting upset with the fact that you are doing that.
[ February 20, 2007, 03:41 PM: Message edited by: Jane Diaz ]
Posted by Russ McMullin (Member # 5617) on :
My understanding was that Dawud was trying find the proper way to generate new business, without being unethical. He even stated he felt bad about ways he had done it in the past, and it seemed to me he wanted to know what method others felt was best. I don't see a reason for this level of wrath and righteous indignation in his direction.
Posted by Jane Diaz (Member # 595) on :
I agree with you Russ, and that is why I am confused...It seemed like he said he DID use others work, and then later he said he didn't...I guess that is where I'm confused. He meant he didn't ANYMORE!
Posted by Raymond Chapman (Member # 361) on :
It all depends on what the meaning of "is" is.
Posted by Rick Chavez (Member # 2146) on :
I may have come off a little too passionate but at least I'm in good company......
I could re-word it but the point would be lost....I have quite a few books and mags myself and use them for inspiration and research on every sizable job I do.
What the hell, I'll give it a shot.... In my limited experience, most clients will not give a hoot who did what. Giving them magazines and books of other peoples work to thumb through prior to designing anything for them "could"...note I say "could".... compromise a sign persons position for doing original work in the clients and publics eye. I know we all do original work, but it may not look like it to the clients that you are trying to get paid enough to justify your original design.....
I'm sure there may be an interpreted twist in that comment but that is not what I'm trying to say but could care less how it reads since some people are prone to reading into things...
Posted by Dawud Shaheed (Member # 5719) on :
Not that I like public scrutiny because if I or any of us were TRULY being scrutinized we would find in ourselves in a bit of a mess, but to clarify things since my name has come up quite a bit here, Yes, I have used other peoples work as inspiration and even showed customers pictures of others work to generate ideas in their minds. It's clearly wrong to copy someone's design or claim you did something that you didn't do. I knew that when I made the first post. I apolagise for my poor choice of wording when I composed that post because it caused such a furor. I am glad though , that we had this discussion amongst ourselves because I learned how serious and important a persons design is. I never claimed anything I've ever shown a customer that wasn't mine to be mine. I want to set that straight. I'm new to much of the business and I haven't done much else other than window splashes, vehicle/ wall lettering, and mdo signs thats why I decided to post what I did, unfortunately , I didn't explain myself well enough in the beginning.
I received emails from some of you that were encouraging and even a phone call that I appreciated. And I'm not upset at a single one of you, I should've explained myself better in the first place.
Posted by Bobbie Rochow (Member # 3341) on :
Dawud, I have to tell you that you do better than many of us, not holding a grudge. I think to be honest, I would have been devestated to read some of the posts on this thread. (I have avery soft heart!)
I think you have shown honesty & yes, integrity, in explaining what you have done & asked how to do things right.
I sure hope you do good in your business. And I pray the Lord will give you such creativity & inspiration that you will not even need to glance at another sign mag for inspiration, it will all come from YOU.
Hope that was ok to say.
Posted by John Deaton (Member # 925) on :
In the front of my dirty little shop is a small showroom. ON the counter I have my portfolio, and everything in it is work that I did. I also have several issues of Signcraft laying there for people to look through to maybe see a style sign that they like. I never copy shapes or styles, but instead, take what they looked at and show them what I can do. Duwad, if you put pics of other peoples work in your portfolio, that was wrong. That you felt wrong is testament to the person you are. It is very unethical to pass off work done by someone else as your own, but you know that, and stated the fact that you knew it was wrong. I think it was a pretty good question to ask, and you got some great answers, and some not so great. Some of you people get your panties in a wad over the smallest sh**.
Posted by Deri Russell (Member # 119) on :
Ok look Dawud- I know you came here, the BB, for inspiration. So do we all. We also buy magazines and books for inspiration. I have a whole book shelf of them. If a client walks over to my bookcase and says "Hey can I look at these?" By all means, go right ahead. I've even had a client borrow some. I go through them when my creativity has hit a low. And I flip and flip and flip pages for hours ad nauseum. But as others here have pointed out the reason is to get the creative juices flowing. To look at great designs one right after another does improve your design. And that is always a good thing. When I first started going to sign meets there was always a portfolio table. And I spent most of my time sitting looking at portfolios. Good bad or indifferent it was very educational. And I always threw my humble little 'folio into the fray for others to look at too. But lately I have not seen as many portfolio tables. And it is because of missing pictures, and stolen designs. Pictures of signs done some time ago are very hard to replace, if not impossible. And that is just sad. Particularly at a gathering of Letterheads. Sign Magazines and Design books are there to inspire and enhance our trade. WE learn from them, not our clients. And they have contests and we learn. And they have how-to articles, and we learn. Not to mention the advertising. And you may look at a sign in them and say to yourself "geez- that navy, coffee and cream with the bright purple inline really stands out, I like that." And it sticks in your brain, and you learn. And you put a thread on the BB that has a heading Business Ethics Question and you learn. I didn't mean to jump all over you like that. I am one who sees a fire and runs right over and stomps it out. My feet are only a size seven but sometimes I have 13's. I'm sorry Dawud.
Once again -I don't want any emails! (like oh bawwww you are just a mushy puddle or anything! I was apologizing for being a bee-itch, I still stand on the ethics question.)
Posted by Cheryl Lucas (Member # 1656) on :
Dawud,
All said, you might find some interesting advise here if you posted a new topic about portfolio's, in general.
It takes time to develope a portfolio, especially when starting from scratch, in a new location, with the desire to expand your abilities.
I've been to numerous Letterhead meets, sitting at the portfolio table in awe over awesome craftmanship and supurb presentation. There is definately good advise to be had from the many folks here in Letterville.
The most impressive portfolio's I've seen where uncrowded, with large photo's as well as blow-ups of detail sometimes lost in the big picture. Some, had sections for specific types of work, some had a brief type written explaination of each particular sign/job. Some, were not pages upon pages of like work, but instead a showcase of their best work.
We all have to start somewhere. If your portfolio isn't quite what you'd like it to be, do something to spruce up what you already have and make it look impressive and professional.
Educate yourself in the area's and products you would like to work and ask good questions when interviewing your clients for a job. Questions, that will leave them feeling confident in your ability.
If you want to create work in a specific area, tell the client the type of work you want or "like" to do. Carving? Gold leaf? Dementional? Sandblasted? Airbrushed? Antiqued? Murals? Tell everyone! The person you are talking with may not be interested, but at some point in time, more than likely your name will come up when they know someone who wants what you have to offer.
Get yourself a digital camera if you don't already have one. Take pictures of each job you're doing that's along the lines of where you want to go. If you're doing a job that requires special materials, tools or techniques, take some step by step shots. Some, may be interesting spotlights in your portfolio as well as an aid in explaining a higher price for your work.
Something my mentor once told me:
"There's nothing new under the sun, it's only a matter of how you rearrange it..."
Good luck to you in developing a portfolio you are proud of.
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