[ April 27, 2005, 01:06 PM: Message edited by: Neil D. Butler ]
Posted by Kelly Thorson (Member # 2958) on :
Don't worry Neil, he's going away reeeal soon. PS Ugly signs are cheap here too. Posted by Dave Sherby (Member # 698) on :
Well if I did my math right comparing Canadian funds to US funds that's about $242.50 US for the Dibond sign. That's nuts. Is he trying to go out of business? Tough to keep positive fighting that kind of archaic pricing.
Posted by Neil D. Butler (Member # 661) on :
"Nut's" is polite way of putting it.. I'm busier than ever right now, so I must be doing something right. But it's hard putting up with these new shops who "Ruin" what a sign trade should be.
Posted by Lotti Prokott (Member # 2684) on :
This is crazy. I'm paying close to $120 for a sheet of 3mm Dibond, plus 7% non-refundable tax, plus shipping. Even if he gets a better deal and buys enough that he doesn't have to pay the shipping, it's jsut not enough money. What I don't understand is why would anybody want to leave this much money on the table Posted by Si Allen (Member # 420) on :
Hey Neil....why not sub out your work to him?
Posted by KARYN BUSH (Member # 1948) on :
what an ass..........
Posted by Amy Brown (Member # 1963) on :
I just lost a big sandblasted job for multiple signs. It was to be blasted in multiple stages, had one area that would have to be beveled by hand and then blasted. Not a normal straight forward blast job. I went low at $115/sq.ft. They got a price at $40/sq.ft.
I did as Si suggested, asked for their name so they can do all my work and I'll just resell. Idiots!!
Posted by Ron Helliar (Member # 398) on :
A positive solution for everyone would be to have Mark or Johnathon at Estimate call them and walk him/her through their overhead work sheet. Looks like someone forgot to fill in a few blanks. There is economically depressed areas, and there's just plain mistakes that can be corrected to everyones benefit.
Posted by Glenn Taylor (Member # 162) on :
Don't feel so bad. I just lost a repeat order recently for Sweatshirts.
Our "City" had been ordering a specific brand and type of sweatshirt from us for years. Recently, they decided to get another quote from someone else.
The shirts cost us $17 each from the distributor/manufacturer not including the shipping. Our price to the "City" was $26 each (based on printing 40 pieces) which included the two-color imprint. The "Competitor" quoted the "City" $18 each. This was part of a much larger order.
As a result, I just lost 10% of my annual gross sales (nearly $40k). All of the various city departments are being directed to send there orders to this guy.
Just gotta love it.
Posted by david drane (Member # 507) on :
Double posted
[ April 27, 2005, 10:14 PM: Message edited by: david drane ]
Posted by david drane (Member # 507) on :
quote:Originally posted by Kelly Thorson: Don't worry Neil, he's going away reeeal soon. PS Ugly signs are cheap here too.
Maybe Kelly, but there will be another one right behind him. I think you had best get used to it Neil. All you can do is keep up your own standard and let them have the cheapskates whilst minding your own business. The following is a "cut & paste" I replied to on another forum about pricing:-
One thing that sticks in my neck is the fact that many puter operators have come into this trade with no knowledge of sign painting, beaten the price of materials down that the quality is now gone and looked at how low they can go. I now feel that I wasted 5 years of my life doing an apprenticeship learning letter construction, colour use and layout and design just to be gazumped by people calling themselves sign manufacturers with no skill and getting work by reducing prices. I bought my first puter in 1985 (Gerber 4A) and was amazed at the beautiful Hell Vertical lettering that it was able to do. I don't know about other areas and countries, but where I live lettering Helvetica was the "Hallmark" of a good signwriter. In no time uneducated nit-wits started buying puters and before long Cooper Black squashed to 30% and slanted to 25° filling up the entire background started to appear on the front of Jewellers or hairdressers etc. etc. After a while everything started to look "sterile" so I put more decoration to the lettering but then the asses started copying any decent work and again all work looked mundane. One company rep (Gerber) said to me that all signwriters were dickheads, because they were the only people he knew who invested big bucks in machinery so they could sell their work for less. He was selling some kind of plotters to clothing companies, who in turn could cut patterns quicker and make clothes quicker but they did not cut the price. I had to work much harder BC (before computers), because to do a nice job a lot of copy had to be second coated and the layout required much skill to balance, so materials did not come into the equation because of labor costs. Now one of the reps tells me that most shops he goes into the first question he is asked is "how much a meter is it?" where I ask how good is the material. I have noticed over the years that even good companies like 3M and Arlon are cutting costs and I can and have proved it. Several years ago I put a dark blue panel on a window and it wasn't quite enough, so I picked up a small piece which was newer and when it sat side by side the pigment was not in the newer product although it was identical brand. Have a look some time, any new product can almost be used as a translucent even though the price has gone up and the quality has gone down. When digital printers first came on the scene I was amazed at the beautiful work being done once again, but now after seeing so much of it, then it also has become sterile. OK, so some here can brag about the money they can make, but only a well designed and hand executed paint job done with brush or air brush can be called art and that is what it is. There can be no exact replica as it is one off and I admire this work, but others who can not appreciate masters like the late Chester Cunningham and Mike Stevens, Ray Chapman, Gary Anderson and Bob Behounek to name just a few, would not know a piece of pure art if it smacked them in the face, instead of bastardising the industry. I hate having to do a lot of "new" logo work that comes from "Graphic Designers" (they used to be commercial artists) who employ 16 year old kids to sit on their butts in their air conditioned offices (they used to be called stidios) playing on their puters seeing how many effects they can squeeze onto one logo showing utter disregard for legibility or future printing needs, and stealing good money for so doing.
Posted by Neil D. Butler (Member # 661) on :
I have to agree with David, these shops are not going away. because there's more right behind them. Over the last 10 years or so I've actually had 3 different customers with entirely different backgrounds open Sign Shops, now can you believe that? They honestly think there's a pot of gold in this business, that magically appears as soon as you put the "Open" sign up. And to say that all we have to do, is put out Quality Work, sort of scares me a little, it's true to a point, but the gravy just is'nt there.
Posted by Ray Rheaume (Member # 3794) on :
I heard that, Neil.
In the last few years, I've seen people in the following list open sign shops with just a cutter...
1 Radio station general manager 2 auto repair mechanics 4 race car drivers 1 tree service owner ..and a few more I can't recall.
quote: And to say that all we have to do, is put out Quality Work, sort of scares me a little, it's true to a point, but the gravy just is'nt there.
Plenty of gravy out there when you get the reputation for doing the good stuff, Neil.
All theses folks who pop up and find out that this business isn't what they expected eventually drop out. Sure, there's gonna be another one right behind them...making the same mistake. They never took the time to improve their skills and make a CARREER out of sign making.
Fight the good fight, always look for ways to improve and soon you'll be "THE" sign guy in town. Rapid
Posted by Neil D. Butler (Member # 661) on :
Ray I agree with you, I was'nt really complaining, just informing. "I am the Sign Guy" in town, that's why I keep busy. I try to do things differently than most. I do, make signs differently than most, that's why the ohers try to imitate me, my style, the colors I choose, and my Lay-outs. I've been in this business since 1978, so I do have a reputation. Lets keep working on that reputation.
Posted by George Perkins (Member # 156) on :
David, that just may be the best post I've ever read on the BB Posted by Nancie W. Phillips (Member # 3484) on :
I have to agree with George...
Posted by Chuck Gallagher (Member # 69) on :
Send them a pocket size Signwriters Pricing Guide compliments of you! See what happens then. When I first started I didn't know sh*t about pricing other than calling around, but it's so easy to "not" know the value until you're in it for awhile and learn, so I've have sent out a couple of these and guess what, everyone makes more money and the customers learn to pay real prices!
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