Okay, let me see. First it was all hand lettered stuff. Then came in the computer with all of it's perfect letters.Then they put in the funky "Hand Lettered Look" fonts. Because the hand lettered and not so perfect letters look cooler. The other day I had a trucker insist on the hand lettered version for his gross vehicle weight etc. because the paint mask letters looked too perfect. So could this actually mean a return to hand lettered sign again? And of course, this goes the same for automotive pinstriping.
Posted by Rick Chavez (Member # 2146) on :
I rarley get a customer that wasn't reffered to me who wants hand lettering-but there is still a demand for it, I think if you live in a large enough market and can team up with enough larger craft sign shops you can have enough hand painted signwork to keep you busy. If you are involved in the lowbrow, hotrod and Rat Rod scene, you can be painting almost everyday...at least every weekend, just have to have a big client base and go after it.
Posted by David Wright (Member # 111) on :
They won't ask for it if you won't show it or do it enough for word to get out. I don't hand letter that much anymore, but it is always respected and appreciated.
Posted by Brian O'Prey (Member # 4063) on :
Let's all hope so......especially if we love our planet!!
Posted by Monte Jumper (Member # 1106) on :
I've always loved a quote a friend of mine used one day..."with computers you can now make ugly signs perfectly" Kinda has a ring to it!
Posted by Raymond Chapman (Member # 361) on :
There is a client coming in this morning that is making a film for the U.S. Army and they need some signs that look like they were produced in the 40's. They contacted me from a referral by an advertising agency that told them I was the only person in the area still doing hand lettering.
Made me feel kinda good.
Posted by Steve Burke (Member # 2674) on :
Alicia- I know this is cruel but when I saw the title I thought of that Britney Spears song "OOps I'm CON-fused again..."
Ray- Yer PC working again??
Posted by Murray MacDonald (Member # 3558) on :
When I started in the business, everything was handlettered, then came Letraset (anyone remember that?) and then computer cut vynull...that drove me out of the biz. Ten years ago I opened my shop thinking I would get the small personal signs (cottages etc.) because I didn't think I could compete with vynull. Now 95% of the work going out of here is hand lettered...largest so far is a 24'x 48' store front...that includes a lot of hiway billboards. The only vynull, which we farm out, is usually for reflective. I like Monte's point...anyone can buy a computer and say they make signs, but you still have to know what a good sign should look like. There are loads of great signmakers who work exclusively in vinyl. and a whole bunch of brushies doing terrific work. Many of us do both, 'cause the economics demand it. I think I'm trying to make a point here, but I'm damned if I know what it is! MUR
Posted by jack wills (Member # 521) on :
If we go back to HAND LETTERING, that will almost surely put the waste companies out of business.
Would the real sign painter please stand up?
CrazyJack
Posted by Joey Madden (Member # 1192) on :
What popped into my head was the fact that vinyl on vehicles is cut off approximently 1/8" before the door jambs which make for a space of approximently 3/4" before continuing the striping or design. Who on Gods earth wants this? Persons who haven't a clue aren't my clients is the answer, and the world is full of them Posted by W. R. Pickett (Member # 3842) on :
...NONE of the stick-on letter purveyors around here know how to design a good sign. (Everything they do SUCKS) Apparently they are only in the sign businness for the fabulous money they can make. (!)
Handlettering is still a terriffic option for lots of sign work. ...The only problem is, ya have to know how to do it ! ! !
Posted by Jillbeans (Member # 1912) on :
Now Now, Billy. There are a lot of good designers on this BB, both vynull AND hand-jobbers. Have you been hanging out with "The Second Elvis" lately? Love...Jill PS (Alicia, I think that the desire for hand-lettering is again on the upswing, as well as customers wanting honest-to-goodness hand striping!)
Posted by old paint (Member # 549) on :
yea people want had lettering...AT CHEAP A** VINYL PRICES!!!! they figure since vinyl is so cheap(thanks to all the dodo's with vinyl cutter & a computer and the lure of BIG BUCKS, ala mickey D's volume sales concept)the next thing out their mouth is "paintin shouldnt cost as much, you dont have all that vinyl to buy!" had one the other day called me wanted me to paint on HIS PLYWOOD......now that just puts me in the wrong place with this A**HOLE. then i proceed to tell him i dont paint on plywood my brush cost more then his sheet of plywood. and i only paint on MDO OR ALUM. then i gota splain what and why to them....then they dont call back to get the work done after wasting 1/2 hour on the phone!!!!! these one deserve the cheapest vinyl you can buy....ON CARDBOARD!!!!!!
Posted by Doug Allan (Member # 2247) on :
why be a first-rate version of yourself, when you can be a third-rate version of a Second-Elvis.
(edit) ...now back letting my computer make more ugly signs perfectly while I go to the bank. At least I'm un-initiated enough to think that I'm deriving creative satisfaction from pushing all the right buttons. (hope I didn't push anyone elses)
ahh... ignorance isbliss!
[ May 05, 2004, 03:10 PM: Message edited by: Doug Allan ]
Posted by Bill Cosharek (Member # 1274) on :
Yea Alicia, I know what you mean (unless I misread your post). I hit that wall a year ago and decided I didn't want to play that game. Tryin' to break from the masses who think all should have the exact same fonts for their customers. Hand-letterers still have that edge because their fonts are unique. But, what's to stop the hand-letterers from making their own fonts; besides time? Then you can use your own lettering on the plotter. That's when I decided to delve into the wonderful and mysterious world of font making. It has its rewards, but there is a leaning curve (especially on italics). Have some signs up a few months now with my own font. I wonder if anybody has tried to match 'm yet. Naw, they probably think it's painted.
As far as design goes, I feel that good design is timeless and never goes out of style. If it does, then it probably wasn't that good to begin with. And it matters not whether it was made with vinyl, paint or both. There are designing rules to follow which apply to both methods, regardless of choice. Learn 'm and do not worry what others do.
Posted by Sheila Ferrell (Member # 3741) on :
Alicia, I can sell either one just as well, but for many types of signs I actually prefer vinyl, not only because of being able to make it look "custom" and not "cookie cutter", but also because I only have just so much time and can turn out twice or 3 times the work with the vinyl.
On a lot of signs I use vinyl and some hand work too, and all my pictorials are painted by hand . . . while most of the logos are hand-cut vinyl
I have also found since the arrival of vinyl, that many customers demand "hand-lettering" as if it's some extremely unique, elite & posh thing . . . LOL, which of course it is and so they love to pay well for that artistic touch & tell their friends; "Thah's was hah'nd-lettah'ed dah'ling". . .
. . . . . . .god, I love this business. Posted by Todd Gill (Member # 2569) on :
Mr. Pickett....that's a mighty broad brush you're using there.
I can appreciate both even though I only do vinyl. And I think I've done some decent stuff. And the environment comment?.....didn't they put lead in pain for years and years?
Now here's a way to get rich: develop bio-degradeable vinyl. Posted by Bob Stephens (Member # 858) on :
I don’t really care how a sign is made so long as it designed properly. I've seen more than my share of crap in both paint and vinyl.
All that matters is that its well designed and priced professionally. Thats all this game is about.
One method is not better than the other. Digital printing is the future and I can't wait till all I do is get paid to design and production becomes irrelevant. My flatbed is ordered and I would love nothing better than printing the next best thing to money!
Besides, you never let the customer dictate to you what they want. If you do then you are not the professional.
Posted by Joey Madden (Member # 1192) on :
No one said that all vinyl people suck, try reading with your mind open as well as your eyes Posted by Todd Gill (Member # 2569) on :
Joey....ya better re-read Mr. Pickett's post....I think you've got it backwards here. Cheers. Posted by Sheila Ferrell (Member # 3741) on :
I think Mr. Pickett was refering to the "quicky-sticky-while-you-wait-drive-thru" shops that cause people to have the wrong impression that we think too highly of our vinyl & hand-lettering skills because those shops and their customers do not care about design or creating any kind of aesthetic signage, which is what sets us apart from them.
But they must realize we naturally DO think more highly of it simply because we do THINK/ACT on taking our work futher than just "slap-on'vinyl".
No need to be offended. Folks might need fast-signs just as they need "Taco Bell".
But I'm here to tell ya when they really wanna "dine-out" they gotta have somewhere to go get the full experience . . . Posted by Mike Pipes (Member # 1573) on :
Restaurants don't do anything for me, I can make better food at home and not have to deal with a pest waiter, stupid birthday songs, or noisy dining area. Although I do have to say going out with friends is the best part of it, but I could just as easily have them come to my place. Posted by Doug Allan (Member # 2247) on :
Thanks to human nature's code of silence(or partiality)I wonder if someone could sneak a stabbing by us as long as they used a brush & not an xacto.
Posted by Rick Chavez (Member # 2146) on :
Crazy old man talk.....step away from the one shot and reducer!!! The can says use in ventilated area!!!!
Posted by CJ Allan (Member # 52) on :
All I know is that none of the people that come to me, want any of that cheap-ass machine engraving...........
I can stay as busy as I want, and make as much money as i want, but I've always been TOOO lazy and picky about who I do stuff for......so Most stuff gets turned down....Besides......money ain't my priority.........
I guess ya could say......There really is a good market for "Top Quality, Hand Done" things......."IF" you want to make the effort to learn everything you can about whatever it is you're doing............. If you just want to know enough to get by, or get the next job.........then that's what you'll be doing....and whine about how ya just can't make ends meet.........
........cj
Posted by Joey Madden (Member # 1192) on :
Todd, when Pickett said here, did he mean Letterville or Richmond Virginia? Lets start a big friggin post reading persons minds then jumping all over them when we're right. Since I don't do friggin signs, you can tell me to keep my mouth shut but sometimes I don't understand when persons say they only do vinyl yet paint the backgrounds. Does the background outlast the vinyl or does the vinyl outlast the background? Does a good design in vinyl outlast a bad design in paint?
Posted by Murray MacDonald (Member # 3558) on :
All this philosphizin' is gettin' me down. Is the person who designs with a pencil and paper more "pure" than the one who designs on a computer? Does a sign have less visual appeal 'cause its paint and not vinyl, or vice versa? Let's face it...a tool is a tool is a tool, it's the end result that counts. Personally, I love to paint and carve, but not everything I do can be high end "art", whatever the hell that may be. I may not be pleased with the aesthetic of a lot of stuff that goes out of my shop, but at least I have the satifaction of knowing that it's well executed, and helps pay the bills, not to mention the fact that it's what the customer wants. "Course, I could get bloody highminded all the way to the poorhouse, but I prefer to get some satisfaction out of a well done "open for business" sign. My 2 cts. MUR
Posted by Todd Gill (Member # 2569) on :
Yeah, what Murray said. Design makes the job no matter what the medium.
But Joey, I find it hard to believe that there is not a single designer in Richmond that works in vinyl that isn't talented.
The population in Richmond is roughly 200,000. That's twice that of the capitol city of Lansing, MI near where I live. And I know there are several talented "vinyl" guys around here. I refuse to believe that design skills diminish as one moves geographically to the southeast. Posted by Jillbeans (Member # 1912) on :
Ok Joey, point taken. Maybe Billy WAS referring to his neck of the woods. But it still sounded snotty to me. ...Isn't Gary Godby from Virginia? Love...Jill (with Murray, as usual)
Posted by Kissymatina (Member # 2028) on :
I read Pickett's comment and figured he meant around his area. I was around Richmond for 2 months earlier this year and didn't take 1 picture of 1 sign or even comment about any (except the old Arby's neon signs). I was actually disappointed in the lack of eye candy and kept telling myself I had to be in the wrong areas of town for that. Other than the kinda cool Marlboro sign, there were some really cool wall murals in the art district. Wonder if those were destroyed in the fire.
FYI: Gary Godby is in Warrenton, 90+ miles from Richmond.
Posted by Michael Latham (Member # 4477) on :
Whew, mind boggler of a post! Kissy's right, so is Pickett, I'm 45ish miles south of Richmond and there are few great signs. Many good ones that everyone sees and passes by and loads of bad ones that only catch "our" attention. I think I know what the problem in Richmond is...I believe it's the Virginia bloodlines being deluted with "outsiders." (You know they are still fighting the Civil War here!?) There are really a lot of really great sign makers here. I have met a few in the Virginia Sign Council and see good work all around.
Now don't anyone take offense, unless your still fighting the Civil War also and my 357 will go against your flintlock musket nicely.
Posted by Sheila Ferrell (Member # 3741) on :
LOL! Alicia?? Where are you on this post now??
LOL, it's gettin' reduced to threats of gun-slingin', as if paint and vinyl slingin' and dining analogies are not enough . . .
Where's the unity?
Where is the love?
Posted by Murray MacDonald (Member # 3558) on :
Aw, c'mon Sheila...a little family spat ain't nothin' to get upset about...long as they remember that I'm the only one who's right. Well, we could maybe stomp on the gunslinger. LUV MUR
Posted by Doug Allan (Member # 2247) on :
whew... an I was worried 'bout how my stabbing anaolgy would go over... Thanks for drawing the fire Michael.
Murray is right that only he's right!
IMO, sentences starting with "None", or "everything" are probably generalizations meant more for impact then for being "right"... (I know I choose being dramatic over being right quite a bit around here myself )
Posted by John Lennig (Member # 2455) on :
Howdy Alicia, I think we should get some handletterers?? maybe 4-6 -8-10...? together, line painters too(opps, pinstripers...) and have some fun. Washington has some/lots of the brush persuasion... summer is approaching, bar-b-que?
John Lennig / Signrider
Posted by Kevin W. Betz (Member # 4133) on :
Hi All: Yes, I also believe that with paint comes ideas. The truth of the matter is, perfect lines will never help a bad layout. But a good design will overshawdow bad lettering. With this in mind, ideas are created within ourselves. By applying a layout with design, color and delusion harmony will lend itself to the computer or the hand. Krazy Kevin.
Posted by Alicia B. Jennings (Member # 1272) on :
Paint or vinyl, you can't beat a great layout. But the masses are always amazed to see a great layout all done with happy, pretty paint. I guess modern technology combined with old time skills, makes for a fantastic sign maker. I sometimes wish I could hear an applaus even after applying the most simplist paint strokes. But the same would go for a perfect applied vinyl job. No bubbles, right flat on the surface. Appplllaaauuussss!!!!!
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Kinda has a ring to it!
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