posted
I'll ask the questio then... I was going to ask this before but never, now I will......
Why is it that the Paint guys are coming down on the Vinyl shops, but the Hand Carved guys don't come down on the Router Guys... same thing Isn't it???? People who used to do everything by hand are now using the latest softwae, super duper Routers, and even fake wood, hdu to do things a lot faster than using the old "Traditional" ways, gluing up wood, sanding and finishing the wood, cutting resist by hand, blasting or carving by hand.. but now a computer does it all. slap in a piece of hdu, push a few buttons, go have lunch, and come back and out spits a 3-d sign... it exactly the same scenario as the digital Graphics versus the hand painting.
I'll go get the popcorn Jon, want some? he he
-------------------- "Keep Positive"
SIGNS1st. Neil Butler Paradise, NF Posts: 6277 | From: St. John's NF Canada | Registered: Mar 1999
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posted
You are a funny man Neil! It's not that the hand carvers are computer illiterate, it's just hard to type with all those missing digits.
-------------------- “Did you ever stop to think, and forget to start again?” -Winnie the Pooh & A.A. Milne
Kelly Thorson Kel-T-Grafix 801 Main St. Holdfast, SK S0G 2H0 ktg@sasktel.net Posts: 5496 | From: Penzance, Saskatchewan | Registered: May 2002
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Maybe it's because there are so many people that buy a plotter to get into the sign business. They have no design skills so they become lowballers to try to make it on a $1500 investment.
I see established sign makers buying routers, so the design skills are in place and they charge what a sign is worth. I don't think there are many people willing to drop $20,000 into a router to "try" sign making.
Or maybe it's just because guys like Joe C have too much class to belittle others.
So now I'll order my 25¢ worth of popcorn for $4.00.
-------------------- Dave Sherby "Sandman" SherWood Sign & Graphic Design Crystal Falls, MI 49920 906-875-6201 sherwoodsign@sbcglobal.net Posts: 5398 | From: Crystal Falls, MI USA | Registered: Apr 1999
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posted
The quick answer is......there ain't many of us left (hand carvers). There are still quite a few hiding in the bushes tho. There certainly isn't much on the sign forums that would attract many carvers to participate. I basically hang here cause I have many friends who do hang here and I can sorta keep in touch. These forums are sorta like a live AMAL and I love to see it all!!!!
That said...........
As a technology education major in th 60's, we were taught that technology exists for only 2 reasons.
1. To do something we can't do.
2. To do something we don't want to do.
(If anyone has a third, I'd like to hear it. )
Therefore, CNC owners fit nicely into one or both of the above catagories. There is a proven market for dimensional signs, so, if you want to play but don't want to work to obtain the skills, you buy em......(pay me now or later).
Actually, I'll bet most of the work done on the CNC's is to cut shapes and not carved letters or images. (Pretty expensive band saw or sabre saw....no?)
In any case, I really LOVE the CNC's. Despite what Jon thinks, I really DO love em. The reason is...........the more carved signs that are out there, the greater the demand. The greater the demand, the more work for me. Easy!!
I personally don't see much interest in folks to learn hand carving. Most won't invest the TIME or the $3 to $400 dolars for the "technology". It's easier to spend $50 to $100,000 or more (or in Jon's case $2,000) and get a CNC.
That's just my take on it (IMHO as they say).
Glad to hear everyone elses thoughts and theories.
Joe,
Makin Chip$ and Havin Fun!
-------------------- Joe Cieslowski Connecticut Woodcarvers Gallery P.O.Box 368 East Canaan CT 06024 jcieslowski@snet.net 860-824-0883 Posts: 2345 | From: East Canaan CT 06024 | Registered: Nov 2001
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posted
Joe and Dave's answer fits the bill in my opinion so far.
Ed there's plenty of Vinyl with hand painting , someone wants a Portrait ot actual Photograph on a sign, then Digital would be the way to go, IF, the budget was'nt there for someone to hand paint.
This is a good discussion... glad to see no anomosity...is that spelled right?
Joe that's a beautiful sigm.
Edited to say...
I'm one of those who started out and continued for 15 years or more doing work by hand, but now, I'm gone digital for most if not all my sign work... I still do a liitle Airbrushing and striping by hand and do enjoy it.. but the Vinyl is king at our shop...it keeps 6 people busy as well.
[ May 14, 2010, 11:27 AM: Message edited by: Neil D. Butler ]
-------------------- "Keep Positive"
SIGNS1st. Neil Butler Paradise, NF Posts: 6277 | From: St. John's NF Canada | Registered: Mar 1999
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posted
I learned a little bit about hand carving from Gary Rhodes and Ron Ramsey.... I don't get to use it very often, but really enjoy it when I do. I always like learning new things....you never know when that knowledge will come in handy...... and like Red Green says.... "If the ladies don't find you handsome, they should at least find you handy"......
-------------------- Life is not about waiting for the storm to pass... It's about learning to dance in the rain ! Jim Moser Design 13342 C Grass Valley Ave. Grass Valley, Ca. 95945 530-273-7615 jwmoser@att.net Posts: 488 | From: Grass Valley, Ca. | Registered: May 2006
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posted
For once I have to agree with Dave here,...until the price for a decent cnc router/carver drops below 5 grand,I don't think you are going to see to many complaints,...but once it does,..I suggest you duck for cover,....
-------------------- fly low...timi/NC is, Tim Barrow Barrow Art Signs Winston-Salem,NC Posts: 2224 | From: Winston-Salem,NC,USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Remembers very well that vinyl shops slamming hand lettering and still do saying it does not hold up, fades fast, old way of doing things, does not look good, on and on ..just plain sick of it here
Now I see vinyl hold up about 3 years some longer and it looks like crap it starts shrinking, cracking, hard to remove sometimes, fades faster then paint, the surface might be good but ya need to replace cause removal of vinyl takes longer then the cost of a new surface. Now the cost egad ya got to have a inventory of vinyl and other stuff just to get the job done in a fair amount of time, these days shops claim next day or sooner is normal I was much happier my 1st ten years doing signs then my 2nd which I was happier then my 3rd decade of signs also made alot more money, even though today's work is alot better looking, demand is very low and the computer shops have destroyed the pricing ... with there set costs add just enough profit..instead of value
posted
I wonder if upholstery shops have hand-sewing versus machine sewing debates, or lockstitch versus plain stitch battles...
-------------------- "Stewey" on chat
"...there are no limits when you aim for perfection..." Jonathan Livingston Seagull Posts: 7014 | From: Highgrove via Toowoomba, Queensland, Australia | Registered: Dec 2002
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If it weren't for dixieland and delta rythm. There would be no rock n' roll.
-------------------- Jack Wills Studio Design Works 1465 E.Hidalgo Circle Nye Beach / Newport, OR Posts: 2914 | From: Rocklin, CA. USA | Registered: Dec 1998
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posted
I am going with Dave, (who would have thought a UP'er had knowledge).
-------------------- Sam Staffan Mackinaw Art & Sign 721 S. Nokomis St. Mackinaw City, MI dstaffan@sbcglobal.net Posts: 1697 | From: Mackinaw City, MI | Registered: Mar 2004
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quote: until the price for a decent cnc router/carver drops below 5 grand,I don't think you are going to see to many complaints,.
That is not likely to happen soon. Even if the machine does get below 5 grand.. There is a huge other expense involved. Software. Learning curve, vacuum systems, dust collection systems, tooling, book learning, Electric bills, and a large room to put all of it.
I do the cnc parts in another location simply because the dust problem is so bad.
-------------------- Leaper of Tall buildings.. If you find my posts divisive or otherwise snarky please ignore them. If you do not know how then PM me about it and I will demonstrate. Posts: 5274 | From: Im a nowhere man | Registered: Jul 2001
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posted
Debating about the method we use to do things is rather pointless. While I hand paint our projects it is simply because it's the best way to do it (for me). When I need a flat sign I happily sub it out to a sign painting friend. I recommend either a digital print of cut vinyl. There's a place for both. My vehicle sports both digital prints and cut vinyl. Donna put them there for me far better than I could have.
I LOVE my CNC router and use it a lot. But on most occasions it gets me only about 50% of the way I need to go. The fact is my CNC router is not always the fastest or easiest way to do some things. I also use chisels, die grinders, dremels, knives and files to achieve the balance of my projects. While I love to do things by hand, I also happily use my router to make the projects go easier and faster. Having had a shop full of skilled employees in the past I prefer to use a machine these days to help me with this work.
I LOVE wiggly lines and textured surfaces. Others may prefer a more polished look. I enjoy what I do... hopefully those who do smooth polished work enjoy that. Both types of work have their place and applications.
Having an expensive and high end (and FAST) CNC router makes perfect sense to me. If a lower end (less expensive) router makes the most sense for another shop's application and budget I say no problem... even though I may stoop to a little bit of teasing on occasion.
I prefer to use top end acrylic house paints in our shop exclusively. It works for me and is a personal preference. I have my favorite brands too. I've achieved long lasting results with these paints. Others may choose to use high end exotic paints or the tried and true oil base. If they are getting good results with their methods I say the more power to them... even if I don't make the switch myself.
Ultimately it is about design and the execution and not the medium or methods we choose to work in. I admire any work that is well done. Although I personally don't do vinyl, exclusively hand carve or do airbrushing some of my best friends do. I respect that. Hopefully the feeling is mutual.
-grampa dan
-------------------- Dan Sawatzky Imagination Corporation Yarrow, British Columbia dan@imaginationcorporation.com http://www.imaginationcorporation.com
Being a grampa is one of the the most wonderful things in the world!!! Posts: 8738 | From: Yarrow, B.C. Canada | Registered: Nov 1998
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I did a 4x8 sign in 1980 that is still facing the south and still burning gas. At the time, I could have ordered the vinyl cut from some company in Arizona, but time and money dictated I hand paint. I really do not see many vinyl signs left in the sun for 30 years that hold up.
Someone calls and wants a simple small sign done and only thinks price. The vinyl guys can do it for half of what I would charge, so I send them there, if longevity is not part of the need. I am glad they exist and can cut me out of the loop... but when someone wants hand paint, guess what? Nobody left who knows how to do it anymore. I can charge what I feel is really fair for my time and skills.
Now I do very few small hand painted signs per year. I just had someone need a couple of sandwich signs and digitally subbed them out and made good money on the mark up for my design time and delivery. That is fine. I also had yesterday a Chevy store need a 75x4 foot window display splash sign that took me two hours to finish and come home with the $750 check. He called at Noon and by five I was home. I can't imagine vinyl could have done that at any price.
We hand painters are not better. We just have a different product. I respect everyone who has the courage to jump in the pond and compete....and no, I still do not have a cutter. Yes, the hand carvers are artists and the router people are just as valid, in the same light.
-------------------- Preston McCall 112 Rim Road Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 text: 5056607370 Posts: 1554 | From: Santa Fe, New Mexico | Registered: Nov 1998
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