I'm a Graphic Designer from Ontario, Canada. I'm interested in starting a Digital Vinyl business (just small to start - maybe out of my garage). I'm tired of having to search for a new job everytime my contract runs out. Anyway, I don't have any money to spend and I don't have any experience So, I need to start as small as possible.
Can anyone offer up some advice? I've been looking at the "ColorCAMM PRO PC-600". Used if i can find one. Is it any good?
How about learning? Books videos how did everyone here learn? If you knew then what you know now, how would you start? What would you do?
So, I'm looking for information like that. I'd really really apreciate ANY help and/or advice. Please point me in the right direction.
Thanks for you time! Posted by Rick Chavez (Member # 2146) on :
What exactly do you want to do? There is a lot you can do with a printer, but where do you want to go with this? First thing is to get a subscription to Signcraft Magazine, in there are some great books on different subjects plus great articles on design and technique. Find a direction then go from there, you dont have too have a printer to start, sub it out, save your money and buy a good printer, I am not a big fan of the Roland Coloor camm, though a couple here swear by it. You might also get "Signs of the Times" magazine, "A magazine about letterheads" (my favorite) "Sign Business" "Auto Art Magazine" and maybe even a design magazine like "How", "Print" or "Communication Arts"
Rick
Posted by Jason Schultz (Member # 4281) on :
Hi Rick,
Thanks for your reply. I'm trying to keep things as simple and easy as possible to start off with. I'm from a small town (about 75,000) and there are already big sign shops here, so, for now I don't want to compete with them. My main focus will be graphics for vehicles (not carwraps), boats, lettering for ski-doos, small stuff like that. Custom jobs that the "big guys" don't have the time for.
So, to get specific, what I'd like to know is - what brand of printer/cutter and what size is good and affordable? what type of computer pc or mac? what software? esentially what is the cheapest setup I can start with and work out of my house? (for now)
I wish I had more money to put into this, however if it is a feasable business I may be willing to get a loan to start.
My current contract at the local college is up in December of this year - I'm really tired of working for other people (who get all the credit for my work anyway), and I feel it's time to start my own "thing", whatever the cost.
Any and All help is appreciated - even just encouraging words will help.
Posted by W. R. Pickett (Member # 3842) on :
If you get a plotter and start sticking letters on things, you will be competing w. your local shops. Maybe you could offer some service (like hand lettering or gilding) that they can't or don't touch.
In any event, do something most new-be shops don't bother to do and EDUCATE yourself about sign design. A great way to start is to get a copy of MASTERING LAYOUT by Mike Stevens and absorb his wisdom. Once you do, you'll see what your competion is doing wrong. Good luck bud.
Posted by Terry Baird (Member # 3495) on :
Hi Jason, Welcome to Letterville. I've got every issue of Signcraft and what I've learned from it's pages would pay for the subscriptions for a 1000 years! You've also found, in my opinion one of the best resources around for learning here at Letterville. There are tons of printers, software packages, cutters, etc. on the market and everybody has on opinion one way or another about what you should use. Buy an issue of Signcraft and look at some of the starter packages advertised. Most of them are bare bones, but it's better than taking a chance on used. I use a Roland Camm1 and cut dirrectly from CorelDraw, but although it works fine for me, most folks would prefer the bells and whistles of a package like Vinyl Master Pro. At any rate, good luck and If you have any questions at all, this is the place to ask.
Posted by Jason Schultz (Member # 4281) on :
Thanks W.R. and Terry.
Just outta curiosity what are the more profitable jobs out there?
Can I make a decent living doing just vinyl printing?
Posted by Mike Pipes (Member # 1573) on :
Jason, here's some advice:
Use the resources you have available right now.
You said you don't have any (or a lot of) money to put into it, so you're already at a loss trying to get a machine like a ColorCAMM even if you can get a decent deal on one. Plus you will have to invest in vinyls, ribbons, and other miscellaneous inventory. On top of that, a digital printer isn't just going to start making money, you're going to WASTE a TON of vinyls and ribbons through the learning curve trying to get it setup right so it will produce work you can actually charge money for. If you get a used unit, you may end up having to replace the printhead too, which is a huge expense. In other words, it's not something for a start-up to get into because it WILL suck all available resources.
You can do this very cheaply. In fact, if you already have a computer (which I assume you do since you're posting here) you can do this at no cost at all. You can generate your own artwork, and build business relationships with those other sign shops in your area. Maybe find a shop that does good work but is a little slim on workload, and have them do the production side.
You help them out by bringing in work. They do the "gruntwork", you do the work you know how to do without burning all your time trying to figure everything out at once while you're under the gun to get bills paid. You make pure profits through product mark-up and design fees, and not having to worry about fronting the money for more materials and inventory.
Plus, you can use your skills and time for other design work.. signs, t-shirts, business cards, flyers, logos, etc.. anything you feel like designing.
I'm gradually shutting down all production in my business. I wont be getting rid of any equipment (it's all paid for, and comes in handy at times) but it costs a WHOLE lot less to focus on design and let someone else (trustworthy) do production, than it does to maintain inventory and do all the work yourself.
If you feel the need to go buy something, pick up some brushes, maybe an airbrush or two, and some paints. It's a much smaller investment but has more yield, and still gives you the hands-on fun.
Posted by Jane Diaz (Member # 595) on :
No one has mentioned a letterhead event yet!?! You need to click to the caption at the left that says "Future Live meets" and pick the one that appeals to you, is the closest, is during you vacation time...BUT GO TO ONE! You WILL NOT be sorry! You will get to talk to people who have been at for years and newbies like yourself. You will be able to work side-by-side with whoever and on whatever you chose. But MOST of all, you WILL learn! You have to open yourself up to people though. Ask questions. Don't be a "lurker" and stand and watch. (Well, you can, but you won't learn as much.) If you want to see what goes on look at "Past Meets". And you WILL have fun!!!
Posted by Glenn Taylor (Member # 162) on :
Jason,
Until you have built up your market sufficiently, don't buy anything. And when you do, buy the right tool for the job. One mistake people make is buying something assuming it will bring them work. Nine times out of ten, it won't.
My suggestion is to find a wholesale source. It could be another sign shop or one of the larger wholesale houses. Doing so will allow you to get into the digital printing business without putting any of your own cash up front.
By waiting on your equipment purchase, your market will dictate to you what its needs are. Then when you are ready, you'll be able to buy the right tool. You may be thinking that a small thermal printer is the way to get started only to find that what you should have bought was a wide-format inkjet printer and a laminator. Or, you may find that there is no market out there to justify the expense of buying anything.
Take your time. Be patient. Listen to your market.
Posted by Chuck Churchill (Member # 68) on :
Welcome Jason. I know a little bit about Sault Ste. Marie. I have been there 10-12 times over the past 3 and 1/2 years (my son just graduated from the Sault College Aviation program) and one of our suppliers is in Sault Ste. Marie. Go over to Algoma Banner and introduce yourself. They are friendly people and can sure help you out when you need banner blanks. I also suspect they will know alot about the sign market in the Sault.
I see lots of small businesses in the Sault. They all have needs for more or better signs. Knock on some doors and introduce yourself. Offer to do the first project at a very low cost (not free!) and give them great service. They will be back for more soon. Find some of the service organizations and charitable groups in town. They too will be looking for a real good deal. If they have lots of members other profitable business will follow from the members.
I know there are some federal and provinical government offices in the area. The Ontario Lottery Corp., Revenue Canada and the Customs and Immigration Staff at the bridge are a few. Don't be afraid to send them a flyer or make a phone call to a senior person in the group. They like to "shop locally" whenever they can.
You have a couple of large companies in town. Algoma Steel and the pulp and paper mill (can't remember whose name is on the smokestack!). Make some inquires as to how they have plant and safety signs made. If they don't have someone in house doing them ask to be considered the next time they need something. These types of businesses can be a steady stream of easy to make signs.
Look for property developers and property managers in the Sault. This is another source of steady easy to make signs.
One last thing....take Mike's advise. You don't have to buy expensive equipment to be in the sign business. In fact it can be a handicap. Make friends with others who already have spent the money and the time to learn how to use it. They will likely welcome a little more business from a new sign guy rather than see you as a competior. When you start writing them big cheques every month is the time to think about buying that printer/cutter.
Posted by Joe Rees (Member # 211) on :
quote:Originally posted by Glenn Taylor: My suggestion is to find a wholesale source.
That makes so much sense on so many levels - great advice Glen! The markups on wholesale graphics outweigh the advantages to owning high dollar equipment untill you get to very high production levels. In my opinion, ALL sign production is merely a means to sell more design. It's the door opener, where the design itself is the real product you're selling.
Posted by Dave Grundy (Member # 103) on :
Jason..I'm a new guy too..only been doing sign stuff for about 11 or 12 years. I use a Roland cutter and an airbrush or touchup gun or full DeVilbis as necessary.
For digital stuff I take advantage of a great guy who is fairly close to me in London Ont.
I can't tell you his company name because he isn't a merchant here but I can hint at his first name being K3n and his last name being H3nry. Look him up and he might be willing to subcontract....Who knows?
Sorry K3n!!!!!!!! LOL
Posted by Jason Schultz (Member # 4281) on :
Thanks very much Mike, Jane, Glenn, Chuck, Joe and Dave.
Awsome, I never expected so many responses!
This also confirms what I was considering in the first place. My original plan (after this job runs out) was to freelance, however, fearing I wouldn't be able to make enough money to support my family, I've been looking for more of a niché market.
So, freelancing sounds good, but, I'd like to provide a service that isn't being expoited to it's full potential. This is how I came across the digital vinyl idea. Now, let me run this by you all -- digital vinyl is being widely used for vehicles, signs, banners etc.... what about things like skateboards, beer fridges, computer towers, musical instruments? Advertising this service to the "average joe" to spruce up or customize something they already own?
How about that? I could design these things and still farm out the printing but my intention was to just skip a step by printing the graphics myself (and maybe save some money).
Anyway thanks so much everyone - please keep the coments, advice and ideas coming! I'm determined to get a bussines off the ground - somehow! lol
Posted by Jane Diaz (Member # 595) on :
I guess the problem I see is you saying you will "save some money"???? You are going to spend THOUSANDS on a machine that will print these things....how is that saving money? The advice that a few of these guys are giving you is FIRST try to sell this stuff and then if you build up a market (by subbing out the work) "invest" in the "tool" to make them. Otherwise you will be sitting on a BIG investment that you don't even know if you have a market for yet. We have seen it happen over & over....those big "tools" don't make the money, YOU DO! Sell yourself first and what you can do. Learn some marketable skills. THEN when you have work that can support the investment, buy the machine. Ther is some GOOD ADVICE here!! Alot of people here have been there, done that!
[ November 11, 2003, 12:40 PM: Message edited by: Jane Diaz ]
Posted by Jason Schultz (Member # 4281) on :
Thank you Jane.
Sometime it's hard to condense all this information into digestable bites.
My reasoning was - there would be a market for this type of application (never assume), and that in the long run I'd be saving money by purchasing a printer/cutter. I never even considered farming this type of thing out, again assuming that no one would be willing to do the printing for me.
Now I see more clearly where all of you are coming from.
What a great resource for information this is.
Posted by Mike Pipes (Member # 1573) on :
Jason,
Believe it or not, the market you are targeting is very limited, and while it appears there are lots of people spending money on these things, the reality is that skateboarders, musicians, computer tweakers, etc are all cheap, and digital printing is not, unless you go with inkjet.
Most of the people in these hobbies simply will not spend the $$$ you would need in order to make a coin at it. This is the precise reason I never spent the coin to replace the printhead on *MY* ColorCAMM - it wasn't worth the investment for the limited number of people that actually would spend the money on these types of things.
If you really want to market it, the absolute best way to do it is create some artwork, have another shop produce an actual sample, apply it to whatever it's gotta go on, take photos, write a press release and submit them to websites and magazines that specialize in these markets. It would be even better if you sent actual product to these same sites and mags so they can write their own reviews.
At least this way you are hitting a broader market cause I can guarantee you a population of 75,000 isn't going to yield enough customers in those limited markets you're trying to crack. Plus this effectively tests the market for this kinda product, and depending upon the response you can make the decision to sub-out digital prints per job, or buy your own equipment, or by far the easiest and cheapest way (if you have high volumes) have the product screenprinted by someone else and deal through distributors only.
Posted by Lotti Prokott (Member # 2684) on :
Jason, write a business plan. You will find good resources on the Government sites, check them out http://bsa.cbsc.org/gol/bsa/interface.nsf/engdoc/0.html. It will force you to put all your ideas down on in writing, which is a great help to sort things out. I will also enable you to have something to take to the bank. I've read that the major factor of new businesses failing in the first three years, is due to a lack of funds. Best of luck to you, Lotti
[ November 11, 2003, 11:49 AM: Message edited by: Lotti Prokott ]
Posted by PKing (Member # 337) on :
Very Good Advice is being given here Jason! Seems you have already taken a productive step by finding and using this web site to get answers to questions. In order to gain knowledge about this field. I applaud your efforts to better yourself! Your NEXT step, should be to heed the advice given to you already. DO NOT STOP at what you feel is Failure. This comes before wisdom. We as a group wish you NOT have to go through what so many of us have already accomplished thru trial and error.
Hope this helps
Posted by Jason Schultz (Member # 4281) on :
Thanks again Mike... Thanks Lottie and Pat.
I really appreciate all the helpful responses. I feel much more informed now. My biggest concern, however, is whether I'm able to support myself (and family) in this field. Nevermind buying equipment LOL...
One question though... I really don't understand the sign making process... can anyone enlighten me? I'm a Graphic Designer that works almost strickly in print. Are signs made from scratch???
Posted by Terry Whynott (Member # 1622) on :
You've received a lot of great advice, but I think the best advice was from Lotti. Prepare a business plan.
It sounds like you are trying to get into a business that you don't know anything about. Putting together a business plan is going to force you to do your homework. By the time you are done, you will know much more than you do now and you should have a pretty good idea of whether you'll be able to support your family with it.
This is something you'll have to research yourself. You can't rely on us telling you whether you'll be able to make a living or not.
My best guess is that you don't have enough business sense to work for yourself. Sorry.
Posted by Jason Schultz (Member # 4281) on :
This is not intended as a retaliation or mean spirited post back at Terry. I do apreciate Terry's opinion, as I do all opinions posted here. Although, I don't beleive judgement of my business sense can be made from the few posts here. In fact, I was raised in a business environment and participated in my family's business for the majority of my life (actually since I was 3). I've done every job in business from waxing the floors to accounting. *whew* Having said that - it is now aparent to me that I've been pretty vague on my delema, so, if I can try to clarify...
Here is the REAL problem --- I've been working as a Graphic Designer (3 year college diploma in Graphic Design)for some time. Most of my jobs have been contract jobs. My current contract expires in December of this year (NEXT MONTH!). I'm DONE with working under other people. I am interested in sign making because I would like to get away from the computer now and then and work with my hands.
So it all comes down to -- starting a home-based business in a Graphic Design related field that will make some decent money and get me away from the computer once in a while. Posted by Terry Whynott (Member # 1622) on :
Hi Jason, no offense taken. I realized what I said was harsh. It was just the impression I got. The only reason I spoke up was because I'd hate to see you, or anyone, fail at something when there is a family involved. If you were a 20 year old single guy, you'd have nothing to lose.
I don't see how anyone could jump in and try to start up a business that you don't have any experience in. You don't know what kind of equipment is used. You don't have any understanding of how to produce the work, which you just mentioned a couple posts up.
The only reason I didn't see a good business sense is because you seem to be all over the place with what it is that you want to do. I don't think you really know, yet you hope to start something up that will support your family.
Letterville is a great resource available to you. We are all here to help, but you also need to do some work yourself.
You can use the internet to research everything you need to. You can find dealers for the equipment you're after. Call them, get them to send you info. If you are looking at digital printers, ask to have samples sent to you. Find out about durability of those samples. (I would never consider printing automotive type graphics on a ColorCamm) Run your own tests on them. Take a small business course.
Most of all, I think you just need to really decide what it is that you want to do. Then do your research. Unless you can offer something really unique, it's a tough business to make a go at.
I'm not trying to discourage you. I'd just hate to see you get in over your head. Maybe find a part time job while trying to start up your business.
Just some thoughts.
Best of luck! Posted by Jason Schultz (Member # 4281) on :
Thanks Terry!
You've hit the nail right on the head!!!! I really have no idea where exactly to focus my energy and that's what I'm doing here, exploring another avenue. Do I go into advertising? Vehicle wraps? Sign making? Freelance? At this point I really just don't know.
Also, like you said I'm not 20, I can't aford to make stupid mistakes. This BB has been a great source for information and has very likely saved me from making some poor decisions!
I probably sound like I'm all over the place... It's because I am.
Posted by Jane Diaz (Member # 595) on :
One other suggestion....if you really narrow it down to an area that you would like to pursue, check out a shop that does that and visit. You probably would be better to go out of your area and do this, so your won't be veiwed at "competition". I would think you could even find a shop on this board that would allow you to hang out for the day and observe. (But I still think a letterhead event would be your best learning experience.) I remember when I did my first student teaching my senior year of college. I thought "Boy, you know, after all this schooling, now would be a LOUSY time to discover that I don't like doing this!" I did like it but I know some first time teachers who didn't! You could see first hand if this was something you were capable or interested in doing before you were in over your head. Good luck.
Posted by PKing (Member # 337) on :
Maybe THIS will help. My own background comes from the printing trade! Cold Type and Off Set.ie arranging letters to graphically print Advertising and all its forms. From business cards,posters,brouchers and alike. Or you can look at it as...SMALL SIGNS to be viewed at close distances. Weather it is done on paper,cardboard,or wood. IT is all the SAME!....a form of ADVERTISING. Your self imposed lable of "Graphic Designer" is merely the technique in which you where trained. So you ALREADY have the basic concept of SIGNS that is just one of the many forms of ADVERTISING. Hopefully your thirst to learn of other ways to accomplish this viable goal is not stuck to just the EASY way of pushing bottons and clicking a mouse. ADVERTISING space is so valuble,that it is on the grocery store floors,wrapped around vehicles,in front of business's,flown in the air,Race cars,race boats.Not to mention trying to buy 30 seconds on TV during the Super Bowl. Doesn't matter if it is multi media or CUSTOM made
SOMEONE will PAY to get it done! The choice is yours...but it IS NOT EASY
Hope this helps
Posted by Chuck Churchill (Member # 68) on :
Just to add to what Terry and Jane are saying about talking to another sign shop about what being a signmaker is like. I know there is a shop over in Blind River (about 1 hour from Sault Ste. Marie) that has frequented this site in the past. I remember they have a lot of signs out along Highway 17th but I can't remember their name. I checked the Find a Letterhead feature here but his name didn't show up.
I would look them up in the yellow pages, call and see if they would entertain a visitor for a few hours. They are just far enough from the Sault to not consider you an up start competitor. You might also go talk to Mario in Timmins (sp?). He frequents this site alot and would surely put out the welcome mat for you.
Best way to find out what goes on in a horse barn is to go to a horse barn!
Posted by Rodney gold (Member # 4065) on :
A pc 600 is only good for small decals and print costs can run to $100 per sq m or $10 per sq ft. You can only do teeny stuff reliably on em , thats what they best suited for. You should not pay more than $3-4k for a decent used one- but it's really a very limited machine (I have 2 Roland thermal printers) Digital printing is very different to general signmaking. It's a far wider and less overtraded market and you can make a lot of money at it , if you do it well. Your skills as a desinger will come in very handy - and an inkjet solvent type printer like a Roland Versacam will enable you to design and print what you like , there is little the machine cant print , and little it can't print on , it die cuts the prints and is a 30" cutter - the cost is around $13k with a decent RIP etc. Running costs for inks are around $8-10 per sq meter or under $1 per sq ft. There are many avenues open to you the digital print field You can print on most papers , so posters , photos , point of sale stuff ,in store display certificates , wall papers etc can be done with ease and at very high resolution. You can print and cut self adhesive stuff - Whatever anyone with a vinyl cutter can do , so can you but you can also print on it You can do all maner of general signage , decals and short run stickers , product labels , window and vehicle graphics , see thru window films, lexan , metallic foils, self adhesive papers , etc etc - thats a huge market in itself. Then you can print on certian fabrics - lots of applications there. Banners on banner material , plans , id cards etc are all possible - you can even print on rigid substrates like thin abs and styrene. In all likelyhood you may be doing work for your competiion!!!! If you think creatively , there are huge markets , even in a town of 75 000. Im not aligned to roland at all , so Im speaking from a user point of view. I own the bigger brother to the Versacam , the Soljet - which works exeptionally but costs $30k. Leasing a machine like the Versacam cannot be more than $450 a month over 3 years , IE $22 per day (assuming 20 work days a month) Selling price for a decent digital print is about $3-4 per sq ft (You prolly can get a lot more in a small town - compare that to the $10 or so COST for a PC thermal printer !!!), and your consumable costs will about $1 or so , so you can make $2-3 gross per sq ft , you need to print 11 sq ft a day to break even , and that is really mickey mouse iro what you CAN print. you should be able to print at least 150 sq ft per day without breaking into a sweat. I would take the plunge and get a machine like that , an expensive item doing nothing is is a mighty strong incentive to find lots of work for it. There is a learning curve and you will waste some media and will need a laminator at some stage. You need to put together a stunning portfolio on various media and you need to market yourself. Bank on just breaking even for the first 3 months and make sure you have a decent amount of working capital for rolls of conumables. you will obtain and retain customers if your work is excellent quality , you deliver on time and your price is reasonable - most customers want quality and service and price is generally a secondary (but important) concern. Before you actually jump in , do some market research as to the size of the market , what machinery you competitors have , what thier prices are etc. Dont try undercut radically - you will lose money that way. You need to learn a little or a lot about printing in general , colour modes etc etc - most of these topics are well covered on the internet - no one can teach "design" - either you have it or you don't - if it looks right and reads right , it is right. Get the fastest computer you can , most modern computers will run anything - you must have worked on a design package on a puter - use whatever you know best - just about any package will output to the printer - Corel , Photoshop or Adobe illustrator and freehand are the poular ones. I don't think you can start up with less than $20-25k if you want to do it right - never underestimate this figure - if you run into cash flow problems , it can break you easily.
Posted by Terry Whynott (Member # 1622) on :
Chuck, that's Mark Pinske at Laird Signs. I've always enjoyed driving that stretch between Manitoulin and Sault St. Marie looking at all his billboards.
Posted by Jason Schultz (Member # 4281) on :
WOW.. thanks again everybody...
The information here has been overwhelming.
So, with all this great advice, I think I will just try to freelance out of my home for a while and farm everything out. When I see how the market is then I'll decide on a direction.
I really like what Rodney had to say, and, that is the direction I'm leaning in right now (for later). I don't really plan to do any 3 dimensional signage ... maybe way down the road.
I would still like to get a vinyl printer/cutter and do small jobs.
![[Frown]](frown.gif)
So, I need to start as small as possible. ![[Dunno]](graemlins/dunno.gif)
![[Thanks]](graemlins/thanks.gif)
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
And you WILL have fun!!!
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