I know this sounds elementary, but how do you clean glass window for vinyl application? I have had trouble with masking tape sticking! Even after 3 cleanings with window cleaner and alcohol. Is this humidity?
Posted by Doug Allan (Member # 2247) on :
If I say... RAPID PREP
Roger's long search tenticles should pick up the resonance & he will personally appear to give more specifics, but it sounds like a greasyness that may be in your window cleaner could be the culprit.
Posted by Curtis hammond (Member # 2170) on :
i would guess that you are trying to clean a commercial window. Likely it was washed with a commercial window cleaner that has silicon in it that makes the window shine. Once you get past this with rapid prep you will have to trouble
Posted by Jonathan Androsky (Member # 2806) on :
Hey Jim. Yep, Doug rubbed the magic Rapid Roger gennie bottle.
Sounds like a grease problem that good ol' RapidPrep ought to fix. If you're real nice to Roger, or say RapidTac 10 times fast, you can get a niffty little freebie sample kit box thingie of all 5 Rapid products...Right Roger?
Posted by roger bailey (Member # 556) on :
Here I am, (thanks guys) yes it sounds like you are adding to the problem with glass cleaner.
E-mail your address for free samples or go to my site for the "distributor locater" mail@rapidtac.com www.rapidtac.com
There is also a F.A.Q. section there, will give you specifics about "window applications".
Roger Posted by old paint (Member # 549) on :
i aint gettin in this one...
Posted by Mike Languein (Member # 319) on :
O.K., I will no doubt rue this day, but here goes a freebie to the vinyl jockeys - Bon Ami.
Forgive me, Si & Old Paint - I can't stand to see the Blind continue to lead the Blind.
Posted by roger bailey (Member # 556) on :
Hey Mike, thats kinda like "compounding" a window, or rubbing it out isn't it?
Roger Posted by Mike Languein (Member # 319) on :
Bon Ami is a very fine abrasive, and I think if it was used on plastic it might dull the surface sheen. But it's what sign painters have used for years to clean glass prior to gold leafing. It is absolutely without additives. The cleaners mentioned above and others, like GlassWax add material to the surface and that is counter productive. Windex doesn't clean like a good Bon Ami scrub. I've used ammonia and alcohol and finally when using Bon Ami there is still dark residue that comes off onto the rag - it makes the glass "Squeeky Clean". I always clean twice before working on glass. When the dry BA residue comes off easy it's clean! There are also some windows that nothing will stick to, very aggravating. I've had them that Duct Tape would just fall off of. Not a matter of cleanliness - something in the manufacture. There are some grinding compounds, Rick Glawson sells them and I've tried it but don't notice any advantage. They supposedly add a little "Tooth" to the glass. Windshield repair guys have some stuff they use, too, to polish out flaws in glass but that's going a lot farther than we have to just to clean a window.
[ August 05, 2002, 10:13 PM: Message edited by: Mike Languein ]
Posted by Peter Manzolillo (Member # 1062) on :
I'll let you slide, Mike, but just this once...
Posted by Mark Fair Signs (Member # 289) on :
when you can drag a knuckle across the glass and it "squeaks", then it is "clean".
bon ami seems to work best.
just my humble opinion.
mark
Posted by Ernie&DianeBalch (Member # 1301) on :
Bon Ami all the way. Of course you get a workout on big windows.
The only thing that works better is a chromic-sulfuric acid mix. But you don't even want to think about using it on windows.
ernie
Posted by Si Allen (Member # 420) on :
Hey Mike....don't stick me in with Ol'Paint! I use Bon Ami for gold leaf jobs! Rapid Roger's Reagents for normal stuff!
Posted by Dave Grundy (Member # 103) on :
I'm with Joe..You guys duke it out!
Posted by John Thompson (Member # 2750) on :
For windows, which I did one today on a the car pixed in the portfolio, this particular one was RainX'd to death, I use Rapid Prep UNTIL the window is squeeky with a finger slide (which was several times) and then I clean it one more time with Rapid Prep. Then I clean it with Rapid Tac II once or twice and then I wet apply with Rapid Tac II. Job is done in less than 5 minutes with NO bubbles and it sticks like a MUTHA! I changed a logo I did on glass with Rapid Tac II the other day and dadgum if that was the best I've ever seen something stuck to glass. Posted by Jeff Bailey (Member # 1975) on :
Thanks John. Were glad Rapid Prep came through for you. It's amazing how hard some people like to work when an easy solution is at their finger tips ( bon ami ).
Posted by John Thompson (Member # 2750) on :
I couln't imagine using Bon Ami on a job like that car I did today. I do jobs like that ALL the time. I have NEVER had a failure using Rapid Prep and Rapid Tac II on glass. I do them on cars where the windshield wiper hits the vinyl and NEVER had one fail even with that. What is amazing is that I have been doing a lot of trucks a cars lately, lots of small jobs I do on the spot like 4X4 decals and the like and most times, I do them while the folks watch and I get this almost every time..."what are you spraying on there?" I'll tell them I am cleaning the surface so the vinyl will adhere longer and last longer. They almost always say "You know, I've gotten a lot of graphics like this before and you are the first guy who did that, everybody else just wiped it off with alcohol and stuck it on, now I know why it peeled off in a month or so" Hmmmmmm. Cheap or Lazy? Reckon what it is? Posted by AdrienneMorgan (Member # 1046) on :
adrienne, glad to see you are safe and sound in your new home. i always knew you would arrive safely.
now back to the thread,
like i said earlier, no matter what you clean that window with, "it ain't clean til you hear the "SQUEEK"
i prefer the knuckle of my right pointing finger. (sorry, no clipart available at this time.)
don't be afraid to clean that window with windex and a little added ammonia. repeat until you hear that squeek.
mark
Posted by roger bailey (Member # 556) on :
Hummmm, Windex and ammonia??
Thats good for viny right?Ha ha ha ha ha ha
You better check with the vinyl manufacturers first though ! Roger Posted by old paint (Member # 549) on :
ok...got to add my 2 cents.....FOR MOST APPLICATIONS RAPID PREP IS THE BEST! ok roger? now for that really really nasty window....the ones that set right off the street, gets hit with the water from the rain and is throw up by speeding vehicles going by,putting road oils and other stuff on the window, also the exhaust fumes that diesel produce and also other autos produce which tend to attach themselves to glass, and hasnt been cleaned in 2-3 years untill this guy wants some sign on the window.......THEN YOU NEED TO USE BON AMI....only way to clean all that crap off the window....then clean with RP. I CAN SAY THIS CAUSE IVE DONE THIS!!! i tried RP 1st. and laqure thinner, the cleanser gets all the crud off. also buy a CHINA MARKER pencil, if you can draw a line on the window with one of these....its clean, if its not clean, it will not mark the window and it will skip across the road film.
Posted by Jonathan Androsky (Member # 2806) on :
After calling up the Rapid Geenie, I will say that I do have a Bon Ami cake in my kit.
For day to day VINYL applications (which is what Jim is talking about) I use the Rapid Prep. It's been a long time since I havent been able to get a squeaky clean window with just a few cleanings of RP.
If I'm doing gold leaf though, I go for the Bon Ami every time. Someone once told me that Bon Ami acually helps give the glass some "tooth". Weather that's true or not I don't know, but it sure works good. Seeing someone use a Bon Ami cake rather than a squirt bottle with a lable on it also adds to the mystique of glass gilding, which in turn allows one to upcharge the work a bit, and aids the reputation of the craftsman in a world of "quickie stickie" sign shops.
My $.02
Posted by roger bailey (Member # 556) on :
Op, yes, when you got water stains and the like, you will need more then Rapid products !! Infact, I use a product made here in Hawaii for "water spoted" glass, (maybe I'll offer this guy a deal)?
Jonathan, I agree, when doing the "gold" for many years "bon ami" has been the tool of choice (its more work) but, sometimes thats what the job calls for!
Roger Posted by Mark Matyjakowski (Member # 294) on :
Looks like youz guys have the what to put on the window ... what to get it off. Crumpled up newsprint (un-printed newspaper) works much better than paper towel (IMO) for the scrubbing ... then squeegee off the final spray down.
Posted by Kenneth Sandlin (Member # 3014) on :
Looks like Rapid Prep and Bon Ami are the ticket for cleaning glass for vinyl application where IPA is not sufficient.
I will say that most, if not all, "glass cleaners" like Windex and the like are absolutely the wrong thing to use. Ammonia and similar cleaners leave BAD residues on the glass that will many times cause adhesive failure.
If you've been using Windex type products previously and have not had a failure you have been lucky and I recommend stopping immediately. (same goes for Latex painted substrates, a constant headache for all vinyl manufacturers ).
Posted by Raymond Chapman (Member # 361) on :
Kenneth, what's the problem with using vinyl on latex paint? I've been doing it for years with no problems.
Posted by roger bailey (Member # 556) on :
Thnks Ken! I also have done applications on latex, but thats a very "shaded" area, depends on the type of latex, its age, the type vinyl, oh yeah, and the juice !!
Roger Posted by old paint (Member # 549) on :
i also have had problems with latex paint backgrounds!!!! the latex does not "flaten out like oil base paints do!!! no matter how you apply it it tends to "orange peel" and then vinyl will not conform to all the dimples. ive put vinyl on a latex background, come back the next day and it was all layin on the floor!!!!
Posted by John Thompson (Member # 2750) on :
I won't do any more vinyl applicatiomns on customer painted substrates (except for vehicles, then I play it by ear) because of failures. I have seen "never drying latex" paint before and paint that looked dry but when you applied vinyl, it got wet again just under the letters...hmmm? I beleive it is the brand of product. All of my "latex" failures were admitted by the customer to have been "Dollar General" "BIg Lots" or the famous "I don't know where I got it, I just found it downstairs" paint. Anytime I do vinyl on paint, I frog juice it. Posted by Mike Languein (Member # 319) on :
Oooooops! That post about newsprint jogs my feeble old memory! I don't know why it should work better than paper towels, maybe because some paper towels leave paper fuzz on the surface - but regular old vinegar works wonders for cleaning windows. I don't know about it cleaning off water spots. __________________
BTW - I never meant to disparage any one's product, if you're used to using it and/or peddling it here - I don't use any vinyl and don't know Jack Diddley about it. Just dispensing my 2 cents' worth...use what works.
Posted by Rick Sacks (Member # 379) on :
I had a big gold job once and the windows had been treated with one of those Rain-X type products. After many attempts to get the glass clean, I walked away. I got it clean enough for tape to stick, but the gold would release when the window was washed. Glass is apparently pourus, and the residues don't all get removed with surface cleaning.
Posted by Desire Rusovsky (Member # 2876) on :
Hi Rick,
You wrote:" Glass is apparently pourus". More exactly, glass has microfissures or microcracks (I don't know exactly in English). Because of theese microfissure it's totally impossible to make an aquarium with doublesided tape, the water will infiltrate in this fissure and release the bond.
Glass is an amazing thing. According to Physic it's not a solid but a liquid ! An hyperviscous liquid, but nevertheless a liquid. With the time a window glass become more thick at the base and more thin at the top. It's mesured in angstroms but it can be verified. Posted by atog254 (Member # 494) on :
Ok, maybe I'll get up and dance on this one, since I only do glass etching I clean a lot of glass and glassware before I apply my stencils, which a great deal of those are vinyl.
My stencil supplier put me on to this trick years ago to eliminate any residue from most other over the counter glass cleaners!
FORMULA: One table spoon of Dawn dishwashing liquid to one gallon of water. Sounds too easy!
If anything else, it is a cheap general purpose cleaner. Works for me.
SC
Posted by Kenneth Sandlin (Member # 3014) on :
Latex substrates would probably be a good subject for a new topic as I'm sure a lot of folks would have something to say (as we've already started to see here;) ).
Raymond, either you have been using an exceptional brand of latex and allowing extensive curing times or have just been very lucky. Which brand are you using, is it the only one you use?
Latex paints leach surfactants (soaps) to the surface over the life of the product which will cause failure. Also there are plasticizers in the latex paint which can migrate to the solvent adhesives in many pressure sensitive films causing failure.
Posted by Raymond Chapman (Member # 361) on :
Kenneth, I guess you might call what I use "exceptional", but really it is just a quality product. Mainly the latex paint is either Sherwin Williams Super Paint (in times past)or more recently Porter 100% acrylic from Gary Anderson (Rhino Paint Co.). The only vinyl that I use is Gerber 3M High Performance.(Sorry, I've never tried Oracal)Sometimes the paint sets for a few days before vinyl application but at other times I will paint in the morning and apply vinyl in the afternoon or the next morning.
Or then maybe I am just "lucky".
Posted by Santo (Member # 411) on :
Hi Kenneth Welcome to the board. I get a little concerned when a reference to surfactants is made and the only description comes up as soap. My Webster's paperback dictionary does not even contain surfactant. While I wholeheartedly agree that natural soaps are surfactants, the reverse is not necessarily so. Synthetic detergents and a multitude of chemical make up the group that define surfactants. Latex paints have chemicals to enhance properties. Each manufactures has individual formulas. Although I conducted "Independent Chemical Reshearch" in college over 30 years ago, this is not my area of expertise. Here is a link related to surfactant products for a variety of uses includeing paint formulation. Surfactants and Defoamers Posted by Kenneth Sandlin (Member # 3014) on :
Thanks Santo!
Actually I have to admit cheating a little bit on that one. I was told long ago by the top expert here that latex paints leach some type of chemicals to the surface often causing vinyl failure (he may have described them in more detail but I only remembered the gist of it).
So, to be sure I had accurate information for my post, I called Sherwin Williams' technical department to find out exactly what type of chemicals those might be. The tech person there described it in just the way I related it here (leaches surfactants -soaps in layman's terms- over the life of the paint, and contains plasticizers, both of which could contribute to adhesive failure).
Posted by Santo (Member # 411) on :
I agree that is exactly the action taking place. But I see a surfactant as a chemical or compound that allows another liquid to wet or lay up on a surface or material. I have a definition in a book dealing with wetting of geological material(rocks), I'll attempt to find the book tonight.
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