Summa has a new thermal printer cutter, the DC3, coming out in July... SummaDirect This should make things really interesting for us who have been waiting for the right print/cut machine. Check out SummaDirect for details. Their web site says under $30,000, but the ad in Digital Graphics says $24,995. Hmmm...sounds like theere is finally a good competitor for the Edge?...with built in cutter and 36" wide printing...
Think Gerber has anything new coming out soon?
Posted by Chuey (Member # 2112) on :
jim, is the cat out of the bag early? how about filling us in!!!please!!! thanks, chuey ps, can't wait to see my samples
Posted by Jim Doggett (Member # 1409) on :
Hi Chuck:
Yep; the cat's out a bit early. I guess the folks at National Business Media were anxious to get the July DG out early.
No sweat; I guess it's now public at "Under $30,000" is $24,995 US. Also, we have some new improvements in strip printing with our OptiTrac™ and DotZero™ technologies. Best of all of course is the integrated cutting.
Thank you for your interest. I'll post complete specs, material cost, etc., at the end of this month ... in the Suppliers' Soapbox of course.
Best Regards, Jim
Posted by Chuey (Member # 2112) on :
jim, thanks for the reply. i am really looking forward to to getting all the info on the dc3. thanks, chuey
Posted by Bob Burns (Member # 268) on :
If you're truly interested in a BIG thermal transfer setup, you could probably pick up a GERBER MAXX for practically nothing. The warehouse is loaded with these unsaleable "anchors"!.....right, GLENN?
Posted by Glenn Taylor (Member # 162) on :
I wouldn't know. I don't have one. I'm to busy making money with my Edge right now.
BTW, when are you gonna buy a real thermal printer, Bob? Ain't ya tired of that toy yet?
[ June 18, 2002, 10:21 AM: Message edited by: Glenn Taylor ]
Posted by Bob Burns (Member # 268) on :
Glenn, When a $8000 PC60 thermal transfer printer that prints 22" AND cuts too, works as perfectly as mine does, why spend 30 big ones on a machine that can't do those things? Aren't you glad you asked?
Posted by Brian Diver (Member # 1552) on :
I don't understand why more companies don't make more 24" & 48" printer/cutters. Those 2 sizes are what I would use most and I would assume many sign makers use just because they are easy standard sizes of materials. Bueller? Educate me Bueller?
Posted by Jim Doggett (Member # 1409) on :
Hi Brian:
How's about 36 inch ... right smack dab in the middle?
Regards,
Jim
Posted by Brian Diver (Member # 1552) on :
Jim,
It's to small for 48" (a 4'x 8' sheet would have either a 1'x 4' strip of waste or a 2'x8' strip) and to large for 24" sign would have a 1' strip unless the sign was 6'long .
Will you sell material in narrower widths like 24" that will work on the new machine? I've read that a while ago you used to sell a 24" printer (before I got into business) and for a one person shop, 24" is probably about all I feel I could handle without getting help for installation. I'm probably in the minority but it's a thought.
I can't wait to zip down to your office and check out the new machines. When will they be on display?
Posted by Jim Doggett (Member # 1409) on :
Hi Bob:
The only reason to upgrade from your Roland is if your volume surpasses its print efficiency. If most of what comes out of your Roland is around $8 a square foot, and you can produce for $2 a square foot using an alternate technology, your aggregate production cost may be higher than Glenn's, even factoring in the equipment.
On a 36 month lease, $1 in monthly payment gets you about $33 in equipment. If each sqare foot you print costs you $6 more than it would on an EDGE, DC3, or whatever, that's $198 worth of equipment - every time you print a square foot. So at around 40 sqaure feet per month, you're doubling the cost of your equipment.
I'd encourage everyone here to look at their aggregate cost of production, especially on the color printing side. A hotdog vendor needs to buy sausages and buns for about what his/her competitor does ... paying more or less for the grill is a minor cost consideration. Our industry is not too different ... albeit hotdogs taste better than vinyl
My $.02,
Jim
Posted by Jim Doggett (Member # 1409) on :
Hi Brian:
You could see one now. We have a couple of preproduction units in Seattle, which are frequently updated to the latest firmware / controllers / whatever.
Also, in the US there are a bunch of 24 and 48 inch cutters, which drives media widths (finished). Web widths are 48 and 60 inches, for the most part. So efficient sizes are 12, 15, 20, 24, 30, 40, 48 and 60, because there's no offcut.
The DC3 takes 40-inch material and prints 36.2 inches wide. 40-inch material is the only size it handles. We looked at variable width. But we made major gains in output quality and efficiency by maintaining a static width ... at least it doesn't have to be punched
Regards,
Jim
Posted by Glenn Taylor (Member # 162) on :
Hey Bob,
All that's fine. Just one thing. It doen't make any real money. After all, isn't that why we buy these things in the first place?
Heh heh heh.
**********
Hey Jim,
I look forward to crunching the numbers when the data is released. From the sound if it, Gerber might need to shake loose a few cobwebs.
[ June 18, 2002, 12:51 PM: Message edited by: Glenn Taylor ]
Posted by Bob Burns (Member # 268) on :
Jim, I'm a little one-man shop, so VOLUME isn't where it's at with me, so the PC60's initial cost and subsequent output does well with me. Glenn, I don't crank out the volume you do, but the PC60 makes me plenty o' bux for my little dinky business. There are lots of small shops out there in the same boat. The PC 60/600 gets you in the ballgame a lot sooner, cause if it sits for a coupla days, you're not scrambling to make ends meet. My FREE time is a whole lot more important than PRODUCTION time. LOW OVERHEAD is where it's at for ME, and MANY, MANY others out there!
[ June 18, 2002, 04:42 PM: Message edited by: Bob Burns ]
Posted by Brian Snyder (Member # 41) on :
Bob- How many sq. ft. does an OEM Roland ribbon cover (spot and process for the PC600)?
Posted by Bob Burns (Member # 268) on :
I'm only familiar with the PC60. 8 sq.ft. The 600 uses about 20% less I believe.
Posted by John Thompson (Member # 2750) on :
As far as paying an EDGE payment, I think that is why the cost of print and cut is driven down in my area. Get this $2 bucks for a 3 color spot 10" wide color flag. Is that right for an Edge print retail on HP vinyl? Howsa about $7 for a 10" oval decal with 4 colors spot on HP vinyl. Is that about right, I think that is way low isn't it? I see edge work in my area on stuff it shouldn't be on and for some way, lowball price and I think it is all to pay the payment. I really like keeping my low overhead too (I don't have any) but I will have to figure out a P/C solution soon.
Posted by Neil D. Butler (Member # 661) on :
Jim. who's the Canadian Supplier? Thanks
Posted by Glenn Taylor (Member # 162) on :
Bob, Trust me. Where the Edge is concerned, I am in no way scrambling to make ends meet. Quite the opposite in fact. Like I always say, it doesn't matter what the equipment cost, its how much you make with it.
Jim, Your "aggregate costs" comment is dead on. And personally, I prefer BallPark franks with mustard and chili. Posted by Jim Doggett (Member # 1409) on :
Hi Neil:
I'd have to refer you to our Neil, as he manages dealer sales in Canada. He'll know which of his dealers are handling DC3. Neil's e-mail address is neil@summadirect.com.
Hi Glenn:
Mustard and chili?! Dang it; just when we were starting to see eye to eye Next time you're in Seattle, we'll have to head over to Digity Dog ... they have a dozen or so varieties of sausage and every imaginable topping. Lunch is on me.
Best Regards,
Jim
Posted by Bob Burns (Member # 268) on :
GLENN:
Now let's see.....a guy with a small one-man shop decides to jump into digital. (let's round out the numbers) Colorcamm....$9000 Edge (and all the stuff you have to get to make it work).....$30,000 That's over $20,000 difference. So, the little shop owner, while paying off $30,000 , has to make a profit of at least $20,000 to break even! That's a lot of money for a little one-man business to have to deal with right up front! OK, eventually you start making money you can keep, if you don't get burried in the process. Unfortunately, lots of little shops have gone into this business on a wing and a prayer....some of them very talented with lots of hope and maybe a family to feed. That $20,000 can keep him from going belly up while he's trying to make a go of it. Granted....many will fail anyway, but why put the guy in cement shoes(for you Joisey guys) when he doesn't need to go that route! What it comes down to....if you can afford it, and you want the Gerber system.....BUY THE DAMN THING!!!
[ June 19, 2002, 12:51 PM: Message edited by: Bob Burns ]
Posted by Bruce Evans (Member # 44) on :
They just never listen to those that have both................
Posted by Glenn Taylor (Member # 162) on :
Bob,
The $30k system you're speaking up is the top of the line model.
Actually, you can get get everthing you need - Edge, plotter & software - for around $15-16k. That's brand new, not used.
Even the basic system can run rings around any of the ColorCamm models.
[ June 19, 2002, 11:20 PM: Message edited by: Glenn Taylor ]
Posted by jimmy chatham (Member # 525) on :
Bob you sound like my dad. a car salesman was trying to sell him a new car and he told him his old car would do the same thing the new car would do. get him where he wanted to go & back. Posted by Doug Allan (Member # 2247) on :
As long as bOB :)is getting to where he wants to go (& back) I'm happy if he's happy.
But for those who havn't jumped of the cliff into digital print/cut technology I will attest to my one-man shop experience.
I put 10k down for a $24,000 Edge/Envision/Omega package I also got a 5K loan to remodel my office. My Edge payment is about $330, (I paid the 5K construction loan off after 18 mos.) & yesterday (being a typical day), I made $160 profit out of the $200 price of some re-order decals. It took me about half an hour to find the file, print & cut, weed & tape. The rest of the day was spent prepping MDO, cutting regular vinyl letters & doing a van install. Also collected half down of $800 sign job I sold, & $200 is for design work to create graphics that could only be produced digitally. My Edge samples really helped me get that job.
Anyway, based on yesterday I can make my edge payment in about 1 hour a month.
[ June 19, 2002, 06:41 PM: Message edited by: Doug Allan ]
Posted by Bob Burns (Member # 268) on :
That's the concept, Jim!
Doug...you work to hard!
[ June 19, 2002, 06:45 PM: Message edited by: Bob Burns ]
Posted by Bob Rochon (Member # 30) on :
Just to chime in here,
I'm excited about the new machine from Summa, Still a little big for my needs but at least they are closing in on a smaller format market. I would love a 24" or 30" machine but any bigger than that is too big for one man to handle material wise.
As for the Edge, My edge pays for itself, and makes me a nice profit. If more guys could get past the " what is it gonna cost " versus " how much can it make me" the price would'nt even be an issue. There isn't too many Jobs that the Edge doesn't help me to be more profitable on.
You can say what you want about Gerber, but if it wasn't for them, we'd all be pushing brushes still.
Posted by Brian Snyder (Member # 41) on :
Bob- I'm a small "one-man" shop. I have an EDGE 2 and Envision 375 (and a 30" Ioline). I put $1000 down and have a 4 yr lease to own program. 18 more months and its mine! Its under $600 a month. If you can't profit $600 a month with Edge prints you're doing something wrong. I just printed and cut 8' of calendared vinyl with one spot color an hour ago and profited $100. Took 10 minutes. In the 30 months I've had the system I'd have to estimate I've put a hundred 50 yard rolls of vinyl through it (15,000 feet). Thats an average of 25' per day. I don't think thats an unrealistic amount for a small one-man shop.
Like Glenn says, "it doesn't matter what the equipment cost, its how much you make with it."
Posted by Bob Burns (Member # 268) on :
I'd like to see anybody make money with an EDGE in a market of 34,000 people, and 27 sign shops. I'm the only one with digital in the whole county, a $600 a month nut on one piece of equipment would give me pause! This is a small town with LOTS of competition....cut-throat pricing,etc. I price rather high, and do custom jobs and I don't want to work too hard. Having "payments" cramps my style! And since I'm doing all the digital I want,I'm having a nice day! I've been at this since you had to mix powder in white paint to get color and it's been a nice, fun, profitable journey without the encumbrance of "overhead". So if I'm doing something wrong, pleasetell me!
[ June 19, 2002, 10:01 PM: Message edited by: Bob Burns ]
Posted by Brian Snyder (Member # 41) on :
If we had 27 sign shops in the area tomorrow that would mean 2/3's of them closed up! Posted by Dave Grundy (Member # 103) on :
I just sub it out! I make money, the other guy makes money, the customer pays the money...EVERYONE is happy!!
What could be simpler?????
Posted by Jim Doggett (Member # 1409) on :
I'm with Bob, even if I wish he'd spent money on our stuff
You gotta scale your capabilities to your market. Not the other way around. Folks will tell ya that "Field of Dreams" marketing works ... especially equipment sellers. But machines don't drive customers to your door. Good marketing does; and the best marketing comes from knowing the market.
Until enough clients are buying color from Bob to drive his material cost over the cost of more effecient equipment (by a goodly margin, consistently, since the equipment purchase isn't backward scalable the way materials are), Bob's doing EXACTLY what he should.
IMHO,
Jim
Posted by Bob Burns (Member # 268) on :
FINALLY....COMMON SENSE......Thanks Jim!
Posted by Bruce Evans (Member # 44) on :
Bob, if there's 27 sign shops and you're the only one in the county doing digital.....common sense tells me your not making the most of a good opportunity.
Sounds like the perfect place for an Edge.
Posted by Steve Burke (Member # 2674) on :
this post reminds me a bit of the last wrestling show I saw ( I don't watch it- I was flipping).
A whole bunch of guys all sitting there LOOKING, from outside the ring, like they are beating the tar out of each other but in the end, it's all in good fun!! Everyone walks away. AND you don't have to wear Speedos to do this!! Posted by Bob Burns (Member # 268) on :
Bruce, Give some thought to this: 1. Read my previous post again. 2. Is it possible the other 26 shops don't have an EDGE because there's either no market, or they're all dumber than I am. 3. I'm in a market full of retired people, cowboys, and trailer parks. Hell, they barely accept VINYL.....never mind digital! 4. The ONLY reason I have any digital at all, is because I'm a little nuts and "somebody" had to do it, and I get ALL of what little there is of the digital in my area. Sure, I could "beat the bushes" a bit more, but I'm as busy as I wanna be, I have 4 computers; a PC60; a PC12; an old Roland 1100 plotter; and a 42" HiFi Jet PRO. I've got 80,000 fonts; a bazillion pieces of clipart; most of the sign programs plus Corel, Photoshop & more. I've got 8 different Photoshop plugins, too. There ain't much I can't do with all this stuff I have, but there's a whole lot I won't do! I also have NO OVERHEAD, and NO PAYMENTS, I don't install or deliver, and I don't paint! and I work a 4-day week! I'm 62, and tired and cranky . It's time to smell a rose or two. And I'm tellin' you and all the other GERBER-philes...I DON'T NEED NO EDGE! I got all the edge I need!
[ June 20, 2002, 04:20 PM: Message edited by: Bob Burns ]
Posted by aaronssigns (Member # 490) on :
Im with you bob...tell them the way it is!! if thats what works for you in your market and your making the payments doing good looking work and making a good living thats all that counts! to me i dont care what brand name it has on it as long as its doing the job and making $$$$$ and your happy
Posted by Neil Senior (Member # 2691) on :
You tell them Bob!
Why did you get the PC 12?, when you already had the PC 60
Hard to find any info on the PC12 Please give us a review of it & if you like it
Do you find the slow cutting speed is a problem? How does the output compare? Do you use non roland cartridges in it? or the PC 60 Do you do any wax fabric transfers? All info would be appreciated
Thanks a lot Neil
Posted by Bob Burns (Member # 268) on :
The PC12 is great in a pinch, especially if you're out on a job with a laptop. It's slow, but who cares? I aint goin nowhere! It doesn't take the place of a PC 60/600! The 12 is merely a low priced entry machine to get you into digital. If you have little or no budget, and you can't stand NOT being into digital, the PC12 will do nicely. Or get the EDGE!! hahaha I just to little stuff on the 12 when I HAVE to...the PC60's the workhorse! I do graphics, lettering, stickers, hats & shirts!
Posted by John Thompson (Member # 2750) on :
I love it, this is a classic Ford vs. Chevy debate ain't it yall. The Mustang is always faster that the Camaro ain't it?
Posted by Richard Doyle (Member # 2919) on :
Im with Bob on this one too
I own a PC600 and have used the edge 2
although I think the edge is a better quality machine I am more profitable with the roland because I only print a few jobs a month and the $200 to $300 more a month plus another $100 to $200 for a vinyl cutter would have put me out of business a long time ago. I use my pc600 primarily as a cutter its the only one I own. my town is smaller than Bobs and low overhead is very important in a small area like ours. we need to offer as many services as we can without going bankrupt in the process.
[ June 21, 2002, 12:51 PM: Message edited by: Richard Doyle ]
Posted by Bob Burns (Member # 268) on :
NOW THERE'S A GUY WHO ISN'T SITTING ON HIS BRAINS! Posted by George Perkins (Member # 156) on :
quote: You can say what you want about Gerber, but if it wasn't for them, we'd all be pushing brushes still.
I agree wholehardedly, cept I get the feeling I'm looking at this statement from the flip side Posted by Jon Aston (Member # 1725) on :
I've been resisting the temptation to wade into this discussion 'cause I hated like heck to help advertise for Jim and his new printer (nothing personal, Jim). I also wanted to be sure that I had a chance to dawn my flame retardant suit...
...but as it turns out, this thread has indeed returned to the age old "The Gerber EDGE rules and [insert printer here] drools!" vs "Why I was too smart to buy a Gerber EDGE" debate.
I'M NOT TRYING TO SELL YOU ANYTHING WITH THE FOLLOWING STATEMENTS, BOB -- AND YOU UNDOUBTEDLY KNOW WHAT IS BEST FOR YOU. HOWEVER, ANYONE ELSE LOOKING IN ON THIS SEEMINGLY ENDLESS DEBATE SHOULD CONSIDER ALL OF THE FACTS BEFORE MAKING THE WRONG INVESTMENT FOR THEIR BUSINESS.
What are your goals? If you are young and energetic and growth oriented (or are of any age and energetic and growth oriented)then you need to develop a business plan which probably includes investing and re-investing in capital equipment; on a cyclical basis.
Understand this: No single piece of technology is a solution to all of your challenges. You still need to do some good marketing and learn to sell in order to be successful.
BOB AND OTHERS CONCERN THEMSELVES WITH THEIR LOCAL MARKET -- WHICH IS FINE (See "What are your goals?"). However, even within a small, local market -- even a highly competitive one -- you can still be highly successful. Let's not forget that globalization is still taking place all around us. The rapid expansion of liberalized trade around the world in recent years greatly reduced the costs of marketing and distribution to previously unreachable markets.
The Gerber EDGE (and all that goes with it) is capable of producing far more products for you to sell to existing customers than any other machine on the market. Lower production costs and higher margins will speed ROI, giving you the opportunity to reinvest in new capital equipment in shorter cycles. This, in turn, gives you the opportunity to lead the technology wave and outperform your competitors.
One last recommendation for anyone looking in on this thread would be to work with a vendor/partner who has an upgrade path to offer and the knowledge, experience and vested interest in not only helping you grow your business, but to help you manage your growth.
OK. Flame away. I am a bad boy.
[ June 21, 2002, 05:55 PM: Message edited by: Jon Aston ]
Posted by Bruce Evans (Member # 44) on :
Colorcamm: $8,000 Inspire, Flexi or whatever you use to rip: $3-5K
Edge, plotter & software:$15-16K
Seems like the prices really aren't to far apart to me....what am I missing here? You'd realistically probably make up the difference by the time you got through your first set or two of foils. Some may have beta-tested Inspire and didn't have to purchase it, but the average shop is really gonna need something like FlexiSign to design and RIP. What's Flexi selling for these days?
Granted, Corel can get you bye.....but we know that a real RIP needs to be had.
Posted by Danny Palmer (Member # 95) on :
I can only speak from personal experience. I owned a PC-60. We went through 5 print heads in 6 months. I certainly can't kick about Roland. We had the cadillac warranty. Every time we lost a print head, we had a new machine in 48 hours.
We and they finally gave up. We bought it to use it, and we used it heavy. It definitely could not meet our demands. The supplies were very expensive. I was fortunate to get out from under it.
We had decided that if we ever venture back to producing decals and such, we would lean towards the Edge. Now, we will at least take a serious look at this new machine.
I have owned a Roland PNC1210 plotter for a good many years. At best estimate we have sent about 450,000 yards of material through it. It has never failed one time.
So I guess along with cost, one has to consider what you want to use it for, and how many hours per day that the thing is going to run.
Posted by Jim Doggett (Member # 1409) on :
Hi Jon:
Welcome to the debate. Please do dawn (sic) your flame retardant suit. You’ve made some rather bold and unsubstantiated statements that merit a response, not least of which:
quote:The Gerber EDGE (and all that goes with it) is capable of producing far more products for you to sell to existing customers than any other machine on the market. Lower production costs and higher margins will speed ROI, giving you the opportunity to reinvest in new capital equipment in shorter cycles. This, in turn, gives you the opportunity to lead the technology wave and outperform your competitors.
More products? How about a 3 x 5 window or backlit print that needs to be unpaneled? The EDGE is among a very select group of printers that can’t do something that common.
I’m with you on the ROI. It rules. But when it comes to operational cost, the EDGE is the one that drools. Both our ribbons, and those of Matan, are well below the cost of even ZeroNine’s knock-off ribbons – even at the 20 unit price.
Lead the technology wave? Isn’t the $16,000 Go Digital combo about 10-year old technology? The cutter cuts at what, a blistering 4 inches per second. You gotta admit, Gerber dug pretty deep into the closet on this one. Technology that’s a bit newer – say around 4 years old – is still about 30 grand; isn’t it? In fairness to Roland’s $8000 printer-cutter that’s been compared to here, at least that gets you Roland’s newest ColorCAMM technology, which has evolved quite a bit from the original.
How about labor? Sign makers should at least pay themselves minimum wage, IMHO (heaven forbid they’re paying someone else). With all the manual ribbon changing, paneling of cramped width images, and cutting on separate equipment, how many labor hours are we talking about in the course of a year? That’s bound to be a pretty big number ... and what’s a business owner's time worth hour? 5 bucks an hour; 10; 20?
Take your statement above and replace Gerber EDGE with Summa DC3 and you’re a lot closer to the truth. $25,000 gets you a 36.2” print width; 6 color automated ribbon changing; automated contour cutting; color registration that’s tighter by orders of magnitude; media feed and take-up rollers; and RIP software that’s exponentially faster than Gerber’s. Plus ribbons that are refillable by design, and considerably lower in cost than OEM EDGE ribbons.
Nothing personal Jon. Regards,
Jim
Posted by Bob Gilliland (Member # 28) on :
Jim,
I do not wish to speak for Jon, nor do I want to give the appearance of being an “Edge” defender (although I’m sure it will look that way). I mean no disrespect to you personally or Summa in general. I realize what both of you gentlemen do for a living and how that “may” bias how information is presented. My “bias” is from an end users standpoint, the guy that purchases and uses these products to garner an income in “real world” conditions.
I have stated both privately and publicly that theDC3 machine is a piece of equipment that should garner some serious attention for anybody looking at getting into thermal printing or upgrading their current thermal equipment. Just as in any possible purchase, the consumer should look at many factors to determine the warrants of acquisition.
“My” interpretation of Jon’s comment regarding more products is based on the fact the Edge systems can print on more then just vinyl. No denying that the 11.8” panel is an issue for some; so in your stated 3 x 5 example, yes the Edge is not a viable option if a seam will not be acceptable. In my example, the customer wants (50) 15mil, custom shape contour cut, 2” x 4” three spot color magnetics. Can the DC3 do that? What about label stock, security stock, semi ridged plastic, thermal transfer stock, 30mil magnetic stock, etc. As in your example, the Edge is in a very select group that can’t deliver, but in my example, it’s in a very select group that can deliver. I’d be happy to edit the above content or post a follow-up if the DC3 can print to the same various amount of substrates.
The fact that an “Edge” system is two separate pieces of equipment (separate printer and cutter) and the DC3 is both in one machine is a wash for me. “I” like being able to keep them separate. If combined, that machine is either printing or cutting, not both at the same time. Also when combined, if sent out for service, I lose both operations of the equipment. Again, for myself, keeping two separate machines allow for greater production flexibility, which often negates the small amount of additional labor required to transport and setup between two different machines. Again, the above sentence or two is not to be interpreted as a “negative” in regards to the DC3, or other combination units for that matter, but just an observation that it is sometimes beneficial for some while at the same time, detrimental for others. Nothing more, nothing less.
And yes, the edge is a very mature machine in this market segment. But then again, I see posts here from some very mature folks painting, striping, and carving by hand. They, just like an Edge, are still a viable “machine” in the market place. Thanks to the efforts by Summa, the DC3 has added some life into a “somewhat” stagnate color thermal market place. (not slighting the Roland folks for the CC-600) Looking forward to seeing future posts from people that take the DC3 plunge. At this point, looks like a winner of a machine to me! Posted by Bob Gilliland (Member # 28) on :
quote: has added some life into a “somewhat” stagnate color thermal market place.
The above statement is from a “consumer-market” standpoint. I believe many things are happening behind closed doors at the various manufactures in relation to color thermal printing.
Also, the recent Matan offerings and associated options have added somewhat to the “excitability” in the color thermal arena. Perhaps not as much specifically to the general sign segment of the market, but to the thermal market as a whole.
Cheers!
Posted by Bob Burns (Member # 268) on :
Hey Jim... ....some people just don't get it, do they?
If you have the market, and the "down" money, knock yourself out! Some of us don't have the "down", and/or don't want those monthly payments. Some of us don't really care to be "God's Gift" to the world of signmaking! Some of us just want to do some work, and have some free time, by staying relatively "small" with as few "headaches" as possible! I, personally, don't want to put myself in a position of having to justify how great my equipment is, having spent 25 or 35 grand, when maybe I've bit off more than I could chew. The equipment I presently use does absolutely everything I want it to, so why plunk down a small fortune for no reason! The colorcamm vs. edge vs. summa is all apples, oranges & bananas. Anyway, having what YOU think is the better hardware,doesn't necessarily get you the work! Why not start comparing one of those billboard printers to everything we're discussing! Now THERE'S a BIG PRINT! If you want it, and you can afford it...GO FOR IT...and live with your decision!
[ June 22, 2002, 11:54 AM: Message edited by: Bob Burns ]
Posted by Jon Aston (Member # 1725) on :
Well...for a guy who didn't intend to defend my position, you did one whale of a job, BG! I also admire your objectivity.
To be clear, JD, I did make the mistake of writing some pretty broad generalizations that really had nothing to do with your new DC-3 printer. There was no attack (personal or otherwise) intended. I don't really see the DC-3 as a direct competitor to the EDGE, to be honest.
Now before I get accused of being arrogant, I'll explain what was not intended be taken as an incendiary comment...
The Gerber EDGE is unique in the marketplace. To argue otherwise is ridiculous. It has had (and continues to have) an exceptionally lengthy product life-cycle: in comparison to any other product introduced to the industry within the last decade. WHY?!? Because the Gerber EDGE offers a UNIQUE combination of productivity, an unequalled versatility for market applications / solutions, and excellent cost-effectiveness. Any attempt to spin the FACT that -- even after 10 years -- the Gerber EDGE is anything less than the single best capital investment for more commercial sign shops...well that is what I would characterize as "digging pretty deep".
My comments regarding "leading the technology wave" weren't intended to imply that buying a Gerber EDGE today is somehow "leading edge" at this point in time. What I am suggesting is that this is the desired effect of developing (and executing) a sound business plan that hinges on cyclical re-investment in suitable capital equipment. Leading the technology wave or curve means gaining a competitive edge in the market place. As I stated earlier, no single piece of technology is a solution to all of a given sign shop's challenges -- not even the Gerber EDGE. The EDGE is simply a cornerstone to the "plan" I propose.
Let's debunk some myths about the Gerber EDGE now, ok? TENS OF THOUSANDS OF SUCCESSFUL EDGE OWNERS WORLDWIDE WILL CONFIRM THAT:
The narrow print width/panelling of the EDGE is a non-issue for 80%+ of their clients/applications. Most would add that the EDGEs unique ability to maintain print/print and print/cut registration accuracy over 50 yards of material is a BIGGER advantage. No, Backlit is not the EDGE’s forte BUT there are plenty of thousands of BIG, panelled, EDGE-printed signs out there – looking great and doing their job by attracting new clients and making people money. Incidentally: How do you go about making a 4 x 8 sign or wrapping a vehicle with graphics produced on a printer with a crappy little 36” print width?
Printing speed of 20inches per minute is (in most cases) more than adequate. There are 480 minutes in an eight hour day, after-all. Where more speed is required, let's not forget that the Gerber EDGE2 prints at up to 3 times that speed. All the while you can be cutting other jobs on your separate cutter.
Having the EDGE printing while a separate cutter does its own thing is EXPONENTIALLY more productive that the all-in-one approach.
I was fortunate enough to see a "canned demo" of the (prototype?) DC-3 at ISA, in Orlando, on request (the machine wasn't running continuously, so far as I could ascertain). As I recall (could be wrong), the job was an 8-by-8 inch(approx), 4 colour process crest; repeated over no more than about 1 foot of 3M 7725. Under ideal conditions, printing/cutting a very small run of decals, the results looked great. I couldn't help but leave the SUMMA booth feeling somewhat skeptical, however. A far wider variety of 15inch perforated materials (including many unique EDGE Ready Materials are far more readily available than are 36inch materials. Additionally, 36inch materials don't "yield" particularly well from common web or trim widths, either -- so -- in addition to short supply, you might expect some higher media costs. It is highly unlikely that there will ever be the "critical mass" of 36inch devices installed in the marketplace to invert this particular scale of economy...this all adds up to making a 36inch printer a glorified (sorry) 24inch printer, in reality.[/I]
I realize that my comments could be construed as somehow mean-spirited, but this -- in my opinion -- is the reality: Your competition is Roland and the ColorCamm; not Gerber, nor ND GRAPHICS, nor the Gerber EDGE.
Whatever the case -- and for whatever it is worth -- I wish you well, Jim. I’m someone who happens to believe there is plenty of room in the market for all of us -- and that competition brings out the best in us.
Lastly...
BOB: I GET IT! YOU DON'T NEED AN EDGE OR WANT AN EDGE AND YOU ARE HAPPY WITH YOUR COLORCAMM, ETC. YOU ARE HAPPY WITH YOUR BUSINESS AS IT IS. WHY FIX IT IF IT AIN'T BROKEN? AM I RIGHT? GOOD FOR YOU! YOU ARE CLEAR ABOUT WHAT YOU WANT AND KNOW HOW TO GET IT. SOME OF US PROBABLY EVEN ENVY YOU FOR THIS.
[ June 22, 2002, 01:39 PM: Message edited by: Jon Aston ]
Posted by Bob Burns (Member # 268) on :
Jon gets it....(sigh)....! Posted by Jim Doggett (Member # 1409) on :
Hi Jon:
“Crappy” though it may be, 36.2 inches is what many users have requested, suggesting that 3-foot panels are more manageable than the 50-inch prints that come out of our Summa DC2 printer ... regardless, we offer a choice.
Covering one side of a 20-foot cargo box on the back of a delivery truck requires 20.55 EDGE panels, with no panel overlap -- call it 21 with a minuscule overlap. Also, each of those 21 panels requires multiple manual ribbon changes. Just producing the graphic is close to an all day project.
With a Summa DC2 (35 grand including a 53-inch cutter and software), it’s a 5-panel job with an inch of panel overlap. And the graphics can print while you’re sleeping.
With the 25 thousand dollar Summa DC3, it’s 7 panels ... again, with printing while you sleep, go to lunch, or find some other use of your time that’s more productive than standing by the printer.
Also, while your skepticism brewed as you watched a pre-production Summa DC3 printing and cutting successfully on the ISA show floor, it’s worth noting that Gerber’s long overdue MAXX was hidden away in an invitation only hospitality suite. And if MAXX ever comes off of technical hold, it only prints 34 inches. Considering it’s 40 to 50 grand price tag, and that an additional 10 thousand dollar cutter is needed to contour cut MAXX images, I’d argue that the product is already obsolete.
A ColorCAMM could be construed as entry level. However, you’ll forgive me if I’m not buying that a 16 thousand dollar EDGE 1 system is an entry-level or gateway product. With wide format solvent machines closing in on 20 grand, Summa DC3, and Matan’s recent offerings, I’m sorry Jon, I really don’t believe that a reasonable argument can made for EDGE being a stepping stone ... especially given the fact that it’s a closed architecture platform that marries you to Gerber products, for which there is currently no growth path ... and forgive my skepticism about that changing anytime soon. Gerber is hemorrhaging cash, they’ve sold off their land and buildings, and Gerber stock, which was once close to $30 a share, is now under $4 (believe me, I ain’t droolin’).
But that's just my, highly-biased, opinion. Sign makers are the only ones that can settle the argument, moving forward.
Best Regards,
Jim
Posted by Jim Doggett (Member # 1409) on :
Hi John:
Oops, forgot to clarify. Summa DC3 prints on 40-inch material ... the image can be up to 36.2 inches. My sense is that your width analysis, which effectively reduces a 36-inch vinyl roll printer into a 24-inch printer, applies more to the MAXX. You may want to restate that should you find yourself selling a MAXX.
Just My $.02,
Jim
Posted by Bruce Evans (Member # 44) on :
Jim, I'm a little curious about your new machine. I've always been a bit skeptical about them because of the banding issues with the colorcamm. We had a guy come in our shop several months ago offering wholesale durachrome printing. What was the kicker is that he dropped of a sample print. The print had banding that was worse than that of the colorcamm! Seemed like he could have al teast disguised his samples a little better.
Maybe there's some real tinkering you can do to minimize these bands, what it just seems like costly time to me and something that you really shouldn't have to do.
The colorcamm was much the same. Bob seems to have the "Holy Grail" of PC60's because I also ran Inspire with the PC60 and just got the same results as I always did. It only seems logical to me that there is absolutely no way to not have a band. The colors either have to overlap or else there will be a white band. Only way the I ever hide those overlap bands was to clearcoat, which shouldn't be needed.
Some people use the argument of time it takes to change the foils....about 7 seconds last time I did it! Maybe 30 seconds total for whatever you print? That's about .55 cents labor in our shop. Not too much in our eyes.
We are a shop that's currently shopping for large format. We are taking serious looks at the Matan 36" machine and the Arizona 180. I'm curious as to what kind of speed the DC3 is outputting at? I'm also curious as to how long that 20 foot box would take to print since that is the kind of job we do mostly. Let's assume it's a 9ft x 20ft print(4-color). I believe it would be an hour job on the 180 and about 20 minutes on the Matan (one side only). What would the print time be on the DC3? I'd be curious to see a print sample of a spot color that took, say 4-5 ribbon passes. What materials qualify to run on the DC3?
Posted by Amy Brown (Member # 1963) on :
Hi Jim. I do not own any digital printing equipment. I have work with an Edge a little bit but don't know a whole lot about it. I think that you can print screen printing positives and also direct to their line of magnetic sheeting. Are these two things possible with the DC3 or any of your other printers for that matter.
Would like to own something one day but it won't be anytime soon.
Thanks!
Posted by Jim Doggett (Member # 1409) on :
Hi Bruce:
If you're exclusively running 4-color, 3-foot wide printing, go with Matan. It's limited in what it does, but what it does, it does very well. My only caveat being, that ribbons that wide are prone to wrinkling ... I think Matan has tried to address that, but look into it.
Hmmmm. Solvent Arizona? If you run it continually, perhaps. Plus, you gotta laminate. Solvents that eat into the face of the substrate make the face of what you're printing on highly susceptible to abrasion. Claims are made that solvent don’t require lamination. But in the real world, solvent printer users laminate (buy AZ output; it’ll be laminated). And it too can have apparent banding.
Summa DC3 is not designed for speed. Its purpose is versatility and automated operation. It prints at around 35 to 40 Ft˛/hr ... continually up to about 450 sq ft (actual image area) without any operator intervention. And you can print process, spot and metallic foils onto large paneled images, small to 36” wide labels (automatically contour cut), etc. Go home for 11 or 12 hours, and come back in the morning to find both sides of the truck, and more, neatly wound onto the take-up roller.
Printers that do not run unattended, or require start-up and shut-down maintenance routines, will only work when you do. Our products work 24/7. If you have more work than a Summa DC3 can handle in a week’s time, get a 1/4-million dollar Scotchprint system -- you can afford it.
Also, I didn’t see the sample you received. It could have been printed on cheap vinyl, may have used third-party ribbons, or been an operator issue. I can send you Summa DC2 samples that’ll blow you away, but I won’t say that it’s flawless. Some lighter blues and grays are more apt to show banding. That’s an issue with strip printing, which is employed by SummaChrome, DuraChrome, Summa DC2, ColorCAMM and Gerber MAXX printers. The reason is that minute variations in film caliper (even within the same roll) will affect the distance that the media advances. Some pixel overlap is needed to allow for that, which has a slight effect on pigment density where the bands align ... most noticeable on light blues and grays.
Summa DC3, the fourth generation strip printer in the Summa line, employs an entirely new approach to media advance, which completely overcomes media advance problems that are the result of media caliper changes. We call it OptiTrac and DotZero, and I won’t bore you with the techno-babble, but it reduces banding in the light blues and grays by better than 90%. It’s a huge leap forward in strip printing.
Thanks for your interest and inquiries. Call our folks at 800.527.7778 if you’d like more info or samples.
Best Regards,
Jim
Posted by Jim Doggett (Member # 1409) on :
Hi Amy:
No sweat on not buying a printer anytime soon. But when your volume demands one, please keep us in mind
Currently, yes to screen positives; no to magnetic. Since we don't print on magnetic, let me shoot it down. But be allowed to withdraw my arguments should we find a magntic that works
Magnetic that's stonger than a typical fridge-magnet, wants to grab onto the printer (ours are not made of plastic). For a vehicle door, you should use thicker magnetic than can run through a printer. Plus magnetic is pretty spendy. Waste some extra vinyl; but lay it onto the magetic effecienty. And you get 100 percent coverage over the magnetic, which tends to be prone to marking.
We print on vinyl, for the most part. The image can go onto anything that vinyl sticks to. That's fairly broad.
Best Regards,
Jim
Posted by Jon Aston (Member # 1725) on :
Am I annoying? I suppose that is my lot in life. I do strive to be helpful and kind, as I can tell you do, Jim.
Introducing the MAXX (which is currently irrelevant; and which I am on record for having criticised equally harshly) and also introducing GRB's stock price into the conversation is nothing better than a smokescreen, Jim. Sorry...but this is a sure sign of a weak argument.
You're also conveniently forgetting your belief in the concept of ROI if you think EDGEs don't make the ideal entry level systems...although admitedly for many they really are the be-all-and-end-all system.
Your comments regarding ARIZONA series printers sound a bit desperate, as well. No current thermal printing technology (not yours -- and not even Gerber's) is anywhere close to being in the same league as ARIZONA. With all due respect, I think you need to figure out what your niche is in the market and stick with it. Trying to compete with EDGEs and ARIZONAs is a surefire road to disaster (you think Gerber have problems?).
Once again, let me state (for the record) that I am not attempting to put you or your product down. I just don't think it is realistic for you to try to take on all comers.
Customers were asking for a 36.2" machine? Really? Why not develop a 48" or 60" thermal machine? I'll sell 50 of them in Canada for you in the first year -- if you can get it right -- but you better hurry...or something marketable will come along and you will have missed the boat...just as you suggest the MAXX already did.
Food for thought?
Posted by Jim Doggett (Member # 1409) on :
Hi Jon!
Okay; now you're talking. I don't have a 60" thermal transfer machine, but DC2 can print on 48" no problem.
I'm not sure about territory issues or agreements. But Neil, our dealer, sales guy should ( neil@summadirect.com ).
Sorry for the weak arguments ... but it is the weekend!
Best Regards,
Jim
Posted by Bob Burns (Member # 268) on :
(OLLIE to STANLEY)...."Here's another fine mess you've gotten me into"! Posted by Jon Aston (Member # 1725) on :
Jim:
Why haven't you already sold 50 of your DC-2's in Canada? If you prefer to carry this conversation on more privately, via e-mail, please feel free.
Posted by Glenn Taylor (Member # 162) on :
What I wonder is "What does the public want?
...and...
"Why do we get what's offered?"
IMHO....
I would like to see an "Edge" type of printer that prints wider.
What does that mean? Well, the printhead runs the width of the material instead of back and forth like an inkjet printer.
Why? Well, with the printhead that runs the width of the material you gain two things -- no stitching (i.e. - banding) and a maximum output speed.
So, why don't they do that? Well, you run into certain problems with longer printheads. Printheads must maintain a consistant amount of heat and pressure while printing. And the longer the printhead is, the more likely it is to develop "cool spots". And, the longer the printhead is, the costs of producing the printhead rise exponentially. The technology used in my 24" Aspect (OYO) thermal imagesetter is pretty much the same as what is used in most thermal printheads. Yet, to replace it costs 5 times more than it does for a 12" printhead like the Edge.
So, what is the solution? Compromise. Machines like the ColorCamm, the DC series, and the Maxx use a smaller printhead to run up and down the width of the material. This gets the public the wider prints that it says it wants. However, output speed is lost and "stitching" becomes a necessary evil.
So, when looking for a digital printer, you are going to have to decide what is best for your market and what you are willing to sacrifice to get it.
[ June 22, 2002, 08:28 PM: Message edited by: Glenn Taylor ]
Posted by Bob Burns (Member # 268) on :
GEEZ GLENN....I find myself agreeing with you.....better pop a cold one! Posted by Jon Aston (Member # 1725) on :
Glenn...you really do have a way.
When I was asking Jim for a 48" or 60" thermal printer, what I was really thinking was a 48" or 60" EDGE. If such a thing could have been done, I think Gerber would have done it long ago.
None-the-less I would like to hear back from you, Jim, re the DC-2.
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