Hi all. I have 'met' Mark Roberts thru this site 'Letterville'. And have since received his price guide book and now his CD. I truly enjoy his words of wisdom and honesty. He tells it like it is, which is very important. (something I can definately relate to!)
Anyways.....I just wanted to say thanks Mark! I always enjoy your personal notes you include. You are quite the inspirational motivator. I love your pricing info and strongly recommend it to those who are interested in pricing right! Mark, you are pretty much right on. In other words: not so ridiculously overpriced and certainly not underpriced. You seem to be totally in tune with the changes happening in the sign business. I am sure others will agree. It is a helpful tool for all sign shops.
www.signprice.com Price Index Manual for the Commercial Sign Industry
Thanks again Mark!
Posted by Bob Burns (Member # 268) on :
MARK ROBERTS definitely knows and understands the "real" world of signs. Even though i agree with his book for the most part, it turns out that my pricing is generally higher. I offer the best turnaround in the area, and, because of current technology, I can do almost anything that's not screen printing, electrical, or installations, so I build that into my prices. I'm about 99% "in house" where the money is, and I don't pay no mind to the competition(hell, I do signs for THEM, too.....and since I'm NOT a wholesaler, I charge RETAIL). So, SIGN PRICING BOOKS & programs don't do me a whole lot of good.
Posted by John Thompson (Member # 2750) on :
How does his book compare to the signwriters book as far as being right on? Some of the Signwriters is way off base as far as I see but I have seen some in it where I charge more. And, do you really need the cd-rom also? I have been sitting down here today trying to figure out a "price list" and I just have to play it by ear not knowing what other sign shops in my area want for stuff. I have got to get away from the "I'll call you back in a little bit with a quote" syndromem, I am a firm beleiver that that creates the "can't you come down a little cheaper" syndrome. I want a price qutoe immeditaly giving a "firm" feeling on my price.
Posted by Felix Marcano (Member # 1833) on :
Ditto on that Cheryl.
Posted by cheryl nordby (Member # 1100) on :
John....sometimes the signwriters guide is pretty high. Which is why I liked Marks. I have had my own method of pricing for years. When I go to meetings it is certainly nice to have a large price guide handy for reference.
Posted by Glenn Taylor (Member # 162) on :
I have Mark's book and have found it to be pretty accurate for my area. I also think it's prices are a bit more realistic than Signwriters, at least to me anyway.
Posted by John Thompson (Member # 2750) on :
I would like to have a real, honest to goodness, professional looking book to go by. It would look like you have some sort of "industry standard" to go by. I think that people will be more likely to pay that price if it is a real figure out of a book and not off of the top of my head or on a piece of paper. I am going to order it tomorrow, what about the cd-rom though? Do you guys use it too? I have the signwriters and I have tried using a % method but I just still don't like it that way, seems like I still come up way off sometimes.
Posted by Barb. Shortreed (Member # 1730) on :
I can't let this slip by without getting in a word for one of our own Letterville Merchants. Jack Rumph, producer of the original Signwriter's Pricing Guide has been producing his product since 1969. I can remember numerous pricing seminars he did at Letterhead Meets through the year.
The Sign Contractor's Pricing Guide resembles other pricing guides people are familiar with. Drop by his website to learn more.
If you decide to go with Mark, please be sure to tell him you discovered him here in Letterville. A few sales may be just the added incentive he needs to become a Letterville Merchant. And don't forget! Have any new Merchant mention your name when they move to Letterville and we'll send you $50 for a meal on us. Posted by Felix Marcano (Member # 1833) on :
Sorry Barb & Jack Rumph, but I have the sign contractors' & one of these days I might use it to start up my grill if I run out of lighter fluid.
Its too bad we don't ever hear what Mark has to say about one thing or another on the BullBoard...
I really like his "Sign Consultant" Thing.
Posted by Wayne Webb (Member # 1124) on :
I use the Sign Contractor's Pricing Guide and have to use percentages:
Sandblasted 88% Vinyl Letters 60% Vehicle Lettering 56% MDO signs 70% Aluminum signs 60% Banners 60% and so on
Posted by Julian Braet (Member # 238) on :
I have known Mark for many years. We met while doing our "seminars & workshops" at SB shows.While I always had sucessful "seminars & workshops" teaching Airbrushing/Pinstriping, Mark's classes seemed to always draw the largest crowd & would be"over-booked".His professionalism is contageous! Mark's book is not a one man's idea on pricing, but a real cross section of pricing throughout the country. I know that he welcomes any ideas on how to improve the guide. One last note. When I give a customer a quote out of the book,(when heor she is in my office)my price is NEVER questioned. It sure beats the eyes in the sky "uh it'll cost ya about $150 bucks" routine.
Posted by John Thompson (Member # 2750) on :
I got the Signwriters book with my first supply order when I first started. I had no clue about pricing so when I flipped through the book I thought to myself "Man this awesome, I am going to get rich being able to charge these prices". Then a reality check hit me!
Posted by Brian Diver (Member # 1552) on :
I met Mark (& Mr. J) in seminars a few years ago and purchased Marks book. This was before I even got into the business. He is a great guy to chat with and really wants to help all of us out.
I also purchased the signwriters guide and have gone back and forth between them when there is something that I haven't done before. I've been kicked out of a few places while showing the price right out of the signwriters guide but for the most part now I use EstiMate software which really gives that professional touch.
Posted by Janette Balogh (Member # 192) on :
With all the criterias I could list for arriving on a price for any given job, I can surely appreciate the need for ANY price guides or programs that have sorted things out already and help with the confusion. Whichever one suits a person’s comfort level works!
Still, I scarcely poke my nose in a price guide, ... haven’t much in many years. My instincts are the tool I rely on more.
I, personally, have a special appreciation for Jack Rumph’s guides, and sieze the opportunity here to thank him for flinging me into the world of pricing signs on the right foot. Kind of a shame to see him getting slighted abit on this post, and ironic that it’s for the value he places on our work. I learned by his books back in the early 80's, and consistantly got the prices listed there, if not higher given differing circumstances. Being new in the biz then, I didn’t know to feel intimidated by those so called “big numbers” they were just numbers, and with a smile, I just let’em roll. Got the jobs too …. go figure! Kinda glad I learned to charge on a high note now! I still refer to his guide on rare occasions as a refresher on stuff that I don't do much of, like walls or gold leaf.
More and more my goals in business evolve to emulate those who already have the kind of success that I want. That strongly influences me in how I charge also. I’m continually learning to price, adjusting things by the guidelines of my own life’s changing needs and goals, and not the guidelines of a book. Learning to let the right numbers roll off my tongue, and speaking them with confidence has made the instances of anyone questioning my price few and far between. Staying busy with higher paying jobs has made the ones who baulk, easier to do without.
People who invest in themselves really impress me so I won’t neglect to mention that Jack pays to advertise here. As does Mark Smith from EstiMate who offers a great sign estimating software program. They give a good example for others to follow. Posted by Dave Grundy (Member # 103) on :
John...In reference to your not liking the idea of having to say "I'll get back to you with a price". Personally I find this to be the BEST way to get the most for my work. If the customer asks why I can't give him a price on the spot I just say there are too many things to be considered and I don't want to screw either him OR me. Never had anyone question that statement.
I DO have to do some calculations if the job is over $25. Cost of substrate, cost of painting backgrounds, cost of vinyl materials, my labour, my profit. If I just shoot from the hip one of us IS gonna get screwed, and with my luck it will be ME!!! I think it adds credibility to have to do some calculations to arrive at a price.
With all that said though...Make sure you set a short time frame to get back to the customer with a price...like... "I will call you, with a price, within an hour of my return to the shop" or something of that nature. Not a vague "I'll get back to ya"
Posted by cheryl nordby (Member # 1100) on :
gosh I hear alot of patting on the back again. (sigh)
Posted by Glenn Taylor (Member # 162) on :
In reference to Jack's Signwriter's Pricing Guide, I hope he'll take this opportunity to participate in this discussion. Rather than seeing these comments as a "slight" against SPG, I hope he'll see it as an opportunity to educate us. Heaven knows I could always use help in understanding and learning.
I've always looked at the SPG as a bit unrealistic in its numbers. This is not intended to be inflamatory or negative toward Jack or SPG, but rather my perception of what I see in his book compared to what is happening in my area/region. That said, how are the numbers in SPG derived? Why do the prices listed seem so much higher than other price books / software? Why is SPG right and the others wrong? Am I going about pricing things in an incorrect manner? What am I doing wrong? What can I do to get SPG's prices?
Again, I suspect Jack is pretty busy, but I really do hope he'll honor us with his participation. I know I would be very thankful. I hope Mark Smith will join in too.
[ June 06, 2002, 05:58 PM: Message edited by: Glenn Taylor ]
Posted by cheryl nordby (Member # 1100) on :
I was hoping the same thing Glenn. Also I do want to clarify something. When I post, I don't look at the merchants listed and post accordingly. I pretty much write about what I am excited about at the moment. Such as when I won some fonts from Sign DNA (Dave Simpson) awhile back, I recall seeing the 'scolding' that occurs from a certain individual, who so often proclaims their greatness on this board and seems to have an overabundance of self adoration. I do appreciate the fact that the merchants are a part of this board. I have used and do carry a signwriters pricing guide and have for years, although it does seem high. I also price the way I want yet find it very helpful having Marks price guide to take to meetings where there are several people to present prices to. It really does help.
People who are real and don't constantly pat themselves on the back impress the hell outta me.
Posted by Mark Fair Signs (Member # 289) on :
be more specific cheryl, who are these people that constantly pat themselves on the back?
please don't speak in generalities, spit it out.
Posted by Si Allen (Member # 420) on :
SPG too high??? Only if you are one of the "quickie" shops that consistanly undercut everybody!
I realize that, in some depressed areas, prices might be a bit lower....but not by much.
Remember...if you get more that 50% of the jobs...your prices are too low!
Posted by Mark K. Roberts (Member # 2239) on :
Here is my most unbiased opinion about how to price a sign. 1) What is the sign worth to your customer? 2) Is the sign advertising or informational related? 3) What does it cost you to produce the sign? 4) Will the sign deliver the proper return on investment for you? 5) Will the sign project fit into your workflow this week? 6) Will this sign cause you to work overtime and rob your family of their husband, wife, mother or father for the evening, or the entire weekend? 7) Do you have ample time to create a unique sign for your customer, or do they care? 8) Do you really enjoy the types of signs that you are currently pricing or bidding? 9) Would you rather be making other types of signs, but are trapped into making signs you really do not enjoy because you “own a job”? 10) Who are you pricing for? Your customer, yourself, your family, your future?
You see our industry is so unique and has so many variables that formulas, software, and yes ..even price books can only get us to an approximation. The true cost of any sign is not in the price, but how effectively is conveys the message for the customer. For informational signs, the perceived value is low; however for advertising related signs, value perception is determined by the customer, and he or she will pay whatever it takes to achieve their goals through the use of a sign. The choices you have to assist you in arriving at your selling price are many, including books from Jack and myself, and the finest pricing software I have found, which is the Estimate program from Mark Smith. In fact, I have all of these in my shop, and perhaps you should too. Gather all the facts and knowledge to arrive at a selling price that will not only be a value for the customer, but will also reward you properly for your hard work and skills that are necessary to maintain a healthy lifestyle and provide for a comfortable retirement. Begin with the end in mind. Show me your way, I’ll show you my way, but THE way doesn’t exist!
For you Letterheads in beautiful North Texas, be sure to drop by the "Showdown in Cowtown" this weekend. I will be teaching a new seminar: "Simple Sign Shop Success Secrets". I think you will like it.
Posted by Steve Shortreed (Member # 436) on :
No one is scolding anyone. Like most of you, we are in business too. Yes dear friends, Letterville is a business.
Let's say Cheryl letters all the trucks for Joe's Towing. Joe believes in Cheryl and the service she offers. As a result, he invests in her and her business. If someone asks Cheryl if she can recommend a towing company, I would hope Joe at least gets a mention.
It's no different here in Letterville. We have Merchants that believe in the website and pay to advertise here. When those that spend their advertising dollar elsewhere get a free plug, I see nothing wrong in recommending a Letterville Merchant first.
A website is different than a magazine. Magazines publish once a month and have complete control over their content and advertising. There is no free lunch when it comes to promoting a product or service in their pages. Why should it be different here?
We've seen several posts in the past from vendors upset over the copying and trading of their CDs. Who can blame them? The fact that it is easy to do does not make it right. The potential loss of income could result in future CDs not being produced and that would be a loss to all of us.
Free plugs and links to supplier websites have become a daily part of your posts in Letterville. We understand that most of this is just an effort to be helpful on your part. We're more than happy to see vendors get a couple free plugs. When we see a non Merchant mentioned, we always notify them and sing the vitues of Letterville. With an average of 10,000 people reading this BB daily, one has to wonder why everyone isn't a Merchant.
Running Letterville, like any business, is a balancing act. The knowledge, live meet promotion and all the good times are free. Advertising is another matter. Please put yourselves in our shoes. Instead of promoting or adding live links to non Merchants, why not contact and sell them on Letterville. In the long run, everyone benefits.
By the way, those seriously interested in taking home more from their sign business need to talk to Chip Carter. He'll teach you how to determine YOUR hourly shop rate and forget about what others are doing. You'll find him at www.sign-consultants.com
I got mine!! Good stuff and well worth every penny.
Posted by cheryl nordby (Member # 1100) on :
I can understand your point Steve.
Let's say Steve developes some land and forms a neighborhood. Anyone can move in. Steve then throws a free BBQ. Many neighbors arrive. Some bring food, others bring drinks and some just show up for the good time. There are 3 landscapers at the BBQ. Two are members of the club. They pay their dues. Several neighbors have used these landscapers services and are very pleased. One neighbor shows up all excited about the service she got from the non member landscaper. Others gather around eager to find out about all the different landscaping techniques. Each landscaper is very good at what he does and charges accordingly. There are all kinds at the BBQ which is what makes it so interesting. There are funny ones, some are serious. Many are down to earth. A couple are sitting up on some cloud. Most find the topics interesting and are happy to be having such a good time at the BBQ.
I would say the BBQ should not have been free. Next time only let the paying members in. After all we wouldn't want to learn anything new or debate any issues that weren't to our liking.
Posted by Glenn Taylor (Member # 162) on :
Oh what the heck. I say we do all signs for free from here on out. Waddaya say. It will sure save us some headaches trying to price them out! Posted by Bob Burns (Member # 268) on :
YOU FIRST, GLENN!
Posted by Mikes Mischeif (Member # 1744) on :
Dang it cheryl, It's midnight and I'm jonesing for BBQ.....
Posted by Steve Shortreed (Member # 436) on :
If everything is going to be free, we'll never be able to throw a BBQ. Posted by cheryl nordby (Member # 1100) on :
If some of the neighbors continuously have a mahl stick up their ass, this neighborhood will get mighty annoying. I really do wonder how some people fit thru their front door. Or perhaps they spend all day inside looking at how great they are?
Posted by Glenn Taylor (Member # 162) on :
Not me Cheryl. I'd rather look at pretty girls instead of this tired old mug any day. Posted by Mark Fair Signs (Member # 289) on :
I say if the mahl stick fits, wear it.
as mick jagger would say, "hey you, get off my cloud!" hahahahahahahahahaahahaha
Posted by Felix Marcano (Member # 1833) on :
Hey Guys, um, I wanted to take back what I said earlier. I guess it was unnecessary. I think Glenn said in nicer words what I meant:
"I've always looked at the SPG as a bit unrealistic in its numbers. "
Anyway, sorry. I feel I was out o'line.
Posted by Dan Antonelli (Member # 86) on :
Some day I hope to be as great as those in question here. Greatness being defined as people wiling to share, that continue to grow as artists, that inspire others, and that run successful businesses.
One shouldn't confuse ego with pride in their work and reputation.
Posted by Bob Burns (Member # 268) on :
DAN, There's not a whole lot of us out here that possesss the creative ability and business sence that you have. Most of us fall short on one or the other, or both in varying degrees. Many of us are doing this merely to make a living, others to satisfy their creative egos. All of it is OK, and it's all fruit salad made up of apples and oranges, which leads to all the frustration brought out occassionally on this board. Ideas are often conflicting both in a creatve and personal sense. We're ALL unique in our own way. LET THE GAMES BEGIN!
[ June 07, 2002, 01:23 PM: Message edited by: Bob Burns ]
Posted by cheryl nordby (Member # 1100) on :
Actually what the deal is, is being realistic. I see some claim to get zillions for every completely awesome sign they make. Everything they touch turns to gold. Hm. Imagine that. Yeah right. Try talking in a straight line sometime instead of talking in circles. I love this site when people speak truthfully and don't constantly pump themselves up. My O MY....I am just wondering how it feels to be so friggin perfect. My thoughts are, let others recognize you for what you are. If you have to constantly point out your greatness, I have news for ya, you aint that great. Rick Sacks is talking the truth on his most recent post. This is the way alot of sign meetings are going these days. Alot of people don't care what the signs look like, they just want them NOW and cheap. I felt Ricks frustration as I have been there. Rick does some awesome work, yet it still happened. This is frustrating and it brings inner conflict. One wants to do the best design for the customer. But one does not always get a zillion dollars for it. I have had my share of cheap customers too, but I have also had my share of great ones. Bob is also speaking correctly when he states that some can run their sign business as a little hobby. They have another income to help with the bills. They may not have kids. All I am saying is I could talk all day and some still just would not get it. I even tried typing slower and that didn't work either. Posted by Mark Fair Signs (Member # 289) on :
i am sorry cheryl but i really don't get what you are trying to say. who are these people you speak of???
do you blame these people for your lack of success in the sign business?
Winners expect the best. Whiners expect the worst. And you usually get what you expect to get.
2. Whiners ask “why me?”. Winners “why not me?”. Accept the challenge and find a solution.
3. Winners say “I can!”. Whiners say “I can’t”. You cannot achieve what you do not believe.
4. Whiners quit when the going gets tough. Winners keep going when the going gets tough. Keep going and know what the finish line feels like.
5. Winners know that TODAY is the only day that you have. Whiners are always wondering “what if”, and “if only”, and “when”.
6. Whiners say “what I do doesn’t matter anyway.” Winners know that what you do is ALL that matters. A well-lived present always adds up to a great future.
7. Winners focus on the solution. Whiners focus on the problem.
8. Whiners blame other people and circumstances for their problems. Winners believe that they have responsibility for their own lives. It’s not about sacrifice; it is about compromise.
9. Winners organize, simplify and automate. Whiners think “that’s just the way it is”.
10. Winners ask for what they want and need. Whiners complain…and nothing changes. Yes, you have the power to be miserable the rest of your life.
Act as if it were impossible to fail. Your purest, most advanced, and quickest learning took place when as a child you had no concept of failure. You learned to walk and talk because no one ever told you that you might fail.
"Your future is largely dependent on what you do in the present; you must focus on what you can do right now to create the future you desire." But I don't have this, or I don't have that, you might say. YOU are your own best resource. Look at your world through the eyes of someone who believes that it can happen...who doesn't even entertain the idea that it won't happen.
Positive thinking, positive expectations, visualization, and the power of attraction, while all valid and useful are passive. In the end, your success in life depends on what YOU DO. No matter how positive your attitude, there is only one way to succeed, and that is in the active mode.
Author Unknown
[ June 07, 2002, 02:20 PM: Message edited by: Mark Fair Signs ]
Posted by Doug Allan (Member # 2247) on :
One of the self imposed challenges I have found at "hosting" any small BBQ, party, or jam sessions for my musician friends is worrying about everyones happyness. (I also worry about how & when to drop the "y" in spelling)
Anyway it can be a pain to make sure everyone's having fun. Especially if ex-lovers or feuding former-friends, or just different-strokes folks show up to the BBQ. I really think the host should do what is within their own control & trust that other peoples impressions of what went down at the party will put praise or blame where it is due. Of course stopping an all out brawl is in everyones interest, but the ocassional free speech & expression of different opinions (not neccessarily the views of the host)should proceed. I'm talking about my BBQ's, not this one, but there can always be comparisons.
I see a lot of thought provoking topics that Cheryl posts & I enjoy reading them. Kudos to her for getting them started, but once they take on a life of their own I don't think she, or Steve need to feel any different about how this slice of life on the BB goes then any of the rest of us.
I really liked Jeanette's comments because stepping up to add balance to the slant of comments on Jacks guidebook is the kind of thing I find myself doing to smooth out any inequities in a social setting where my self-appointed diplomat tendencies make me worry about everyones happiness. I also was inspired or impressed with confident & self-assured references to her ability to set prices on-the-fly, accurately, & maybe at the high end of an acceptable range.
As for Steve's comments, I had to laugh at Cheryl's BBQ analogy because I have also felt that once we're allowed in the party (especially if we paid our cover charge) we should be ourselves & praise who we want, speak of how our business is run & what products we use. We are not campaign volunteers devoted to waiving the Letterville flag, or the merchant flag. we are individuals. If we all sat around promoting the handfull of paying merchants, not only would this place be too boring to get the "hits" it gets or command the advertising fees it already gererates, but we should be getting a share of the ad fee, not paying to help advertise, & censor any praise of outsider vendors.
Posted by George Perkins (Member # 156) on :
To all those that may have a maulstick up their ass, I have one simple request, when you turn arournd, please do so very slowly., I have paint in cups nearby.
Posted by cheryl nordby (Member # 1100) on :
OK Mark. I will type extra slow just for you. I think those I am speaking of know very well who they are. Either that or they are just so self absorbed in their own little greatness they just don't have a clue. Take your pick. A multiple choice will make it easy for ya. As far as 'my lack of success'. If you define success as making lots and lots of money and that is your main objective, then I am a complete failure. For the past 27 years I have pretty much 'done my best'. I have been solely self employed except for working at a sign shop for one month when I was first divorced. I stick up for what I believe and I certainly don't let myself get pushed around. Especially by little weasels such as yourself Mark. If you define success as being happy with yourself, bringing up 2 kids on your own, owning your own home, being honest with others and kind to your neighbors, then I am a complete success! I prefer to think of myself in this catagory.
I am really scratching my head on which catagory you are in tho Mark.
Posted by cheryl nordby (Member # 1100) on :
BTW mark. Please stop emailing me. Your stupid remarks just clarify which catagory you are really in.
I will however save the email you send me as well as some of the nasty ones you have emailed other Letterheads that I have saved and put them all in a nice big post for all to see. Woudn't that be fun?
Posted by Mark Fair Signs (Member # 289) on :
The Weasel
The Whiner
[ June 07, 2002, 05:00 PM: Message edited by: Mark Fair Signs ]
Posted by Mark Fair Signs (Member # 289) on :
go ahead cheryl,
did someone's widdle feewings get hurt by my e-mail and they had to send it to mama cheryl? it must have been "mama's boy" hahahahaahaha (you know who you are. LOL)
[ June 07, 2002, 05:09 PM: Message edited by: Mark Fair Signs ]
Posted by Santo (Member # 411) on :
Say goodnight, Dick!
Posted by cheryl nordby (Member # 1100) on :
Let me explain something to you Mark. (by the way...you are both a weasel and a whiner) but that is not my point so listen carefully as you just don't seem to get it. I truly love Letterville. Steve and Barb are great people. I have met them. There are tons of great people here. You are not one of them. I have so many people give me thumbs up on what I say to you. Remember what I said? I don't let anybody push me around. You are a joke. I think initially you have a sense of humor, but somewhere it gets lost. Not sure if it is all that empty space in your brain or what, but it gets lost somewhere, and then you become a real dick. Oh I know I am not supposed to call anybody names. OOPS. But guess what. I have more balls than you will ever hope to have. So don't dare me Marky boy. Because the joke would be on you.
Posted by John Thompson (Member # 2750) on :
All this ruckus over a signpricing post, well anyways I ordered my copy today and talked to mrs. Roberts a few minutes, Mark also e-mailed me yesterday and they both seem like really nice people. Yall simma' down now, simma' down.......... Oh and also, please don't anybody steal my maul stick and put it anywhere it shouldn't be please.
Posted by VICTORGEORGIOU (Member # 474) on :
If you clicked on your Letterheads button some night and the site was gone forever, how would you feel?
I can only speak for myself. Independent of the advertising thing, the loss as a visitor/resident "value received" would exceed the $50 resident tax.
Who knows, maybe if there were enough residents, advertisors would not be necessary.
Steve doesn't like us "hounding" people to join, but residency is good in the greater scheme of things.
With respect to referrals, it's a simple matter to start your call with "I found you through the Letterhead website and _______ thinks you are a great vendor" That always gets the deal off to a happy start, and might help the site if we all say it enough.
Vic G
Posted by Doug Allan (Member # 2247) on :
I think you brought up some good points Vic. I know I've been quick to defend what I consider our "rights" as members, but I know I would be very saddened to log on & find Letterville not popping up as my home page. I think visitors coughing up the $50 fee is much more appropriate then all of us having to gage our references, remarks & links according to who supports this site. But when a non-supporting vendor does get a plug here they should be told by any customers responding who sent them.
I don't want my Government representatives promoting, pushing or railroading us residents into the use & expense of products & services based on the providers monetary contributions.
What if visitors posts had an 8 hour delay? They would almost be experiencing the "full version" like shareware, but with enough of an incentive to become members & have more "real time" access. I agree that more memberships would lessen the need for merchants, & related dialog. Sorry if I just offended several visitors. Just thinking out loud here.
Posted by Shane French (Member # 2098) on :
I'm not sure how helpful this will be (or how long it will be before this thread gets nuked), but I'd like to say that what Doug has said about'censorship' is the exact reason I have not become a Resident yet. In fact, if this policy were reversed, I would join in a second.
I feel that there is a very real ambiguity between the way people are made to feel that they should 'support' the site vs. paying for the service that Steve and Barb are providing through it. I mean, is the site a source of income for you or is it a service that you are providing out of the goodness of your heart (so to speak)with revenues going to support the improvement/continuation of the site? I'm not trying to be malisciously facetious or stir anything up by saying this, I would really just like to know the answer.
I really don't have a problem with either one, if you are making a killing off the site, then more power to you. I am happy for you. Just please be clear on what your intentions are.
Anyway, that's just my feelings on the issue. I have no idea if anyone else feels the same way. Again, if the 'censorship' policy was reversed then I would join in a second, because it's not about the money. I would pay aLOT more than $50.00 to get the help/insight that I've gotten from the people on this board.
PS. And if there was an 8 hour delay or something like what Doug mentioned that would be a good way of getting the money out of me as well! :)
-shane
Posted by Rick Sacks (Member # 379) on :
One of the things I've collected over the years are pricing guides. I have them from the thirties and forties and every so often since. Western Sign Supply in LA had one in the sixties. The unions had them way back when too. When Jack Rumph and Judi Smith worked on the one out today, it was a real welcome. As time went on, Judi wrote the pricing guide into a dos program that many people use. If it were updated into a windows format it might be more practical. The Mark's have great programs also.
I still like to make two columns on a piece of paper. One for time and one for materials. I'll itemize the steps to produce the sign, including driving to get lumber. Put the numbers in the right columns in dollars for materials and in quarter hours for labor. Tally it up and add a profit and compare that to the pricing guides and your gut feeling. I often find it actually costs me more to produce a sign than the price I wanted to sell it for. I like to do this type of check periodically on different types of signs just to see if I'm in line. More often than not, I find the guides to be more in line than my gut feelings for coming up with a price that can provide some savings and family vacations.
Posted by Si Allen (Member # 420) on :
Shane....nothing is really free! Yes, this site is a source of income for Steve & Barb....but ...it is a full time job for them!
They have to pay for the server, PLUS put in 8 to 10 hours a day to keep this ite going and answering Email concerning the site! I know tha becaus when the spent 2 weeks visiting us and attending Cal. Conclave, theywere on 2 comuters, mornings and evenings...all relating to dealing with this site!!!
All BB have to have some sort of monitor...to keep things from exploding and degenerating into name calling, porn and general free for all!
Just my $2.98 worth!
Posted by Jeffrey Vrstal (Member # 2271) on :
I agree with Rick's idea there...
You SHOULD run tests overy so often to check your prices, your costs, your time.
These price books are a great guide with a lot of helpful information. If you can use the book exactly the way it is written and price all of your work with it AND come out way ahead or even a little ahead at the end of the year, that is great!
Running tests on your business is also a way to determine for your self if you have improved, become more efficient, Eliminated a step while maintaining quality and on and on. Looking back at your tests over the years lets you know how the world, your business and your skills (and bank account) have changed. We learn from the past and with this BB we learn from each other.
Posted by Shane French (Member # 2098) on :
Hay Si,
I agree 100% (I kinda have to, cuz if I **** you off, you might stop giving me advice)...
I don't have beef with Steve & Barb making $$$ from the site at all. I'm just expressing to them what is keeping me from whipping out my wallet and plunking down the $50.00. So if they care to hear my thoughts as a potential 'resident' then cool, otherwise, hey, that's cool too; it is their site, after all.
In any event, I have no beef whatsoever about even the 'censorship' thing. It's their site and they can do anything they want with it. I'm just making my point and moving on...
-shane
Posted by Bruce Bowers (Member # 892) on :
**** Note the winking smirking face ****
Shane,
It is a beautiful thing that you no longer have an issue with the "censorship thing", have no problem with Barb and Steve making a living providing this awesomely informative (somewhat like SignCraft, Sign Business, and others do in print)website and bulletin board, and you appreciate the ramblings of our resident Arab sign painter Si. Me, too... Si is bigger than I am. He may be older but he has experience on his side. He told me that age and experience will kick the crap out youth and enthusiasm every time! I believe him.
All this being mentioned, the check should be in the mail tomorrow, eh? Make it out to "Letterville Website". You should mark "Residency Taxes" in the memo section.... it is tax deductible, you know...
Have a great one!
[ June 08, 2002, 01:18 AM: Message edited by: Bruce Bowers ]
Posted by Shane French (Member # 2098) on :
Bruce,
Didn't say I didn't have an issue with the censorship, just not a 'beef' there's a difference, see?
And no, I have absolutely no issue OR beef with them making HUGE mounds of cash, PILES even! (Not that they do).
But, if the 'censorship' were to stop, then I would become a resident right away. And I wouldn't send a check, I'd put it on my credit card, just so we could all have instant gratification.
-shane
Posted by Joey Madden (Member # 1192) on :
I love you Cheryl
I love you Cheryl
I love you Cheryl
Posted by Mark Fair Signs (Member # 289) on :
joey, did you double dose on the viagra again????
Posted by Bob Burns (Member # 268) on :
GET IN LINE, JOEY......BEHIND ME!
Posted by Glenn Taylor (Member # 162) on :
Shane,
I don't think Steve is censoring anyone. Every successful BB has to have a moderator (a very thankless job). Otherwise, all you'd have is anarchy. Then,those who truly want to learn and to share would leave because of all the crap that insues.
Steve'n'Barb have a tough job. Its not easy trying to balance the wants and needs of the participants with the wants and needs of the advertisers.
This is the number one sign-related BB on the web. Steve'n'Barb must be doing something right.
Posted by Joey Madden (Member # 1192) on :
Bend over, I'll drive!
BOB, ON YOUR WAY FROM ARIZONA TO WASHINGTON, YOU CAN STOP IN OREGON AND PICK ME UP, I'M RIGHT OFF THE FREEWAY. I speak with Cheryl landline and appreciate her genuine down to earth ability to carry on a conversation without the crying and whining she has been accused of by the central scrutinizer. If only one or two could actually utilize the correct colors and design, that would be Cheryl and although she may lack diplomacy at times, she is on the money is my book.
Posted by Bruce Bowers (Member # 892) on :
Shane,
Call it a "beef" or an "issue"... same thing. You will always find some reason not to send the money.
You are just playing a punk card.
Have a great one.
[ June 08, 2002, 10:32 AM: Message edited by: Bruce Bowers ]
Posted by cheryl nordby (Member # 1100) on :
Awww Marky boy...I just don't feel the LOVE coming from you. And you can imagine how upset that is making me.
-------------------yeah right-----------------
Posted by Jon Aston (Member # 1725) on :
The feuding that goes on around this place sometimes is really stupid and childish.
Don't get me wrong: I love a good, passionate debate as much as the next guy. I just think that when it gets personal, THE SMART THING TO DO IS JUST IGNORE IT. Take the high road. Turn the other cheek. Pretend that person doesn't exist. SHUN them into silence.
Why waste all of the creative energy you've been blessed with on such trivialities?
Don't like my suggestion? Then ignore it! Posted by Bob Burns (Member # 268) on :
Hey Joey, If I was to go to Washington, I'd stop by and see ya', but I sure as hell wouldn't take you with me!
Posted by cheryl nordby (Member # 1100) on :
hey Jon...I do agree with you....but as you can see neither YOU or I have chosen to ignore it. Sometimes the only way to handle the bullies and fatheads is to NOT ignore them but not let them shove ya either. Now what was this topic about anyways?
Posted by Bob Burns (Member # 268) on :
YOU KNOW, I REALLY DON'T CARE WHAT GOES ON ON THE BB.....IT'S A "FORUM" SO SAY WHAT YOU LIKE.....BUY FROM WHOEVER YOU LIKE, SLAM ANYBODY YOU WANT TO. STEVE AND BARB HAVE A BUSINESS TO RUN HERE, AND THEY SHOULD RUN IT ANYWAY THEY LIKE! I PAY MY $50 AND GET MORE THAN MY MONEYS WORTH IN INFORMATION, ADVICE, AND ENTERTAINMENT. I POST OR DON'T POST, AND I DON'T CARE WHAT ANYBODY ELSE IS DOING WHEN IT PERTAINS TO MY BUSINESS PRACTICES, AND I EXPECT OTHERS TO DO THE SAME. EVERY GROUP HAS IT'S KNOT HEADS....AFTER A SHORT TIME ON THIS BB, WE LEARN WHO THEY ARE....SO EITHER SLAM 'EM OR LEAVE 'EM ALONE.....WHO CARES! THE PROBLEM WITH KNOTHEADS, IS THAT THEY DON'T KNOW THEY'RE KNOTHEADS. IF THEY ONLY KNEW THEY WERE KNOTHEADS, THINGS WOULD BE TOLERABLE. SOMETIMES IT TAKES A PERSON WITH BALLS TO TELL THOSE WHO SHOULD BE TOLD! BUT BASICALLY, I DON'T GIVE A RAT'S PATOOT! I GOT A LITTLE BUSINESS TO RUN, AND A LIFE TO LIVE!
Posted by Shane French (Member # 2098) on :
Bruce,
I'm sorry that you're so upset about this, sir. But from my perspective, there is a difference. I don't think that Steve/Barb have a problem as far as the 'censorship' thing goes. Like I said, it's their site, and they can run it any way they want.
What I am telling you is that I will not pay the $50.00 because of this policy. That is, I have a problem with the policy that is keeping me from joining.
So please don't judge. If that policy was changed, i'd join, and that's that. I said in my first post up there that $50.00 is not much to pay, and I meant it.
In any event, I am not trying to slam Steve and Barb in any way. I am just trying to communicate to them what is keeping me from joining. Perhaps they will listen to what I've said and change the policy, and perhaps they won't. In any case, I respect them and their site/their rules.
Lets all have some respect, shall we?
-shane
Posted by Frank Weidman (Member # 3004) on :
This is just my opinion,1st I like what Bob said for $50 you get information, advice and entertainment. I am a visitor for the time being, and when I have family taken care of first (trying to buy a house and open my shop all at once) I will become a resident. I have been looking for a site like this for awhile. Lastnight I had a good conversation with Si, Steve, Del and a few others. And for $50 I see it as a contribution to thise site and Steve and Barbs great effort to keep this up and runnin. And the difference between a resident or visitor to me that is, is that link at my left saying resident download Cant's wit to see what is in there (feel like a lil kid opening a cracker jack box, want to know what is my surprise is)
Right now tho, I do appretiate this wonderful site for all the knowledge that I have used and will use in the future. And when the time is right, I will pay my dues to keep this site up so when the next guy like myself finds this site and can meet nice people like yourself.
Thats all..........oh was i suppose to say somethin about pricing?????
Posted by Doug Allan (Member # 2247) on :
I'm not sure exactly what Shane means about consorship, but since there was a reference to my use of the word, I will clarify my thoughts. I agree with Glenn, that a moderator is an essential part of the board & Steve & Barb are serving us in that capacity without truely censoring reasonable degrees of free speech.
On the other hand, I do feel a little too much push for us to keep the fund-raising needs of this site in mind during our participation in the site. I have spoken out against a policy on another board where a direct request for information cannot be answered with a link to that information if that source is not a board sponsor. At least that is not a problem here. We are free to praise Mark's book & critique Jack's if we want.
The fact that we are encouraged to hint that Mark pay a sponsorship fee when we praise his products, or to tread lightly on Jack's product if we critique it is the area of my concern.
If someone is already in my store spending money, they are not required to hawk my wares to any passers-by nor do I make them wear an Island Sign t-shirt or slap a bumper sticker on there car. Advertising my business is my job, & if my customers choose to make referrals that's a bonus. On the other hand if a bunch of tire kickers are standing around chatting in front of my sign & blocking the door, but not spending any money, I will eventually ask them to move along.
Posted by Marty Happy (Member # 302) on :
Shane,
Obviously you are a man of great principle. If you find this site distasteful and objectionable according to your principle(s) then you should leave and never give this BB another look or thought. This is not a co-op or political function where any one of us get to vote or influence the rules. We are guests in Steve and Barbs 'house' and a such abide by their rules and hospitality which I feel is way beyond generous. If we are able we should bring the 'beer' and our respect for fellow guests.
Refusing to become a resident on some personal principle is probably the lamest excuse I have ever heard. Especially when you make it clear that it is affordable and a practical expenditure. I can respect someone who cannot afford to pay the tax because of financial difficulty but needs to access this site to better themselves professionally. Personally I could think of better ways to spend $75 in Canadian funds because I still struggle financially after being 'downsized' out of a long term job and a nasty divorce not to mention a huge investment of not only my own funds but time and energy in my own business without any outside support.
Normally I don't engage in controversial posts but disrespectful people and especially those braggarts who rub our noses in their huge financial success without 'bringing beer' to Steve and Barbs 'party in their house' tend to get a rise out of me.
p.s.: for those hard of understanding 'beer' is an analogy for 'taxes'. I'm not sure Steve and Barb would appreciate numerous shipments of beer to their home!(LOL)
Posted by Glenn Taylor (Member # 162) on :
I think it depends on which brand of beer. Posted by Donna in BC (Member # 130) on :
Posted by Rick Sacks (Member # 379) on :
ditto to Donna's comment!
[ June 08, 2002, 07:41 PM: Message edited by: Rick Sacks ]
Posted by Shane French (Member # 2098) on :
Hi Marty,
It seems that what I have written has come off as a personal attack or something akin to it. If that is the case, then I am truly sorry. Really.
But I don't think your remarks are fair. I never meant to imply that I have huge financial success, the only thing that I said was that $50.00 is cheap for the kind of info I have access to here. What is so wrong about me voicing my opinion about my feelings on this matter that it makes people become so defensive?
I am willing to accept the idea that I could be wrong about this, but it really is my gut feeling that it is not the way that it should be. This place belongs to the Shortreeds, and they can run it any way they want. I'm just communicating to them, and to the rest reading, that if this were not the case, I would join. I'm not saying that the Shortreeds are bad, or lame, or punks (to use some of the popular terms), I'm just saying that this is the issue that I have with becoming a member.
I also take issue with your comment: "Refusing to become a resident on some personal principle is probably the lamest excuse I have ever heard." Really? Do you really mean that? First off, there's no excuse-making going on. No one challenged me about why I had not yet become a resident yet, I laid this out without a challenge, initially. That's not an excuse, it's a 'visitor' commenting on a thread.
The only thing about your comments that really upset me is where you mentioned disrespect. Have I been disrespectful? If I have, please tell me where, and I will apologize. The last thing that I want to do is disrespect anyone here on the board, even those of you who are attacking me. It doesn't make me feel good to cut others down or make them feel crummy, which is why I will always refuse to respond in-kind to posts like these.
This thread took on an emotional curve from the get-go, so if my comments have upset any of you, I apologize. But I stand by what I said, because that's how I really feel. Perhaps I'm wrong about this, but I don't think I am. If you think I'm wrong, why not explain to me in a respectful way why you think so?
-shane
Posted by Glenn Taylor (Member # 162) on :
OK Ok...I suppose that is Donna her eyes at me. I know. It was a bad joke...ok, terrible joke. Sheeesh...tough crowd today. Posted by Bob Burns (Member # 268) on :
To anyone on this "string" who this applies to.....Take a deep breath,"WE'RE RUNNING LOW ON MAHLSTICKS"!
[ June 08, 2002, 09:17 PM: Message edited by: Bob Burns ]
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I think it adds credibility to have to do some calculations to arrive at a price.![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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