Does anyone know what the rule of thumb is for applying graphics to vehicles when their are no apparent level lines to go by. Maybe it's something that need to be eyeballed or should I be using a level? Posted by Mike Kelly (Member # 2037) on :
Sheryl, you DON'T want to use a level. If there are no apparent straight lines on the vehicle, run a thin line of masking tape down the side just below or above where the graphic or stripe will go. You can then stand back to see how it looks and make adjustments. Take a few quick measurements for the other side and mark with a stabilo. You can only see one side at a time.
Posted by David Wright (Member # 111) on :
I assume you are talking about some vans, maybe Ford in particular. Usually there is one true line towards the center of vehicle. Go off that, and disregard the contours towards the top of the vehicles. Posted by Joey Madden (Member # 1192) on :
I am not being facetious, but all I do is vehicle graphics and pinstriping with a brush. I can honestly say that I have never used a level and am totally against the use of vinyl on vehicles. Its more then an obsession with me as if irks me to see the wax build up along side the vinyl and the total disregard for design and color schemes. Most all vehicle art contains at least one color from the interior but not so with vinyl jockeys, which makes it non consistant in matching its vehicles body line and design. I find that persons entering the business through signage are the first to make this mistake. Vehicle graphics to me is as sacred as dressing yourself for a night on the town
Mike, I learned this trick along time along. When you stand in front of the vehicle and open both doors, you can see both sides. The difference between doing vehicle graphics and doing them correctly is the difference between first and second place, second place is the first loser!
Have a nice day
[ May 08, 2002, 11:13 PM: Message edited by: Joey Madden ]
Posted by Steve Nuttle (Member # 2645) on :
Hey Joey when is the last time you were "out on the town"? Get real, you will see everything from tucks to faded ripped jeans. As for wax build up, maybe you should give lessons in how to wax your car or truck. Why don't you stop walking on water and come down from heaven and walk among us mortals. I understand the idea of standing in front and seeing both doors at the same time but how does that work with interior colors? Do you turn the vehicle inside out? Maybe you should also include a shade from the owners eyes or his favorite suit. Please give me a friggin break!!! I love and respect those who can and do use a brush, but vinly has a place in this century.
Have an even nicer day!
P.S.- I'd never use a level either!!
[ May 08, 2002, 11:43 PM: Message edited by: Steve Nuttle ]
Posted by Mikes Mischeif (Member # 1744) on :
Sheryl, First let me apologize for some here who will side step your question, refuse to offer any constructive advice, yet insist on preaching thier opinion about why one aspect of this industry does not agree with them and why you should not be doing it. It gets pretty old, believe me.
These people do not reflect the majority here who are more than happy to answer your questions for beginners and experienced alike.
Since I have accepted that vinyl lettering is apart of this world and is used extensively in vehicle lettering now and forever, My advice is to keep your graphic and lettering 6" from any curved roof lines. The closer you get, the more obvious it is.
[ May 08, 2002, 11:55 PM: Message edited by: Mikes Mischeif ]
Posted by Joey Madden (Member # 1192) on :
Steve I try to be a nice guy and as I said I wasn't being facetious, it that word to big for your brain to comprehend? Maybe its because in my line of work which will be in its 50th year by the end of the summer I have seen more vehicle graphics in my travels then one living in some town in the middle of nowhere. Go run your games to some beer guzzling cowboys and leave vehicle graphics up to professionals. Oh, one more thing. I want to know, if I bought a PDR on CD and studied it, could I become a doctor?
Posted by Bruce Evans (Member # 44) on :
Brilliant Joey. Everyone bow to the master.
Go with David's advice. There's usually at least one good body line to go off of. It may be towards the bottom or it may even be a rubber molding of some sort.
Mike Duncan couldn't be more right.
Posted by Mike Kelly (Member # 2037) on :
Hey, Joey..........if you stand in front of a vehicle with both doors open, you can see both doors at the same time. If you want to see both sides, you need to take a sawzall and cut directly down the middle from front-to-rear, lean each side against a building of your choice (or prop up with 2x6's) and stand back to observe. Or, you can set up a very large mirror 10' from one side and look at it from the other. If you're off by .25in. on one side you can then make your corrections and hopefully move back into "first place".
I didn't read anywhere about using vinyl graphics in the original post. But I can understand how one would detest the thought of using vinyl on a car. Can you imagine plastic and metal on the same vehicle? Before I started painting signs, I was in the auto restyling business. I was intalling VINYL roofs and VINYL striping and VINYL side mouldings when I got out of high school in 1970. I tried painting the roofs on, but the dealers didn't go for it. Painting on side mouldings just didn't give enough protection. Vinyl is good stuff.
Urathane paint is plastic, isn't it?
BTW...great article in SBI on window lettering (using vinyl). Posted by Curtis hammond (Member # 2170) on :
Some vehicles dont merrit a super artist job. My neighbors chevy has a need for some color but it dont deserve fine hotlines. So i put some vinyl on it.
Its just the same as not putting gold fixtures in the bathroom of a trailer house. Is it really worth it?
Posted by Mark Matyjakowski (Member # 294) on :
I like/use "Spuds" idea of temp. marking it, stepping back and looking at it. The important thing is that once you find the "line" that looks right to you, use that same line on all elements.
I think what you guys are arguing in Kustom vs.commercial work. (apples vs. pork chops) IMO vinyl on a hot rod is cheesy ... yet paint on a lot of commercial vehicles may be overkill.
Posted by Glenn Taylor (Member # 162) on :
We're suppose to wax our vans? Ooops! Posted by Suelynn Sedor (Member # 442) on :
Welcome to the Bull board Sheryl!
I bet you thought this was a simple question! I'm glad you got a few good answers.
Down boys, down!
Sue
Posted by Bob Burns (Member # 268) on :
I learned THIS from Von Dutch: Do each side different from the other....you can only see one side at a time. This allows you give the customer 2 designs for the price of one! Of course, in the real world, customers want a "uniformity", so my logic goes nowhere! As far as finding a "baseline" to go by, like especially the current Ford van, use the very bottom of the rocker panel between the wheels as the START. Measure UP from there.
Posted by ScooterX (Member # 2023) on :
Hey Sheryl, bet you didn't know Joey gave fashion advice, did you? (a night on the town? all the kids in clubs these days are wearing Carhart, Ben Davis and Dickies -- pretty much what i used to call "work wear" until i switched to Hawaiian shirts).
anyway, one old timer gave me some good advice about vehicle graphics: 1. always unhitch the team before you work. 2. try to place the cart or wagon on level ground. 3. work on the shaded side of the vehicle - except in snow. 4. dont apply graphics in the rain. .... his other advice: if the wheels are wood or metal, use paint. if they're rubber, use vinyl.
(laughing, ducking and running away...)
Posted by Brian (Member # 39) on :
Paint or vinyl, If the vehicle has no real straight lines (such as the newer minivans) I tape a line right down the side and move it around until it "looks right" and use that as my baseline.
Posted by Santo (Member # 411) on :
I've got a floresent string with magnets on the ends. It moves a lot quicker than tape when repositioned. Stabilo marks are easy, when I find the right line and then tape one time.
Posted by old paint (Member # 549) on :
all vehicles have a straight line on them.....the bottom of the car below the door. most vehicles set a tad higher in the rear.....if its the ford van..you can go either way on them i got one i did lettering level with the rocker panel(bottom of truck, ahd i did another same way, guy didnt like had to redo it to line up the crooked beltline.
Posted by George Perkins (Member # 156) on :
The lettering needs to be paralell or "square" with the bottom edge of the truck. Step back and your eye will tell you which lines on the truck are square with the bottom. After awhile your eye gets to where it will do all the "leveling" I can walk up to a set of truck doors with a pattern or computer cut vinyl and stick it on by eye and it never is over an 1/8" off being square Of course I always miss the center by a good two inches hahahaha.
I noticed something in David's post I'm suprised nobody has picked up on. The line David points out is indeed paralell with the bottom of the vehicle in the template...however, on an actual new Ford van that line runs downhill towards the front of the vehicle PLUS it's slightly curved, a real nightmare if you are trying to letter right on the band that that line forms. The line on the Ford's is the next one down.
Posted by Bill Preston (Member # 1314) on :
IMHO David, George, and OP are all correct in saying the bottom of the rocker panel, or the line that David showed on the drawing are good reference lines. It is also true that the same line on Fords does pitch downward as you get towards the front. Most noticeable as it crosses the driver and passenger doors.
The drawback to using the bottom of the rocker panel and /or the bottom of pickup doors is that there is so much "tuck" or roll-under in the sheet metal, that it is difficult to hook a tape measure to it, and expect it to stay put while you make your marks.
If someone would just make a tape measure with more of a hook on the end, it would solve a lot of problems. Probably create a few new ones, too.
Posted by T.Howell (Member # 875) on :
For years I have told my pinstriping customers that I always do something a little different from one side to the other. Of course I never try, but it does cover my butt and it's fun watching them try to find "it".
I use the masking tape/eye ball method myself.
Posted by Jonathan Androsky (Member # 2806) on :
God I hate vans, I think everyone should get tiny box trucks instead.
There is some good advice here so I don't think I need to add to it. I would, however, like to make a note of a disturbing trend that I have been seeing in the industry. Now, before I start, I'm not pointing any fingers at anyone so there is no need for anyone to get their hackles up or their fangs out.
I've been seeing a trend for people to be stereotyped based on the medium that they work in. I think that this is just as dangerous as stereotyping based on race or creed.
Someone who works in vinyl is not necessarily any less professional than a hand striper. This works both ways. Not every vinyl guy, or girl uses the same stripe in a few different colors on every vehicle. Likewise, not every "kustom" painter carries around this holier than thou, look down their nose at the vinyl people attutude.
I'll get off the box now, I've babbled enough.
[ May 09, 2002, 04:17 PM: Message edited by: Jonathan Androsky ]
Posted by Jeffrey Vrstal (Member # 2271) on :
Expecting one or another lines on any vehicle to be the right one... well, I guess I would never rely on my judgement there. I try to get as close as I can, then step away and "eyeball" it a couple of times.
Seems like I can try to use that one "true" line, then back away and it just seems crooked somehow.
I lettered a big fuel truck a couple weeks ago. Some of the new ones all sit low in the back and high in the front for draining when parked. When they are on the road, they straighten out. I got a lot of crap from the guys in the shop about running the lettering uphill towards the front. The crap ended when the truck hit the road. Posted by Stephen Deveau (Member # 1305) on :
JOEY
Question Number One.
From Sheryl
Does anyone know what the rule of thumb is for applying graphics to vehicles when their are no apparent level lines to go by. Maybe it's something that need to be eyeballed or should I be using a level?
Were did this say Vinyl? The most important part was Application of Graphics.
Design Setup is Design Setup.
Vinyl,Handlettering,Airbrushing,Etc...
Dave gave the best Idea of looking for the common line on the Vehicle and work with it. One Side to the other!
So Pleae Sir! (Joey) How do we do this in the right manner as "YOU DO!"
I have to many years of doing it Wrong and am asking for some Help!!!
I need your input Please.... Posted by cheryl nordby (Member # 1100) on :
Hey Sheryl. Well you have lots of answers here. I just wanted to say hi. And most of the time if you use the bottom lines of the vehicle you will be fine. Just remember to stand back and check everything out after you have your designs taped on the vehicle. It also helps to draw a line on the transfer tape along the bottom of the letters. This should give you a good idea how the lines will all 'line up' . good luck!
Posted by aaronssigns (Member # 490) on :
OH GRAND MASTER JOEY! this young grass hopper seeks your grand wisdom.......... what are you smoking? and what cave do ya live in? and do ya kill your dinner each night by bashing it with a rock!?!?! im not here to knock you work or anyone elses and ive seen your work and yes its good..... if your into that kind of stuff.... not everyone is.....and not everyone is in love with a paint brush....or the computer....each has its place and each can be done good or bad. face it...its the year 2002 get with the program if you dont like one or the other thats fine do what you like to do...or is it what you like is running others work down to feel better about your self?
I bet if your were more open mined your work could get even better.
the dumbest person I ever met was the guy who thought he knew everything!
Posted by Harris Kohen (Member # 2139) on :
WHERES THE LOVE!!!
BTW: "What is it about CLIPART?"
Posted by LEE ATTEWELL (Member # 2407) on :
Hi Sheryl, By the time I scrolled down to the bottom of this thread I was confused...Not hard to do.
Anyway did someone suggest using a piece of masking tape at either end of the graphic before removing from the release paper? that's what I do. I then stand back have a look and if I need to change it I can really easily without damaging anything. Then before I remove the graphic from the car,I rip the tape off at the edges leaving one half still on the car and one piece on the pre mask tape. Remove from the paper and line up the tape on pre mask with tape left on car. This'll leave the graphic exactly how it looked before you removed anything.
Now I'm even more confused...I'd better go and lie down now... Hope it makes sense and it helps.
Ignore the occasional flamers you sometimes get here. Just ask whatever questions you need. There is nearly always someone eager to help. It's a great community.
Finally remember from that great philosophical encyclopedia "South Park"...
"There are no stupid questions......
Just Stupid people"
I'd know
Cheers
Posted by John Thompson (Member # 2750) on :
I use the "Space Age" technique. If inside and light permits, I use a laser chalk line. I measure up from the door sill bottom (they are usually straight on with the body lines. Put two marks equal distances up with a stabillo pencil about where I am going to be working on the vehicle at the most, set the laser level on a tripod and line the laser line up with both of the marks and bam I've got a reference line to go by. I use this on all of my large panel signs also, moving the laser line on the board where I need it. It knocks a bunch of time off of peeling off tape lines, getting rid of stabillo lines and lets me do almost everything wet and fast, just slap it up there and line it up. I now generally only use the hinge method on reverse weeded stuff.
Posted by old paint (Member # 549) on :
jon androsky..you already got 2 strickes against ya....your polish and you live in western pa.....hehehehehehehehehehehehe(before you go postal, iam from avella pa and look at my last name)
Posted by Pat Foley (Member # 2683) on :
Hi Sheryl! I'm new here too, well sort of new. I just read a lot more than I speak! I've gotta say the great majority of the Letterheads here are respectful, helpful, enlightening and enthustic! Oh, and funny!! A Mustang that has that look of 'up in the rear' would look off if the lettering was 'level'. So, I would use either the window line of the door and measure down, or the bottom of the door and measure up. I'd get myself a 'line' of the car and then line everything up with that line. Since I always want to know 'why'... and I had to keep asking here, why a level isn't used... I don't use one, but I never thought why. So again, I had to go look at my car... ahhhh! I know why... I want to give the illusion that the lettering/graphic, whatever, is part of the car and not level to the earth. Straight yes, but not level. I'm so glad to see that you're bringing out the best in everyone and learning a whole lot too! Did I hear that right? Principles before personalities? Posted by david drane (Member # 507) on :
Hi Sheryl, another way of doing vehicles is to simply distort the copy such as flag, bezier or whatever or maybe even script slightly tilted. that way if there are a lot of different body angles it won't matter where you place the graphic to the top and you can use a bottom line to line up the address and phone number presuming they are normal block letters. Vinyl is OK to use as it gives you a better chance of tilting the layout around before applying. I think vinyl on the front of vehicles is especially good because it is tougher against the bugs that get squashed there. Posted by John Martin Robson (Member # 1686) on :
I've run into this problem before. If there is no reference line to follow, this is the rule of thumb.
"THE EYE DOSEN"T LIE"
I coined the rule, and it's my gift to all of you.
This gift offer expires in 30 days, after which, please forward $39.95……….all purchases non-refundable.
Posted by Jonathan Androsky (Member # 2806) on :
Hey O P, that's Androsky with a "Y" there bucko. Slovak not polish (not that that's any better ). And what's wrong with PA? It's got some great stuff like ...... uh ...... Zippo lighters! Yeah that's it, Zippo lighters are from Bradford PA! And the roads here are fantastic .
Posted by Ed Harris (Member # 586) on :
Like you need another response... If it's vinyl you are applying, I usually try to pick the most noticable part of the design, whether by size or color, if lines are seemingly obvious, try measuring, then tape it, stand back and 'eyeball' it. If it looks bad, then measuring is not likely to fix it, no matter what line you pick to go by. Move it until you like what you see, oh, and if you're still not certain, get a second opinion. It's like the old rule "measure twice, cut once" for wood, etc, a second opinion and a little doubt correctly placed might save you a lot of time later. When you've got that main piece down, work outward from it for the rest of the design. I usually keep a print out of the design taped nearby so I can keep my bearings. As for the paint vs vinyl question, there are times when I recommend a customer get a painter 'cause I think it will look better for a particular application. 99% of the people I've known and worked with in both mediums don't seem to have a problem respecting the other, and neither do I. My momma always said "If you ain't got something nice to say, don't say anything." A few manners might go along way here.
Posted by old paint (Member # 549) on :
hahahahahahah jon.....great roads......you mean great potholes.........ive lived in fla since 1981. you know how many tie rod ends and balljoints ive replaced in that time? ZERO when i lived in pa, between that crazy inspection and bad roads....i must did one other the other every 6 months. the inspection is a rip!!!! if the mechanic tells you you need these parts so it will pass...its called "i gotcha" and i drive a 75 volvo, 74 chevy stepvan(mobile sign shop) and an 85 dodge ram vam.....hehehehehehe hey forgotabout them snowtires..studded or unstudded...hehehehehe"only thing white in pensacola is th beaches"
Posted by Dennis Keeley (Member # 2868) on :
TO BE HONEST...I DIDN'T READ ALL OF THE REPLIES SO I HOPE I'M NOT BEING REPETITIVE.
WHAT I DO IS GO TO THE BACK OF THE VAN AND FIND THE CENTER POINT BETWEEN THE BELT LINE AND THE DRIP RAIL. NOW GO TO RIGHT BEHIND THE FRONT DOOR AND DO THE SAME. CONNECT THE TWO POINT AND MAKE THE CENTER LINE
WITH THE LATE FORD VANS, NOTHING LOOKS PERFECT BUT THAT WORKS THE BEST... UNLESS YOU MAKE THE GRAPHICS TILTED ON PURPOSE(THAT WORKS THE BEST)
Posted by John Cordova (Member # 220) on :
Sheryl,
You got some pretty good ideas to go on. I prefer the masking tape, step back to check level method. I hope everything helps.
Don't pay attention to the flamers. Just pay attention to me 'cuz I invented sign painting. Oh and I also came up with all the formulas for 1-Shot and have I mentioned I invented vinyl, yup, little 'ol me. That van that David Wright posted, me again. I designed that for Ford. The Space Shuttle. Me again. The internet thing, I hate to brag but...(I only let Al Gore take credit)
Just kidding! It was Master Joey. "When you can grab the pebbles from his hand Grasshopper, then you will be worthy." Posted by Ben Sherr (Member # 2874) on :
I think you should apply the graphics, sticky side out, to the side of your shop, then power slide the vehicle broadside into them, thus transferring them to the vehicle. Pleae remember however, that some customers, for some reason, object to this method!
Posted by Stephen Deveau (Member # 1305) on :
Ben I like that one!!!
Close to the one,on (Here It Is) and you apply it FIRST! OK Sorry you placed it wrong but the price is now double for the second copy of it!!!! Posted by Joel Peters (Member # 622) on :
Hello Sheryl,
Welcome to the board. This is a great place and a great source of inspiration and knowledge. A person can get alot of help here, as proved by your own post. Lol.
David and George are right about Ford vans. I also use the very first body line that is even with the lower edge of the door window opening. I also use the lower edge of the door window opening as my straight edge for copy on the door. All I know is that it looks right rolling down the road.
That Joey really knows how to liven up a post.
Can ya dig it!
Good luck!
Joel Posted by Mark Fair Signs (Member # 289) on :
bubba perkins gave the best answer.
don't worry about all the bull#hit on the "bull"board.
you keep on asking those questions.
that's what letterville is all about.
a lettervillian.
Posted by Todd Gill (Member # 2569) on :
The eye doesn't lie??? I don't know about that...
I've seen some people that must be blind in one eye, and can't see out the other. And have you heard about the blind carpenter that picked up his hammer and saw?
And which eye doesn't lie? The right or the left? I'm being silly here of course.
I usually go by the body side molding, but if that is absent, I would go by the horizontal style line down the middle of the vehicle as David suggests, or use the bottom horizontal window line as a guide. Sometimes the windowline and the body side moldings converge, which makes it even more difficult.
I too, will usually "eye" ball the application of VINYL graphics...unless the customer is known to be super-picky, in which case I will throw a tape measure up and mark it off on both ends with a little piece of tape for alignment....mostly for show.
Just curious....has anyone ever known of a customer that will open the doors on both sides of the car, run around to the front and inspect the vehicle for exact pinstripe/graphics placement? I have only encountered this sort of anal retention once....so I cut the guy an extra set of boat numbers and gave it to him and told him to put it where he thought it should go.
Maybe I'm sloppy....but I figure if it's off an 1/8th inch or less from one end to the other...nobody's gonna notice.
[ May 14, 2002, 07:57 AM: Message edited by: Todd Gill ]
Posted by George Perkins (Member # 156) on :
Todd, thankfully only a small prportion of the population is super anal. Once I pick up on it I refuse to work for them, who needs it? I look at it as a sickness, floor mats protecting the carpets in the guys truck, nope that's not good enough, lets put some custom towels down to protect the floor mats....uhhhhhh now some newspaper to protect the towells ...ahhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!! The worst example was a friends brother in law. This guy tried his hand at dirt track racing hahahahaha, yea like that was gonna work. Anyway one day I stopped by to see his race car, he had this sharp red Chevy four door deaully. He's got it up on jack stands and all the wheels are off it and he's washing it. I asked him if he was doing a brake job. He said no he was just washing it. I asked him what he had the wheels off for. He looked at me serious as hell and said "How do you clean the inside of the tires George?"
[ May 14, 2002, 10:28 AM: Message edited by: George Perkins ]
Posted by Todd Gill (Member # 2569) on :
George,
Hahaha....now that's a great story...I guess you've got me beat. Posted by Linda Silver Eagle (Member # 274) on :
Dear Sheryl,
Nice to meet you! I just wanted to say hello and show you what I did on my Ford van. I hand lettered this with 1-Shot and folks try to tell me it's vinyl...ha ha ha. I'm taking that as a compliment. <grin>
I used paper pounce patterns and taped them into place on the ends only, so I could "eyeball" it. Once my eyes were happy-ish, I pulled out my chalk line (hooked it to the tail light frame) and adjusted the patterns so that the baselines were in line with each other. The top copy being script, was lined up as well, but from the top. I started "lining up" on the side with the sliding door track and had the luxury of the giant trim running across the bottom to measure from for the bottom lines.
One way to run an eye ball check is to go to one end of the vehicle and look down the length of it. If sompn is out of place it will stick out like a sore thumb.
Here's the link to my van, scroll down to the second and third pics to see the sides.
Either way you go, I hope it's fun and profitable!
[ May 14, 2002, 04:16 PM: Message edited by: Linda Silver Eagle ]
Posted by David Kilgore (Member # 110) on :
This is what I love about the bullboard. After a good days work I come here and have some good laughs at the spirited discussions, what passion!!! Answers that have no apparent bearing on the question. Mark, how can you call this bull *hit?
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
![[Confused]](confused.gif)
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
). And what's wrong with PA? It's got some great stuff like ...... uh ...... Zippo lighters! Yeah that's it, Zippo lighters are from Bradford PA! And the roads here are fantastic ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)